Waning participation

[John Nesbitt]

This exchange of views about weekend format reminds me of a - perhaps the - key feature of SCCA: On most any proposition, opinion will split 51/49 for/against.

This is fundamental to the club, on a par with gravity or the ground rule double. In Newtonian terms: For every opinion, there is an equal and opposite opinion.

[JoshuaJustice]

Multiple qualifyings are a complete waste of track time. This goes double if it rains Sunday morning. We had a race a couple months ago where it was dry on Saturday and rained on Sunday. Nobody went out for qualifying Sunday morning, because wearing down tread on your rain tires is counterproductive when you might need them for the race Sunday afternoon!

Had we had a 3-race weekend, we'd of course have gone out in the morning.

So the region paid however much it costs to rent a track for Saturday and Sunday and we actually went on track for 75% of the time we paid for.

Stupid.

[FVRacer21]

Since this thread is mostly abut FC, I cam across this today:

https://www.skipbarber.com/cars_post/van-diemen-fvj/

Does anyone know if this is a proprietary car for Skip Barber or is it a general for sale car?

ChrisZ

[John Nesbitt]

Since this thread is mostly abut FC, I cam across this today:

https://www.skipbarber.com/cars_post/van-diemen-fvj/

Does anyone know if this is a proprietary car for Skip Barber or is it a general for sale car?

ChrisZ

Not proprietary to Barber. FVJ has been around in the UK for at least 10 years.

[FVRacer21]

Not proprietary to Barber. FVJ has been around in the UK for at least 10 years.

I saw some older cars without wings, and it looked like a special series car and school car but not something currently being made.

I remember the Van Diemen Formula First? (not be confused with the FV First) with a transverse engine, set up, similar to a Spec Racer. Ugly as sin, they seem to have disappeared but some converted to m/c engine cars.

I wish I had seen this before stopping down to the SBRS at Lime Rock. I wonder if the F4 cars are too expensive to run around the country and this car is "back" in production, (looks like the F4 3day school is $9K! )

Interesting that this is only a 4 speed.

Could this be a lower cost competitor to FE?

ChrisZ

[R. Pare]

As an old fart who has been dealing with the club since 1973, the one thing that the club has never done well at all ( if they have even done it at all in the first place) is to actually let the public know that it exists. When was the last time that anyone saw a club display at a major auto show? How about a car or two at a local auto show? Advertise local races in the local paper? Allow even free spectators at regional or National events (yea -wrong names for these races now )?

The club has always been nicknamed the Secret Car Club of America, and for good reason - almost no one who doesn't have a friend racing in it even knows that it exists.

Until the Club and it's regions sort that out, getting new, young, members will hardly ever happen. There is little that can be done about the weekend expenses getting to and at the track ( now that the tracks know that they can get big bucks off of well heeled guys for Track Day clubs and for Pro class testing days, they have no incentive to reduce the costs to the SCCA), but they can at least TRY to get newer members by letting the public know that it exists.

[E1pix]

Exactly, Richard!

it’s inconceivable to me that there’s not a display at the SKUSA Supernationals in Vegas in November every year. Talk about a captive audience, probably 800 karts and many from international countries, and at the right time of year when many are about to move into cars.

Edith Bunker’s Dad coined “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

I don’t know what level of loss is considered as “broken” in this case, but without some affirmative action it’s pretty clear that at some point soon, there’ll be little left to fix.

[andyllc]

Exactly, Richard!

it’s inconceivable to me that there’s not a display at the SKUSA Supernationals in Vegas in November every year. Talk about a captive audience, probably 800 karts and many from international countries, and at the right time of year when many are about to move into cars.

Edith Bunker’s Dad coined “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.”

I don’t know what level of loss is considered as “broken” in this case, but without some affirmative action it’s pretty clear that at some point soon, there’ll be little left to fix.

Respectfully, the Supernats are not SCCA's audience. In general though I do agree that being visible with all of the car clubs and such is a good way to let people know about SCCA. I also think there could be some push to help people go from solo to road racing.

[E1pix]

You’re probably right, but they sure were the right audience in decades past.

(read that, karts > FF > Super Vee or Atlantic > real Pro careers)

Them Days are gone, and consistent with this thread.

[FVRacer21]

The problem with getting old, is just before you cannot remember anything, you remember everything...

Cleaning out the basement, I have about 15 years of Autoweek, and I was reading the 1974 Runoffs issue.

We forget the SCCA did not have to advertise - they had Autoweek, Car and Driver, Road & Track, Formula, National Speed Sport News*, and many more I am forgetting. The cars were featured in many of the model car magazines and even newspapers like the New York Times got into the act and many National Races had big sponsors like Cannon Cameras.

Those days are gone and we need to realize that and reinvent ourselves to stay relevant. The SCCA is already competing against not little regional organizations like EMRA or Waterford Hills, and ICSSC, but IMSA, NASA, SVRA, and USAC - even though no one is strong enough to stand totally on their own, like the SCCA was in the 1960's. There is still a lot of resource sharing.

The reason Spec Miata is so popular is that the amount of arrive and drive programs, along with all the car clubs running fender cars makes it an easy transition. Tell someone who is paying off a $70K truck that they have to lay out another $100K for a racecar, trailer, safety equipment, support equipment etc. and you see why the higher formula classes are tough to enter.

We have people balking at the cost of a $10K formula vee, which you can still tow behind a small truck, SUV or even car, yet even if you figure a first year budget of $20K on the high side, that is still less than the cost of a used car today. I just saw an article of someone who went to 9 concerts in 2023 - and spend over 3 grand - just for the tickets....

Okay, I am rambling - we have to lower the entry cost of racing. I don't think Club Spec is it. FV is holding on but barely. F600, FF and FC have (in my opinion) gotten too expensive. There are manufacturers trying to fill this void, but they have not yet - if you pardon the pun - found the right formula. The Rush SR seems to be the closest so far...

I guess the question is similar to what the Tubes asked in their song "What do you want from life?"

ChrisZ


*Still in operation as a website and more

[E1pix]

I have over a decade of Autoweeks from that era but they’re in safe keeping while we travel and likely for years more.

I’d give you $30 for that issue, my late surrogate Dad won FF that year (presuming FF was covered).

We travel with his original, career stopwatch for Good Luck.

[BLS]

"we have to lower the entry cost of racing"

FV would do just that if it were revamped (or add a FVX class). 1600 motors to the FST spec, tire/wheels as in Challenge Cup / Driverz, standard disc brakes available from every VW parts vendor, spec shocks that are inexpensive, etc. Ditch the VW linkpin front and use something from the air cooled off road crowd already available at low cost. You could even get rid of the swing axle with a spec rear suspension, simple A arms and inboard spring/shock.

I happen to think that would be one hot car with near FF times and half the cost (or better).

You cannot do anything about the track cost or travel expense, only the car expense can be cut.

[FVRacer21]

"we have to lower the entry cost of racing"

FV would do just that if it were revamped (or add a FVX class). 1600 motors to the FST spec, tire/wheels as in Challenge Cup / Driverz, standard disc brakes available from every VW parts vendor, spec shocks that are inexpensive, etc. Ditch the VW linkpin front and use something from the air cooled off road crowd already available at low cost. You could even get rid of the swing axle with a spec rear suspension, simple A arms and inboard spring/shock.

I happen to think that would be one hot car with near FF times and half the cost (or better).

You cannot do anything about the track cost or travel expense, only the car expense can be cut.

Basically you are saying a new car which would obsolete all existing Formula Vees and drive the class into oblivion. I would like to see some changes, but think a 3 year moratorium on car class changes would be best. It is better to get everyone up to the same level without increasing costs. In the NE we are working on the tire situation; however, I could make the argument that the current spec tire, since many drivers only do 4 weekends a year, could be stretched for 2 seasons. The biggest problem is we are winding the engines so high that you run into issues, Run a long box and watch your revs and you can be competitive and have a lot of fun. We don't want FF times, we have 30 car fields and are quite happy where we are.

"You cannot do anything about the track cost or travel expense, only the car expense can be cut." That is right. Then how come so many people want $1900 exhaust systems, $2000 worth of shocks, radios, data acquisition systems, etc. in FV? And in the end do not go any faster....? Now if you want to run at the pointy end of Nationals - sorry Majors - it is a money game. It should not be. But regional racing, where most of the money is made or lost by the regions - is a number of entrants problem. When people know they have a stable race class with good technical support, they are willing to invest.

Now what I have been afraid of for 25 years, is that someone will come along with the right car and right program and basically obsolete all existing formula cars. I have done some research on the Rush SR and they are up to 40K, but are working with Grid Life and doing rental programs. You will be surprised how much better a rental looks, when you don't have to feed a tow car, trailer, tool box, supplies etc. Yes you cannot do anything about the track cost or travel expense but how much of the travel expense is the car and all it's spares traveling? What keeps most of us going is we are willing to trade our time and experience to offset owing our own car. And that should never be eliminated or underestimated. But is is not for everyone.

ChrisZ

[BLS]

I have no disagreement with what you said. The entry level participant that is cost conscious needs a class where an exhaust system is not $1900 and shocks can be purchased for under $500 for all four (or three ) corners. I wouldn't touch FV as it is, just add an alternate spec with much more restriction to control costs. If that doesn't bring in the entry level folks then they can't be brought in. FV drivers could choose to stay in the FV class and I'm sure most would given their level of investment. But the cars that are sitting could be modified to be competitive in a new class that costs less on an annual basis. Will that improve things? Likely not as it may just be that new blood for the sport doesn't really exist and it's not cost that is the problem.

[Rick Kirchner]

"Basically you are saying a new car which would obsolete all existing Formula Vees and drive the class into oblivion."

This has been the argument since forever. People are willing to pay $$$$ to rebuild a 1200 rather than eat the cost of a 1600 that will go much longer. Eliminate all the hand labor to restricted engines as much as possible. go to readily available parts as much as possible. Will it hurt the class? Did running out of good brake drums until Richard made some hurt the class?

This BS is what killed the AC supervees as much as the WC supervees killed them. Hey, the original motor was a 1600 so lets force VW to make a 1600 Type IV that was never offered in a street car". "Oh, VW no longer makes the AC 1600 kits? Well, just take a 1700 and modify it until its a grenade"

Things must advance, especially when the advance leads to reduced operating costs.

[B Farnham]

"Basically you are saying a new car which would obsolete all existing Formula Vees and drive the class into oblivion."

This has been the argument since forever. People are willing to pay $$$$ to rebuild a 1200 rather than eat the cost of a 1600 that will go much longer. Eliminate all the hand labor to restricted engines as much as possible. go to readily available parts as much as possible. Will it hurt the class? Did running out of good brake drums until Richard made some hurt the class?

This BS is what killed the AC supervees as much as the WC supervees killed them. Hey, the original motor was a 1600 so lets force VW to make a 1600 Type IV that was never offered in a street car". "Oh, VW no longer makes the AC 1600 kits? Well, just take a 1700 and modify it until its a grenade"

Things must advance, especially when the advance leads to reduced operating costs.

Maybe a 1600 engine could be built to be more reliable but the FST isn't. If you look at your typical FST weekend it seems like 1/3rd of the cars don't make it to the end of a weekend due to engine issues.

Speaking to current FV engine builders the FST rules were written to save money with initial costs but in the long run ends up costing more with a lack of longevity.

Think about the Pinto vs Zetec once the Zetec was introduced how many pinto cars were parked? Same with the Honda vs the Kent. That's what would happen with adding a 1600 option.

FV is doing well right now and with SCCAs attack on open wheel it's not a good time to fracture the class.

FV has done so well from stable rules, what other class can you run a car built in the late 80s or early 90s and still have a chance to win the runoffs?

Those that are in the class now aren't asking for changes, it's those on the outside looking in.

Brian

[FVRacer21]

...........

Things must advance, especially when the advance leads to reduced operating costs.

The late, great Bill Noble believed in slow, controlled evolution of Formula Vee. The problem with 1600 is that performance creep is inevitable. Formula First is a great class, if we were a country the size of Ireland or England with 100 cars total. When Formula First came on the scene there was still 600+ FVs in the US. If you look at FV today, most of the engine parts are the same price. The cases took the biggest jump, the other cost in the engine are the manifold and exhaust system - if we had stuck with the original four individual pipes would we have an issue? (not suggesting that) The good thing is that as the number of participants decreased, lots of older parts came on the market - many FV drivers are hoarders. So there are really a lot of good parts out there - they just have to be located and sourced.

But how do we look at FV and compare to other classes? Well we used to get 25 races on a bottom end before a rebuild. But put in electronic ignition and special valve springs; now the engines will rev past 6800 when they would float at 6100. That outdoes everything that synthetic oil bought us and more. And of course with the new rpm came carb, manifold and exhaust development. Instead of fixing the weak parts that have to do with reliability, we fix the weak parts that have to do with performance. Then the law of unintended consequences kicks in. As I said, better oils made more of a difference in the relatability of FV engines than any other change.

How does that relate to other classes? Well I am on record that S2000 should never have gone monocoque and some of the Spec Racer guys I spoke to are against the sequential tranny. FF probably waited too long before getting an alternate engine and it probably should have been a carbureted Mazda or Toyota. Should stressed engines and transmissions have been allowed in FF? Was the Swift too revolutionary? On the other hand Super Vee was always a pro class. Think back on most classes started by a manufacturer - not the ones build from a specific manufacturer's parts - Shelby Can Am anyone? Classes like Spec Miata developed organically.

BTW - I am not sure that disc brakes have brought many new drivers to FV - it is the sharing of knowledge and guidance to new drivers that has made the difference.

The wild card is human nature. When I raced HO slot cars in the 70's, the "open" class became so expensive and car or the week. We wrote the rules for a spec class - will a little car prep. The racing in the spec class was great, but when people realized they might not be great drivers, they gravitated back to the open classes where money bought speed.

You can still see this in slot car racing today - there are "stock" classes running similar to those 50 years ago and unlimited classes where you can barely see the cars when running.

Have some fun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWHrzcLgjRk.
Unlimited class https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AaA04XVxnc.
T-Jet class https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB9lUNVzvkA

As they say, hindsight is 20/20. Every rule change should be evaluated on performance, cost, parts availability and long term sustainability. And how to implement a change is as important as the change itself. Too often a good idea is rushed to market.

ChrisZ

[Runningcut]

[JoshuaJustice]

...some of the Spec Racer guys I spoke to are against the sequential tranny.

From what I've heard, the issue was that when they went from Gen 2 to Gen 3 engine (due to the Gen 2 engine no longer being supported by Ford) people started grenading their transmissions. SCCA-E started shopping around for replacement transmissions that had manufacturer support and due to the general decline of manual transmissions in automotives the only replacement that was really on offer that was suitable for the SRF was SADEV's. They tested it out, lap times were "close enough" (I have gotten the impression it turned out to be more of an advantage than they thought), and they went for it. After the first batch of SADEVs were bought, they eventually found out the issue with the old H-pattern was actually due to a manufacturing defect in a batch of the H-patterns, and those were the ones were getting destroyed. Had that been known, they probably wouldn't have made the jump to the SADEV - but once they did, they had no way of putting that genie back in the bottle.

For what it's worth, once you eat the cost, it's a hell of a lot of fun to drive - and supposedly it lasts longer than the old manuals did anyway (even without the hardening issue). That'll remain to be seen, of course, but it could well work out that if you race it for 4 or 5 seasons you come out ahead even with the massive up-front cost.