FA @ 2022 Runoffs

[bill gillespie]

Am I correct that only 4 cars started the Runoffs ? WTF ?
Thank you CRB

[J Leonard]

Seven entered, six started, four finished.

[Steve Demeter]

That is just plain awful. FA needs to stay as a National Class. It is Club Racing's PREMIER CLASS!!!

[bill gillespie]

Seven entered, six started, four finished.

I didn’t see any laps on but 4…. I must have overlooked them

[jcolley]

I was surprised to see almost as many F1000s as traditional FAs. Low turnout of the class overall though.

[John Nesbitt]

That is just plain awful. FA needs to stay as a National Class. It is Club Racing's PREMIER CLASS!!!

At the risk of starting a flame war, the day may be approaching then FA gets folded into FX.

[lowside67]

I didn’t see any laps on but 4…. I must have overlooked them

Romer and Seaber came together on first lap and both retired I believe, hence 6 started but only 4 with laps.

-Mark

[bill gillespie]

Romer and Seaber came together on first lap and both retired I believe, hence 6 started but only 4 with laps.

-Mark

that explains it … thanks… hope no one was injured .

[Lotus7]

It was as painful to watch as the results suggest…..

and FX started 4 cars, P1 started 8, and FC will start 13 at most…. Sad!

[jcolley]

that explains it … thanks… hope no one was injured .

Don't think so. Romer lost the rear and start to spin, Seaber slowed and went wide to try and avoid him, ended up out in the outfield trying to make his away around, but Romer's tail backed into him and caught a tire either punctured or sliced, but it was visibly off the wheel.

[rockbeau25]

It was as painful to watch as the results suggest…..

and FX started 4 cars, P1 started 8, and FC will start 13 at most…. Sad!

FC could’ve had 16 if the true FC and USF cars were let in instead of propping up FX.

[E1pix]

My first Runoffs was viewed 50 years ago this Thanksgiving weekend, near Flowery Branch, so almost religiously went to the following 11 Runoffs of the next 13. Couldn’t possibly not.

While it was absolutely great to see 29 Vees, having such small fields of formula classes that helped build my lifetime passion just makes me sad.

[BLS]

Economic conditions likely had an effect on participation this year.

[stonebridge20]

Economic conditions likely had an effect on participation this year.

41 FF's entered WGI Vintage Racers Group last weekend.
80+ BMW club cars in one group

I doubt economics played a roll in the dismal fields at the Runoffs this year.
There's just more and some better options these days. The days of SCCA being the only game in town are long over.

[Teuobk]

As someone who went last year but not this year, two primary factors come to mind:

1. VIR, while a nice track, isn't exactly a bucket-list track in the same way that Indy was.
2. A lot of people in the FA race last year felt they got screwed by the club. A decent number vowed to quit the class over it (and I know at least some have followed through on that threat). The FA-class meeting after the race last year, in which the race director apologized for the bad call to end the race very early but then said nothing could be done about it, was heated to say the least.

[tige00]

Yes FA should be the premier class but scca screwed them by diluting with f1000 what's that move, what did the true FA have to give up for this merge, I suspect that's the reason plus many others

[E1pix]

I could be wrong but thought it the other way around...

That Atlantics race unchanged, and F1000s are allowed more motor tricks.

FA — or FB as Atlantic cars were known until the ‘80s if I correctly recall — have been a favorite passion of mine since their start, more so since the Gilles days, and ever since. These cars blasting from under the Bridge at Road Atlanta is right there in my RAM with F5000, Can-Am, F1, whatever, and holds its own forever.

But at Club level, budgets and all considered, sadly they’ve peaked in running costs as to struggle filling grids.

I’d hate to see them going away. If mixing with F1000 saves the show, wonderful cars in their own right, the ticket price seems like a great deal.

[lowside67]

I could be wrong but thought it the other way around...

That Atlantics race unchanged, and F1000s are allowed more motor tricks.

FA — or FB as Atlantic cars were known until the ‘80s if I correctly recall — have been a favorite passion of mine since their start, more so since the Gilles days, and ever since. These cars blasting from under the Bridge at Road Atlanta is right there in my RAM with F5000, Can-Am, F1, whatever, and holds its own forever.

But at Club level, budgets and all considered, sadly they’ve peaked in running costs as to struggle filling grids.

I’d hate to see them going away. If mixing with F1000 saves the show, wonderful cars in their own right, the ticket price seems like a great deal.

I believe that they slightly played with restrictors and minimum weights as well on the "original" FA cars, not just to balance with F1000, but also to reduce the dominance of the 016.

That said, I think the idea that a couple mm smaller restrictor is to blame for the lack of interest in FA is a bit hard to rationalize. In my opinion, the combination of extreme running costs, very sophisticated setup needs, and frankly the driving required creates a super small number of people who want to take on that "work" for a "fun" club racing trophy.

Just my $0.02 but to me that seems intuitive.

-Mark

[Peter Ruggiero]

It is indeed a sad state of affairs when perhaps the best open wheel class in North American club racing doesn't field a sizeable grid for the run-offs. There are a lot of factors, I am not sure cost is really one of them because Atlantics (014&016s) are still showing up in SVRA, FRP and a few during the season high profiles SCCA events. One of the contributing factors of greater participation in years past was viable pro series that provided a ready supply of older yet still highly competitive chassis into the ranks of Club Racing. When you think about it Swift 014 and 016s are15 to 20 years old yet still highly competitive, but it is reflective that the last pro Atlantic series was in 2009. Not to be nostalgic and I'll avoid the lack of chassis diversity soap box, but there are simply to many classes today that produce too many choices. Racing appeared to be a lot better when the choices where FV, FF, F2000, FAtl. No solutions just observations...

[TexasDad]

If anyone can send a letter to convince the CRB to allow it, I know all three SCCA members who own Formula Renault 2.0s petitioned the CRB to run in FA and are ready and willing to join the FA grid if the CRB will reconsider their denial. We can't podium against Atlantics, but could give the Pro Mazda crowd some cars to compete with/beat up on, and we would all have a lot of fun. FRP has already said they will let us in Atlantic Open next year, so thankful for that.

[tige00]

Yes who would want to own a true FA and have to add smaller restrictors and add weight. Nobody
Scca did it to csr when dsr merged all cars got single inlet restrictors and ever since they have had small fields scca knows how to stick it to its customers

[Stan Clayton]

I could be wrong but thought it the other way around...

That Atlantics race unchanged, and F1000s are allowed more motor tricks.

FA — or FB as Atlantic cars were known until the ‘80s if I correctly recall — have been a favorite passion of mine since their start, more so since the Gilles days, and ever since. These cars blasting from under the Bridge at Road Atlanta is right there in my RAM with F5000, Can-Am, F1, whatever, and holds its own forever.

Many people don't realize that the FA class has been changing for at least 40 years. In 1982 (IIRC) five V8-powered FAs showed up for the Runoffs, with just 3 taking the checkers. The BoD immediately relegated them to Regional status (FS) and elevated the then-FB cars (1600cc auto engines) to FA. They were then flat-bottom cars with tube frame or aluminum chassis. Over the years they grew tunnels and composite chassis, bigger engines, more gears, etc.

The F-1000 cars received the FB designation in 2006 and are now the de facto growth area in FA. Of course FRP adds complexity with their competing series, but I hope (and will be work toward) getting more cars at the Runoffs next year to avoid relegation. Who wants to help?

If anyone can send a letter to convince the CRB to allow it, I know all three SCCA members who own Formula Renault 2.0s petitioned the CRB to run in FA and are ready and willing to join the FA grid if the CRB will reconsider their denial. We can't podium against Atlantics, but could give the Pro Mazda crowd some cars to compete with/beat up on, and we would all have a lot of fun. FRP has already said they will let us in Atlantic Open next year, so thankful for that.

The only thing holding FR2 cars from FA is the lack of a rules-compliant main roll hoop. Tatuus has an approved design. If you wish to enter FA buy one, bolt it on, and enter races. (Tip: if their engineer of the era has retired I still have a copy of the FEA study they provided SCCA. I was on the CRB at the time.)

Yes who would want to own a true FA and have to add smaller restrictors and add weight. Nobody
Scca did it to csr when dsr merged all cars got single inlet restrictors and ever since they have had small fields scca knows how to stick it to its customers

Hi Mike! I understand your frustration, but...
1. All P1 and P2 cars do NOT require SIRs or even inlet restrictors. Please consult the GCR.
2. C/DSR and P1/2 car participation has always (since 1944) vacillated up and down, and on several occasions been close to relegation, so the current situation is not unique.
3. We can overcome this latest challenge by banding together to grow our participation and Runoffs attendance. The rules are clear...let's meet them!

[TexasDad]

The only thing holding FR2 cars from FA is the lack of a rules-compliant main roll hoop. Tatuus has an approved design. If you wish to enter FA buy one, bolt it on, and enter races. (Tip: if their engineer of the era has retired I still have a copy of the FEA study they provided SCCA. I was on the CRB at the time.)

Sadev gearbox with 6 forward gears that is not listed as a spec line car is another problem from my read of the rules. Maybe I am not reading them correctly. I would love to be shown with a roll hoop mod we could get it in.

[RussMcB]

<snip> In 1982 (IIRC) five V8-powered FAs showed up for the Runoffs, with just 3 taking the checkers. The BoD immediately relegated them to Regional status (FS) ... <snip>

Interesting. I assumed FS was just a more-recent (this century) class.

[Mike B]

The F-1000 cars received the FB designation in 2006 and are now the de facto growth area in FA. Of course FRP adds complexity with their competing series, but I hope (and will be work toward) getting more cars at the Runoffs next year to avoid relegation.

FRP runs under the F1000 rules that were created by the SCCA 16 years ago. It seems to me that the SCCA created complexity by completely revising the engine rules and forcing a relatively low-cost class into one of the most expensive classes.

The only thing holding FR2 cars from FA is the lack of a rules-compliant main roll hoop. Tatuus has an approved design. If you wish to enter FA buy one, bolt it on, and enter races. (Tip: if their engineer of the era has retired I still have a copy of the FEA study they provided SCCA. I was on the CRB at the time.)

If I understand this correctly, the FR2 roll hoop is good enough for FX but not for FA? What am I missing?

[Purple Frog]

Not meaning to rain on anyone's parade.... but.... Road Atlanta rents for $90K per weekend and they are booked solid.

It ain't economics effecting "old class" participation.

[Stan Clayton]

Sadev gearbox with 6 forward gears that is not listed as a spec line car is another problem from my read of the rules. Maybe I am not reading them correctly. I would love to be shown with a roll hoop mod we could get it in.

I forgot about the gearbox, but just like the Pro Formula Mazda (and other odd balls in FA) you just specify this deviation when writing your spec line.

[Stan Clayton]

Interesting. I assumed FS was just a more-recent (this century) class.

I'm not sure when FS was created, as my collection of printed GCRs were lost in the fire, but my electronic copy (PDF) from 2002 has it listed. In any case, the original FA cars were not outlawed following the 1982 Runoffs. They were relegated to Regional status and presumably entered as FS cars, since every car must list a class.

[Stan Clayton]

FRP runs under the F1000 rules that were created by the SCCA 16 years ago. It seems to me that the SCCA created complexity by completely revising the engine rules and forcing a relatively low-cost class into one of the most expensive classes.

What I meant, and wasn't clear about, is that FRP is 'complicating' SCCA's FA class viability by directly poaching entries from that class. They're doing the same thing in FF & FC, but those classes are starting from much larger base populations. They're free to do that, of course, but people who blame SCCA's rules making as causing the decline in numbers are missing or ignoring THE major factor (IMO) in the loss of entries.

If I understand this correctly, the FR2 roll hoop is good enough for FX but not for FA? What am I missing?

You're missing that the FR2's roll hoop is not legal in any SCCA class, so if the club has approved the cars in a given class, that is a conscious decision to set aside its own rules (like approving 6-sp gearboxes).

IMO the whole FR2 argument is a red herring on SCCA's part. The OEM roll hoop meets FIA's stringent safety standards. SCCA insisting on its own seat-of-the-pants standard is missing the forest for the trees. It all goes back to the BoD's early 2000's fight with Fran-Am & Renault Sport over the FR1.6 & FR2 cars, and I suspect the BoD is still carrying a grudge over it.

[Mike B]

What I meant, and wasn't clear about, is that FRP is 'complicating' SCCA's FA class viability by directly poaching entries from that class. They're doing the same thing in FF & FC, but those classes are starting from much larger base populations. They're free to do that, of course, but people who blame SCCA's rules making as causing the decline in numbers are missing or ignoring THE major factor (IMO) in the loss of entries.

SCCA rules making is the exact reason that FRP is "poaching" entries.
-Eliminating F1000: F1000 owners want to keep their costs down and continue to run the car they have been for 16 years, not spend $15-20K on a built engine that lasts one weekend.
-Not classifying USF2 in FC: As mentioned elsewhere, FRP hasn't had a problem with parity.
-Probably something in FA I don't know about: There must be a reason only three true Atlantics showed up at VIR.

I also wouldn't call it poaching, more like drivers are voting with their checkbook. FRP offers a better option for open-wheel cars, at least in the East/Northeast, without the politics.

You're missing that the FR2's roll hoop is not legal in any SCCA class, so if the club has approved the cars in a given class, that is a conscious decision to set aside its own rules (like approving 6-sp gearboxes).

FR2 is a spec line in FX so the roll hoop is safe enough for that class.

IMO the whole FR2 argument is a red herring on SCCA's part. The OEM roll hoop meets FIA's stringent safety standards. SCCA insisting on its own seat-of-the-pants standard is missing the forest for the trees. It all goes back to the BoD's early 2000's fight with Fran-Am & Renault Sport over the FR1.6 & FR2 cars, and I suspect the BoD is still carrying a grudge over it.

Totally agree. However, I believe the red herring is so that they can have additional cars to prop up FX, same reason they won't move USF2 to FC.

[Amon]

My first Runoffs was viewed 50 years ago this Thanksgiving weekend, near Flowery Branch, so almost religiously went to the following 11 Runoffs of the next 13. Couldn’t possibly not.

While it was absolutely great to see 29 Vees, having such small fields of formula classes that helped build my lifetime passion just makes me sad.

Last year at Indy, I believe we had 48 or 49 vee's in attendance for the Runoff''s. The problem with VIR, although it's a very nice track is the location and the pita it is to get there from the west and north. It's only been three years since they last ran there so the bloom is off the rose and the lack of many decent hotels also contribute to the lack of entries. I spoke with several west coast drivers last fall and they said it was way too far to tow etc... I hate to see what the numbers are in 23' as the 22' entries were down by 1/3 compared to a few years ago at VIR, and add a poor economy which looks to be continuing into 23' could lead to many entry issue's. The SCCA might want to consider bringing back the qualifying requirements they had in 21' until the economy improves and a new venue which is more centralized in the country emerges.

Mark

[problemchild]

-Probably something in FA I don't know about: There must be a reason only three true Atlantics showed up at VIR.

FA is no longer on any path to any where.
Any well-funded young racer will be on the "road to Indy". As a result, with a few exceptions, the FA drivers are wealthy gentlemen racers who like driving fast cars. They don't care about competition or supporting one series. As a result, three go to an FRP event, then 3 go to a SVRA event, then three go to a SCCA event. Herding cats would be an easier project.

Speaking as an outsider, just group all these "partial classes" into one class as a "participation" class, whether you call it Formula Libre, FA, or FX. This allows racers with FA, PFM, F1000, FR, FM, F4, F3, etc to support their local events or travel to Showcase events as they wish. Don't bother trying to equalize them. Just let them participate.

The CRB/BOD needs to admit that FX was a failure and put the USF VDs into FC and give FC a few years to survive or fade away (At which point, it gets absorbed into the catch all class above).

[problemchild]

I suspect the BoD is still carrying a grudge over it.

The BoD holding a grudge. Nahhhhhhhhh! An old boys club holding a grudge? That would never happen. Next thing you will tell us is they don't like the power, and taking care of their friends.

[Jeff Read]

When the v8 Fa's (F5000) were relegated to regional status , they were put into ASR

[Stan Clayton]

FA is no longer on any path to any where.

True dat.

Speaking as an outsider, just group all these "partial classes" into one class as a "participation" class, whether you call it Formula Libre, FA, or FX. This allows racers with FA, PFM, FR, FM, F4, F3, etc to support their local events or travel to Showcase events as they wish. Don't bother trying to equalize them. Just let them particpate.[/QUOTE]I'm not exactly advocating this solution, but it's also not the worst idea I've heard. Oh, and we already have this class...it's called FS.

[Stan Clayton]

disrenevermind

[problemchild]

We already have this class...it's called FS.

FS is a regional class. Generally speaking, SCCA mostly cares about entries at ST and Majors events. Having a FS/FA/FX catch-all class at these events keeps those entry numbers up and keeps them from going vintage racing.

[Stan Clayton]

FS is a regional class. Generally speaking, SCCA mostly cares about entries at ST and Majors events. Having a FS/FA/FX catch-all class at these events keeps those entry numbers up and keeps them from going vintage racing.

Sure, but you suggested Formula Libre, et al, so if we're going to make a catch-all class, why not promote an already existing one. After all "FB" went from a long retired class designation to a National Class, literally overnight.

It's all good. We're just chatting.

[Mike B]

Why do they all have to go into a single class? Just make it requirement that FA, F1000, PFM, FR, FM, F4, F3, etc. must always be in the same run group. They can each then run their own race within a race without affecting a typical weekend schedule. Then it's up to each individual class to encourage more entrants so there is more competition. This is what happens on a typical race weekend anyway. Why get all wrapped up in combining cars into a single class?

I know, this is where someone points out that it won't work at the Runoffs. At some point we have to stop letting a single race dictate what a majority of competitors do during the other 51 weeks of the year.

[M.Sauce]

41 FF's entered WGI Vintage Racers Group last weekend.
80+ BMW club cars in one group

I doubt economics played a roll in the dismal fields at the Runoffs this year.
There's just more and some better options these days. The days of SCCA being the only game in town are long over.

Just like every issue that arises with SCCA,they are late to realize and slow to react.Although VIR is a great racetrack logistically it is difficult except for those on the east coast and it has only been a few years since the Runoffs was there.Next year could be worse than this year.As far as FA the Runoffs has never seen big numbers from that class. I have a PFM and was at Indy.The Indy FA race was poorly handled and I chose not to run this year.