Hints and tips on driving FV?

[Halifax]

Hi Gents,
I just picked up a 1982 Lynx and am getting ready for my first SCCA racing school session at Lime Rock. I drove the Vee once so far, at an SCCA SoloII event last weekend, but have no track experience with it. I have two years of HPDEs in my '07 MINI Cooper JCW (18 events) at Lime Rock, WGI, New Hampshire, and Pocono. Since I live 10 miles NE of Lime Rock Park, I get to watch a lot of SCCA races and I've enjoyed the FV sessions the most. So now I'm jumping in and ready to go.

There is not a lot of info out there on driving FVs. I'm moving from tracking a FWD, front engine MINI to a RWD, rear engine racer. What should I expect? How is power handled in turns? What's the braking like (again, I'm coming from 4 wheel discs and Carbotech XP10/XP8 track pads)? Does the class allow (and if so, does anyone make) track shoes?

What's the max windout on the RPMs? What's the proper shift point? On a track like LRP, are you running mostly in 3rd or 4th? Double-clutching going on? Any quirks about shifting? Is it synchromesh for downshifting into 1st? In my autocross sessions, I was having a bit of trouble catching my shifting right.

Regarding the air cooled thing, what's the alert point for cylnder head temperature? Let's say I wanted to check the oil, which my reading indicates needs to happen warm .. . how long does she run before she's warm? What's the max amount of time to sit with the motor running?

Thanks for any help.

Harry
NW Connecticut

[Purple Frog]

You need to connect with a local FV guy and have a nice chat. Mike Rand lives in Sharon, and he knows everybody. Call him and he'll get you introduced to somebody right quick like.
860-364-5252

[Daryl DeArman]

Welcome Harry.

Did you buy the car from Harry out in CA?

Anyway----basics:

On the track you will only use 3-4th. No double clutch required.

Braking---there are racing shoes available. I only raced FV for a couple of years. Fairly successful at it---never used anything but stock shoes, never replaced them either.

Max rpms---talk to your motor builder---probably something in the 6500-6700 range unless you have something special.

CHT or OT--again talk to your motor builder. Personally, I started at the 5 minute signal on grid and didn't overheat while sitting there. Depends on cooler size, ambient temp, oil type, bearing clearances, etc.

I liked to keep my oil temp below 250.

Oil level.....don't know what you have for a dipstick. Overfilling by a quart is about the norm. Now if you have a non-stock dipstick no telling how it has been marked. Capacity will vary based on sump extension, oil line, filter size and cooler size.

Like Frog says hook up with someone local. But those are the very basic answers to your questions.

[sracing]

All good answers so far. (However idling in the grid for 5 minutes is a bit long without the fan. Most everyone starts at about 3 minutes.) You can check the oil when warm or cold, but check it as it's idling. When idling the oil level should be at least at the VW full mark and maybe a 1/2 inch more. This depends somewhat on how your engine is plumbed and your builder's recommendations.

Oil temp above 180 and below 250. (Although 260+ at the end of the race on a warm day is acceptable.) Make sure you are using a synthetic. Normally a 30W. (Or 10W-30)
It is a flat tappet cam with high contact point pressures so use a "race" oil. Normally marked "For Off road use only" (Valvoline, Mobile and Red Line all make it.)

In regards to CHT's. They vary wildly depending upon where taken, ambient temps and head cooling design. I would not bother with them, unless you want a benchmark for your car in the future. You want them as cool as possible, but comparing numbers to other FV's and or deciding what is a good number is problematic.
One or 2 EGT's or 02's are nice for jetting purposes,but if this has been done correctly onthe dyno for your elevation range you should be OK.

Also.. Everyone hangs out with the GT-1 and winged cars. So the FV guys are lonely and are always happy to help each other out. Plus they mostly all use the same spare parts. So hook up with them and they will be happy to help.

You might also want to purchase "Getting Started in FV". It doesn't cover much on driving but it does cover most of the normal maintenance and set up issues. It also provides info on required tools, spare parts, licensing, safety tech, and more. ($12.50 plus shipping.) We also carry all the parts you need and build/rebuild FV engines.


Jim
859-252-2496

[problemchild]

There is a very active FV community in that area. I am sure you will meet many of them before you get the car off the trailer.
If you want to talk with some before, I would start with Dick Stewart (fvrentals.com), 518-674-1010. Dick can direct you to people that may live close to you.
At some point, you will want to meet up with Steve Pastore (VSR) 203-778-2337 who is the local FV guru (parts, fab, service).
Have fun!

[Daryl DeArman]

All good answers so far. (However idling in the grid for 5 minutes is a bit long without the fan. Most everyone starts at about 3 minutes.)

Well our 5 minute board has never really been "5 minutes". I at least wanted my OT gauge to be off the peg before I rolled off the grid.

[sracing]

Well our 5 minute board has never really been "5 minutes". I at least wanted my OT gauge to be off the peg before I rolled off the grid.

Agreed. That is why a synthetic is so important. In dyno tests here at 130-150 or higher deg, synthetic is producing about all the HP you are going to get. For non-synth 180 is a better number. Heating the oil on the grid is a trade-off. You want the oil warm, but the heads cool. IMO, 2-3 minutes on the grid at idle and the pace lap is the best way to achieve the best balance. (or an oil preheater )

Jim

[budawe]

Jim is correct on pregrid running. Anything over a couple of minutes and your cooking the heads. Don't worry too much about the oil timp. Don't forget, you'll be on a pace lap for a few minutes. If it's the first session in the morning try running the engine in the pits several times in short durations (1 to 2 minutes) to warm things up.

[2BWise]

I'm in the same boat with you! Except I'm doing my first race in it this weekend.

All the input so far I've heard before but its always nice to be hearing consistent info from different sources.

I have a brake pedal question. The pedal seems to be a bit "long". It takes quite a bit of motion to get to the maximum braking force. I'm used to a very short pedal but am not sure it is possible with the drum brakes. What kind of travel should I expect? Should I expect to be relatively long in comparison to other formula cars, or is there something not right with my car and it should match other formulas.

Thanks,
Bill

[rickjohnson356]

In my early FV days, "a long time ago in a far away land..", I noticed a major improvement when I went to braided brake lines rather than the stock rubber VW brake lines at the wheels.

That would eliminate some of the issue.

Now, I wouldn't even think about having rubber brake lines on a race car.

I would hope that by now, 2009, all race cars would hav the braided lines.

[sracing]

I have a brake pedal question. The pedal seems to be a bit "
long".ll

Bill,

With drums (especially Vees) you are always going to have a bit longer pedal. Assuming it is not spongey and they are bled with good lines, all the movement is going to be in the brake drum adjustment. You should be able to turn the adjusting starwheels until the drums lock (by hand), then back off each starwheel one or two clicks. THe drum should then turn freely. If it requires more clicks than that, your pedal will get longer and longer.
Also, you want -3 brake lines. If you have -4 the pedal will also be a bit longer.

After you hit the brakes on a drummed car, the springs pull the shoes back to their adj. point. The farther back that is the more fluid that has to be moved the next time you use the brakes. Disc brake pads move VERY little, thus not much pedal movement.

With proper adjustments, you should get a good firm pedal without too much movement.

Jim

[problemchild]

While braided lines will help if you have stock-style VW lines ..... chances are you need to adjust your brake shoes. Fronts need to be done every day, sometimes every session at certain tracks, and rears probably every other day (or other weekend once you get it figured out). Screw driver goes through the drum! Different techniques for different people and different brake shoes .... but something that needs regular attention.

If you have braided lines and adjusted brakes ..... and your pedal is still long ..... you have a component problem.

An experienced Vee guy can show you all this stuff in less time than people can explain it. Lots of them in MI .... find one!

[Halifax]

Thanks for the great info, gents. I've also hooked up with both Dick Stewart and Steve Pastore by phone and I'm renting one of Dick's cars for the SCCA race school on June 19 so that I won't have to deal with any car issues during the school.

I'm going to deliver my Vee to Dick or Steve for a thorough inspection before I put it on the track .. hopefully I'll get to hang out during the inspection and learn a few things.

Thanks again for all of the great info here.
Harry

[rickjohnson356]

Since you are new to racing and this car is new to you, I would suggest that to make the inspection contingent upon you being able to attend and learn what to look for. It may take them a little longer to do it since there will be some teaching going on, but it will be worth it to you to obtain the knowledge.

It might cost a little more beacause of the extra time either one will have to take, but it will pay many dividends when you are at the track and have any issues. Even if you can't fix it right there, you can better describe and perhaps locate the cause of the problem later.

FV guys are very helpful about spreading the knowledge around. The more you know, the better overall experience you will have.

[Halifax]

Thanks Rick. I will definitely compensate them for the extra time.

[smsazzy]

If you don't already have a checklist for your pre-weekend maintenance and your pre-session routine, send me an email at saslow(at)comcast(dot)net and I will shoot you a copy. Especially at the beginning it is easy to forget to do something.

Good luck!

[Halifax]

Email sent!

[SMac35]

One important thing....Don't mash the gas when you get a little loose in a FV like you do with FWD, I switched to an ITA Civic Si at my drivers school (after the engine blew in FV) drove it like a FV, and bumped some tires! I let off when I got sideways instead of mashing and steering.

While we're on the subject, I (my dad, I ran out of money) just bought a regional engine from Dave Carr. If I run 20W 50 oil, instead of 10w 30, would the fill level change due to a thicker oil? Also, why would the braided lines have an advantage over rubber? My brakes had a huge amount of throw in them at my drivers school I only completed 10 laps cuz my engine blew) , and they don't work until I press them all the way down, way, way down. They were adjusted, but maybe they came loose in the trailer or something.

Thanks For all the Help,
Steven,
and yes I will be buying Getting Started in FV!

[sracing]

Steve,

No the oil weight you use will not define the oil level you will want. (Allthough in some cases you could GET BY with a slight less amount of higher viscosity oil.) Not a good idea though. Use the oil and level recommended by your builder. (it appears though something went wrong.. if you blew an engine.)

I don't think your brake adjustment changed in the trailer. I suspect just the dynamics of being on the track showed up the problems.

Braided lines are a Teflon (PTFE) line with stainless steel wrapping. This keeps them from expanding. An old stock rubber line gets soft after years of use and expands. Remember that the pressure in your brake lines will be over 1000PSI.

We will be looking for your order of "Getting Started in FV". I think it will help you out a bit. That in concert with other Vee drivers at the track will get you over the learning curve hump fast.

Jim
RaceCarSupply.com
SR Racing
859-252-2496

[SMac35]

Yes, something did go wrong with my engine. It was from New Zealand, and they tried some crazy things like cutting grooves in my pistons and what not. It lasted a solid ten laps, and it started to go so I shut it off, and I guess saved it before it actually blew, but It seized up and wouldn't start.

The brakes probably came loose with good ol' Nelson Ledges attacking my car as I go around.

I sent you an e-mail! I'll take advantage of all my WDCR FV guys who are all really good drivers, as well as Really good guys. I had Ed Womer put together my car so I learned a lot from him about maintenence and driving, he gave me a checklist too.

Thanks,
Steven

[smsazzy]

One important thing....Don't mash the gas when you get a little loose in a FV like you do with FWD

I wouldn't actually consider this a rule. It would depend on why you got loose to begin with. If you were loose because the rear tires are over loaded, then easing off the throttle will help bring the back end under control. But if you got loose from having to lift mid corner, or something else that unloaded the rear tires, then I would mash the gas.

Just my $0.02, but I consider the throttle the most important control to keeping the car going the direction you want it to. (Well, maybe second to the steering wheel, but you get the point)

[Daryl DeArman]

I think you'll also find that "mashing the gas" in a FV doesn't do much....

[2BWise]

My order for "Getting Started in FV" will be coming in this week!

Just finished my first weekend in the car and realized that although it is very simple I don't quite know the car as well as would have liked. I was running well, but issues kept me from running clean all weekend.

smsazzy, I have a checklist at the moment, but will send you an email later for a copy of yours. I'd like to see what I might being missing from what I came up with.

Thanks everyone for the tips

[JimR]

Harry,
If you are renting one of Dicks FV's you have little to worry about. His rental cars and opeation are as good as it gets and Dick is one of the best at going fast at Lime Rock. Throughout the event Dick and company do lots of typical prep to their cars and you can learn a lot by being around them. Steve Pastore is also the best local go to guy and it seems you have been connected with the right people in this area.
Since LRP has been restructured I haven't been there (that will change shortly) but it has always been a very technical track. Getting it right comes with experience and what drivers know is not readily shared as the difference in lap times can be slight with few passing zones. Like other classes the longer you can hold your right down down the better your lap time. This is especially true at Lime Rock. You can also search on Youtube there were some FV videos on Lime Rock as well that may help you.
Good luck
Jim Regan

[SMac35]

[quote=smsazzy;215046t I consider the throttle the most important control to keeping the car going the direction you want it to. (Well, maybe second to the steering wheel, but you get the point)[/quote]

That is very true, I drove karts for a little bit and loved a loose kart so I could put little input into the kart, and slide (controlled) around the turn using the gas. I didn't really get a chance to drive my car how I wanted, my steering was terrible, but it's getting worked on now. I should be racing at the MARRS at Summit Point June 27+28

[Matt King]

I wish my FV had enough power to steer with the throttle!

[Daryl DeArman]

I'm with you Matt. My FV handled so well and was so underpowered that unless I was in a tight off camber sweeper there wasn't any steering with the throttle required/desired. Otherwise it was foot to the wood the whole time trying to be a smooth as possible. No understeer, no oversteer, no power

[smsazzy]

Yes, you don't have enough power to 'power slide' through a corner like a go kart. But you can still use the throttle to steer the car. For example, if you are understeering, or perhaps enter a corner too early, you can pedal the throttle, or lift once, twice, three times, etc. to get the car to rotate. I had to do this at HPT last year for the runoffs as my car had so much understeer I was 2 seconds slower than qualifying. Bad set of tires I think.

You can also catch a spin that is induced by unweighting the rear tires by planting your foot on the floor. I'll bet you do both of these without even realizing it if you are anywhere in front of the very back of the pack.

[Halifax]

This is a great thread... thanks to everyone who contributed.

I passed my SCCA driving school at LRP on the 19th, and had my first race on the 20th ... in the rain, of course. I rented one of Dick Stewart's Vees ... made all of the difference. He was a great mentor at the track as well, and he has my Lynx B at his shop right now ... going through it in advance of the 11/12 July SCCA club races at New Hampshire.

The Vees are just awesome ... I am completely hooked.

PS- Thanks to Jim and Co. at Race Car Supply ... they got a HANS 30deg Sport delivered in record time, and at an excellent price!

[Halifax]

Harry,
If you are renting one of Dicks FV's you have little to worry about. His rental cars and opeation are as good as it gets and Dick is one of the best at going fast at Lime Rock. Throughout the event Dick and company do lots of typical prep to their cars and you can learn a lot by being around them. Steve Pastore is also the best local go to guy and it seems you have been connected with the right people in this area.
Since LRP has been restructured I haven't been there (that will change shortly) but it has always been a very technical track. Getting it right comes with experience and what drivers know is not readily shared as the difference in lap times can be slight with few passing zones. Like other classes the longer you can hold your right down down the better your lap time. This is especially true at Lime Rock. You can also search on Youtube there were some FV videos on Lime Rock as well that may help you.
Good luck
Jim Regan

Hi Jim,
Yes, having Dick nearby, and Steve even closer, is a major asset to a newbie!
Are you running at New Hampshire in July? Did I see your Vee up for sale recently?
Kind regards,
Harry