Multipurpose autocross and road race car

[MKnauf]

Hi everyone.

I'm looking for some ideas on what might be a good car for both road racing and autocross that isn't very expensive and will be fun, not necessarily nationally (or even regionally) competitive in either.

Current ideas:

1. Formula Vee
2. Super 7 replica
3. Formula Ford/Club Ford
4. Improved Touring/Street Prepared of some sort
5. Spec Miata

I've been looking around and although I was never really attracted to Formula Vee, it seems like they'd actually be pretty fun on a track and not completely boring to solo.

I'm actually more attracted to a replica Super 7, but it seems they are a bit more problematic for road racing with the SCCA, although if it's fun to drive in the group it gets thrown in then that doesn't really matter - they look to be quite fun for solo but my interest in solo is less than the track.

Formula Ford/Fit seems ideal for both but the cost is a bit higher than any, and I might not want to jump feet first into a car that capable.

IT is a route I've tried before with a MKII 16V VW GTI. Things in life happened and I returned the car back to street service, but the plan was IT and DSP. I did some solo with the car as I was developing it and was never really blown away with it even after I sorted the suspension. I have no idea how active IT is anymore and what cars might even be workable. And I don't really love street cars pretending to be race cars.

Spec Miata would probably work as well, but the class is crazy and I owned a Miata for a few years as a street car and it wasn't my favorite (I never autoxed or raced the one I owned, but I have others and I enjoy them more for that than for driving on the street). I just included it as an option. Not really where I want to go, but maybe I will change my mind in the future.


For Autox, it looks like in my region we've been whittled down to Seneca Army Depot, which is a large, abandoned air strip. I've done many events there in the past, and while it's big, I never really had as much fun as I wanted due to the weird concrete surface. I suppose if I get back to it, I'd like to really figure out tire choice for that.

As far as tracks, I'd probably only go to Watkins Glen. I might get adventurous and do some driving if I really enjoy whatever car I have. Unlike karting, there's actually more (decent) car tracks within about a 6hr drive for me.



Just some background:

I raced autox mostly regionally with the occasional divisional and national for around 5 years with a stock Dodge Neon ACR. I spent about a year or two with the VW GTI I mentioned above. I was kind of burned out with solo after that period and having abandoned the GTI as a track car I decided to get into karting. That was fun for a few years but I was a bit disillusioned with where I wanted to go with the sport. Local driving was getting boring and going to nationals was extremely expensive due to distance to events (WKA Gold Cup at that time). At any rate, karting was good for me to learn driving with others on a track (which at times was very frustrating) and learning that I kind of really like an open wheel experience. I vowed at that point if I raced cars again I'd only drive purpose built race machines (but who knows...)...

Also I have a small yard and garage, and I don't plan on moving. So a small vehicle like a formula car or Super 7 seems ideal. I'd love a vintage Elan, but much more budget than I'd want to spend and ? for road racing.

But I'd love to hear opinions on the matter and suggestions for things I didn't consider. Thanks!

P.S. F600 isn't for me.

[Matt Clark]

how much wheel to wheel vs. AX do you want to do?

you are in a rather strong region for FV, with the Challenge Cup Series & NEFV group, also Canada if you feel like going up there. that would be your cheapest route overall & have very good fields, especially on radials.
the Super7 would be nice, as you could also drive it on the road if you want. but finding a spot for it in competitive form can be harder & pricey.
FF & CFF isn't terrible, but the costs will be higher than FV.
IT & such will be a bit of a wildcard, depending on what you go with.
SM is good if you like close racing & also lighting cash on fire for no reason. that's a rough class that is more expensive to get into & maintain than people realize.

[MKnauf]

how much wheel to wheel vs. AX do you want to do?

you are in a rather strong region for FV, with the Challenge Cup Series & NEFV group, also Canada if you feel like going up there. that would be your cheapest route overall & have very good fields, especially on radials.
the Super7 would be nice, as you could also drive it on the road if you want. but finding a spot for it in competitive form can be harder & pricey.
FF & CFF isn't terrible, but the costs will be higher than FV.
IT & such will be a bit of a wildcard, depending on what you go with.
SM is good if you like close racing & also lighting cash on fire for no reason. that's a rough class that is more expensive to get into & maintain than people realize.

That's a good question...

And one I don't have an answer to. I don't have any club racing experience, but that is what is more interesting to me as it's not something I've done yet. Solo is more something I think I might want to still do if I had the car. Karts and solo didn't seem to mix well so I never tried that, although it seemed like they'd probably be really fun.

My concern about V's is longevity and future of the class. Although, I don't know... I might not stick with it all that long. When I started solo and then karting, I thought I'd be doing those forever but when the work and hassle became > the fun factor, I put it down.

My kids are also a bit young now, but I kind of was thinking of introducing them to the sport when they're old enough to drive. So something that could also work for a 16 year old novice driver would be ideal.

Might look into karts again at some point but in my mind, and I don't know if any of your are aware of how good emoto batteries and motors are now, and how much better they're likely to get, I'm kind of hoping/thinking that karts will go that direction. It would be real easy to do away with the 100 different motors and clutches out there and probably normalize the sport a bit... or kill it... kinda waiting to see...

But yeah... like I said... V seems attractive as a road race car. Kinda seems like it would be similar to 4 cycle karting scaled up. Super 7 seems attractive as autox car that I could probably keep street legal. I'm guessing NASA or track days would be where I'd have to look for track time?

The others... just stuff that technically could work, but not really great in other ways. FF look wicked fun to drive, and I wouldn't mind doing vintage for track days - but that's probably more getting to be more expensive.

[Matt Clark]

That's a good question...

And one I don't have an answer to. I don't have any club racing experience, but that is what is more interesting to me as it's not something I've done yet. Solo is more something I think I might want to still do if I had the car. Karts and solo didn't seem to mix well so I never tried that, although it seemed like they'd probably be really fun.

My concern about V's is longevity and future of the class. Although, I don't know... I might not stick with it all that long. When I started solo and then karting, I thought I'd be doing those forever but when the work and hassle became > the fun factor, I put it down.

My kids are also a bit young now, but I kind of was thinking of introducing them to the sport when they're old enough to drive. So something that could also work for a 16 year old novice driver would be ideal.

Might look into karts again at some point but in my mind, and I don't know if any of your are aware of how good emoto batteries and motors are now, and how much better they're likely to get, I'm kind of hoping/thinking that karts will go that direction. It would be real easy to do away with the 100 different motors and clutches out there and probably normalize the sport a bit... or kill it... kinda waiting to see...

But yeah... like I said... V seems attractive as a road race car. Kinda seems like it would be similar to 4 cycle karting scaled up. Super 7 seems attractive as autox car that I could probably keep street legal. I'm guessing NASA or track days would be where I'd have to look for track time?

The others... just stuff that technically could work, but not really great in other ways. FF look wicked fun to drive, and I wouldn't mind doing vintage for track days - but that's probably more getting to be more expensive.

I think you are pretty well on point with your thoughts about the other cars, but FVs are fine for longevity. Some intermittent parts issues here & there, but we just passed 60 years, and are still super strong in the Mid-Atlantic to New England, with the groups having 25-30 or more cars each race weekend. And it would be perfect for your kids to get into. We have had & do have several now. And there are a couple nice cars for sale currently.

I didn't think karts are even allowed to AX anymore, after a junior had a fatal accident like 2-3 years ago.
I have seen some of the electric stuff, but I don't know much about who all is doing anything with it outside of YouTubers.

There are quite a few different places you could do track days, HPDE, etc. with a 7, though. Again, depends on what you decide you want to do. I am not a huge fan of track days myself. They are cool at first, but then gets boring just racing yourself & waiting for a point-by from others.
I would have to do more digging on some of the newer types of events within SCCA for that too. They have been trying to relax some rules & do things to get more new people, and with easier to classify cars.

[Lynn]

Regarding karts, the Formula Junior classes were eliminated, but Kart Modified still exists.

[EYERACE]

Buy a "Club Ford," Class CF
Club Fords are older Formula Fords and classed separately from FF in a lot of SCCA Regions.
You will be able to Auto-X the CF car ........although you will seldom get the car into second gear if you run track gears at an Auto-X.....for Auto-X gearing you would need very low ratios that will not be proper for the track. I would not care to spend an hour or two swapping out tranny gears just for Auto-X ratios so I can have maybe nine or so 55 second runs for the whole day at an Auto-X.....and then swap gears again for the track.
With the CF car you will be able to race wheel to wheel .......with not just SCCA Club Racing but also various Vintage organizations too (HSR, VDCA, SVRA, others). So, you will have a variety of options. Most Vintage racing would be on treaded tires made for Vintage rules. The SCCA could have you not only out on track with the "Wings & Things" open wheel grid but when the SCCA has it, their Vintage grid too. When the SCCA has a Vintage grid and the open wheel "Wings & Things" grid the same event, you could be eligible to run in both sessions for a lot of seat time.
In a way the same thought is true if you went FV.

[10rmotor]

whats your available budget? Have a trailer? Tools?

[MKnauf]

whats your available budget? Have a trailer? Tools?

Not sure. No set budget yet. Maybe 10k for a car?

I do not have a trailer but I do have most tools - I did have alignment tools at one time but I think I sold them. Had scales for karts, but wouldn't have worked for a formula car. Sold them anyway.

[R. Pare]

The problem with FF in autocrossing at the moment is tires - the ones needed to be competitive are almost totally unavailable at the moment, and Hoosier may not make any more.Not sure what the answer to this issue will be yet.

The next problem with FFs is that to be competitive, you need multiple drivers to get then keep the tires up to their best temps-you cannot do this adequately if you are by yourself.

[lowside67]

There is not an even halfway competitive home for a spec Miata or IP/IT racecar in autocross. Not even close.

If you are prepared to be uncompetitive at that level then frankly the world is your oyster and you can simply choose a car you can afford and like which is actually a lovely thing.

It’s also worth understanding that while a FF could be competitive at solo and road racing, there are massive differences in the way they are configured and setup that you can basically think of them as needing two cars. It wouldn’t be fun to swap them back and forth.

If you start road racing I think the desire for autocross will probably reduce, and alternatively as a high level autocrosser, I didn’t ever do any road racing. I’d try to figure out which one you’ll actually realistically do (be honest about your operating budget, these days it is pretty close to impossible to road race for less than a few thousand per weekend in my opinion) and let that guide your choice.

-Mark

[TedV]

Have you thought of F600? Choice of 2-smoke or 4-stroke. 2-smoke is the most popular AX, 4-stroke seems more popular road racing. Changes to setup between AX and Roadrace, final drive sprocket/chain for lower gearing, wide tires on front rims do make the car point better but can run regular fronts. Measure the overall width to make sure the wide tires don't put you past the 55" max width. Add cooling fans on radiator to nit have to worry when staging. Any road race formula car will need the fan setup or risk overheating when staging and delayed.

I did AX a CFF. One thing few will mention, the 5th spring cars can get unpredictable on fesh R20 soft tires. On old hard used tires mine was beautifuly balanced, drifted like a dream, an absolute joy to drive but was not fast because less ultimate grip. Fresh tires the car was psychotic and tried to kill you and coworkers any chance it got. CFF cars might need chassis stiffening.

Also AX shifter kart and was first person to send in electric kart request letter using FIA alternative fuel rules and proof of people running electric karts that were not faster than Stock Honda status quo. My proposal drive and kart was about identical to the demonstration runs at 2024 Solo Nats. It did not dominate the gas powered karts. Until an electric kart series in USA has more entrants than gas powered karts there will be zero national AX electric karts. Or, national staff make a decree to place E-kart in the class overriding the member advisory committee. And that's all I should say on the decree subject...

Also, look at what is available for assistance in your area on cars you're interested in driving. There probably will be a learning curve on any car that is new to you.

[MKnauf]

There is not an even halfway competitive home for a spec Miata or IP/IT racecar in autocross. Not even close.

If you are prepared to be uncompetitive at that level then frankly the world is your oyster and you can simply choose a car you can afford and like which is actually a lovely thing.

It’s also worth understanding that while a FF could be competitive at solo and road racing, there are massive differences in the way they are configured and setup that you can basically think of them as needing two cars. It wouldn’t be fun to swap them back and forth.

If you start road racing I think the desire for autocross will probably reduce, and alternatively as a high level autocrosser, I didn’t ever do any road racing. I’d try to figure out which one you’ll actually realistically do (be honest about your operating budget, these days it is pretty close to impossible to road race for less than a few thousand per weekend in my opinion) and let that guide your choice.

-Mark

I wasn't so much worried about being competitive in Solo - again, if it's fun, I'd do it. If not, I wouldn't. We have one site locally and it's a big air pad and strip. Generally fast courses, national style. I don't have any interest in national solo. And on the local level, it looks like there's such a spread in classes everyone is doing PAX racing. Again, I don't much care about a wood board and little cone trophy - I've been there, collected my trophies, and now they sit in boxes or have been recycled. It's more about what will be fun on the course...

As far as cost - I figured I'd be around $1000 a weekend for Formula Vee. That would be for a local race. We have 3 SCCA events at the Glen a year, and a couple NASA events. Probably a vintage or two in there. I figure, given my other interests in life, I might do 2-3 road race events a year. Maybe 2-3 regional autox events. What RR events I'd do would depend on the car. If I had a FV, I'd probably go to the national at the glen because it's the biggest field they get. I do like to win, but I'm realistic these days. I'm 44, I don't want to wreck a car, I don't want to burn money for a national car I race at one national event a season, and the payoff doesn't do as much for me anymore. If I could have a scrap with a few other similar cars, that would probably be the most I'm after, even if it's mid-pack or less.

Have you thought of F600? Choice of 2-smoke or 4-stroke. 2-smoke is the most popular AX, 4-stroke seems more popular road racing. Changes to setup between AX and Roadrace, final drive sprocket/chain for lower gearing, wide tires on front rims do make the car point better but can run regular fronts. Measure the overall width to make sure the wide tires don't put you past the 55" max width. Add cooling fans on radiator to nit have to worry when staging. Any road race formula car will need the fan setup or risk overheating when staging and delayed.

I did AX a CFF. One thing few will mention, the 5th spring cars can get unpredictable on fesh R20 soft tires. On old hard used tires mine was beautifuly balanced, drifted like a dream, an absolute joy to drive but was not fast because less ultimate grip. Fresh tires the car was psychotic and tried to kill you and coworkers any chance it got. CFF cars might need chassis stiffening.

Also AX shifter kart and was first person to send in electric kart request letter using FIA alternative fuel rules and proof of people running electric karts that were not faster than Stock Honda status quo. My proposal drive and kart was about identical to the demonstration runs at 2024 Solo Nats. It did not dominate the gas powered karts. Until an electric kart series in USA has more entrants than gas powered karts there will be zero national AX electric karts. Or, national staff make a decree to place E-kart in the class overriding the member advisory committee. And that's all I should say on the decree subject...

Also, look at what is available for assistance in your area on cars you're interested in driving. There probably will be a learning curve on any car that is new to you.

I'm not too worried about the overheating on a V. I'd guess just warm it up so the oil's up to temp and then roll it on grid. Generally at local events they used to be pretty accommodating for formula cars i.e. not making you wait forever in a grid.

Seems like one could bolt on a 12V fan to a FF and disconnect for RR. I haven't thought about it too much but it seems rather trivial to me ATM.

As far as the F600 - I really don't like the two strokes. The CVT thing annoys me. I'm not hip to the 4 cycles - I'm guessing they are using the full gearbox from the bike. I guess that wouldn't be so bad. I'm not a fan of the suspension - but I honestly haven't seen where that is now. The old ones seemed kinda bouncy. Not really looking for that kinda feel at 100mph. And honestly have doubts about Solo with a kart on most sites. Our track was kind of rough, and it didn't really beat me up or anything, the lateral g's were far more tiring, but more it was really hard to keep the kart from sliding on that kind of stuff. They get really unsettled and break loose - which is fine, but it's not really what they are good at. They kind of really need smooth tracks to do their best. So I guess my point is, suspension probably makes more sense for Solo.

[bassracer]

A lot of comments here already reflect my input about a compromised car for two disciplines that takes major effort to develop and continue changing. Gary Godula may chime in he has done this for decades fairly successfully.

FWIW I did a transition in 2016 with my FF Autox to Club racing and dipped in both events for a whole season. I was successful that season but I was also starting with a highly competitive solo-focused car. I imagine it could be more difficult to start with something brand new and try to do parallel development. How competitive you want to be should be a key consideration in managing your expectations and plan.

If you're not completely sold on wheel to wheel the SCCA is trying to promote the Club Spec Mustang class which is a 1:1 spec for time trial and Solo. I don't know much about it.

[Matt Clark]

As far as cost - I figured I'd be around $1000 a weekend for Formula Vee. That would be for a local race. We have 3 SCCA events at the Glen a year, and a couple NASA events. Probably a vintage or two in there. I figure, given my other interests in life, I might do 2-3 road race events a year. Maybe 2-3 regional autox events. What RR events I'd do would depend on the car. If I had a FV, I'd probably go to the national at the glen because it's the biggest field they get. I do like to win, but I'm realistic these days. I'm 44, I don't want to wreck a car, I don't want to burn money for a national car I race at one national event a season, and the payoff doesn't do as much for me anymore. If I could have a scrap with a few other similar cars, that would probably be the most I'm after, even if it's mid-pack or less.

I will keep addressing the FV aspect since that's what I am most familiar with...
$1000 is pretty close for a FV race weekend, with all costs factored in (engine/gearbox rebuild cost, tire wear, etc). That also depends who you have do rebuilds, as costs can vary.
Unfortunately, SCCA removed FF/F600/FV from the National at the Glen (see the Hoosier Super Tour debacle). Even still, that was far from the largest FV race there. Challenge Cup gets more FVs than the entire FF/F600/FV run group at the National. Almost no FVs show up (literally only 1-2) for Regionals there now. Everyone switched to the CCS. You could do the 2 Regionals & the SVRA vintage weekend if you just want to get track time, though. CCS also does at least 1 of the Regionals as a guest group.
$10k would actually get you a very good car, that could put you in the lead pack of a CCS race. The radial tires really help keep everyone together, despite some cars being much better than others. You might even be able to pick up some wins if things work out right. Nationals is another level of money & effort. At the 60th birthday party in 2023, Steve Whitston ran in the lead couple cars, but was not dominate. In 2024, he won the Runoffs. CCS is both easier & harder that on racing slicks. But wayyy cheaper.
Also, age is not a factor... 44 is young in FV. lol

[MKnauf]

I will keep addressing the FV aspect since that's what I am most familiar with...
$1000 is pretty close for a FV race weekend, with all costs factored in (engine/gearbox rebuild cost, tire wear, etc). That also depends who you have do rebuilds, as costs can vary.
Unfortunately, SCCA removed FF/F600/FV from the National at the Glen (see the Hoosier Super Tour debacle). Even still, that was far from the largest FV race there. Challenge Cup gets more FVs than the entire FF/F600/FV run group at the National. Almost no FVs show up (literally only 1-2) for Regionals there now. Everyone switched to the CCS. You could do the 2 Regionals & the SVRA vintage weekend if you just want to get track time, though. CCS also does at least 1 of the Regionals as a guest group.
$10k would actually get you a very good car, that could put you in the lead pack of a CCS race. The radial tires really help keep everyone together, despite some cars being much better than others. You might even be able to pick up some wins if things work out right. Nationals is another level of money & effort. At the 60th birthday party in 2023, Steve Whitston ran in the lead couple cars, but was not dominate. In 2024, he won the Runoffs. CCS is both easier & harder that on racing slicks. But wayyy cheaper.
Also, age is not a factor... 44 is young in FV. lol

Thanks - that is very helpful! I'll research that series. I've watched some vids but I don't really know the details.

The Glen is only an hour and a half for me, so not huge transport cost. And I camp there every year, but if I was going to race, I might stay in a hotel so I'm more fresh.

I know 44 is young for club racers, but I'm just pointing out I've done a lot of trophy chasing in Solo and karting when I was younger. It doesn't quite have the same appeal for me these days. Maybe if my kids get into it we'll try - I have one who is very competitive in bike racing!

[Matt Clark]

Thanks - that is very helpful! I'll research that series. I've watched some vids but I don't really know the details.

The Glen is only an hour and a half for me, so not huge transport cost. And I camp there every year, but if I was going to race, I might stay in a hotel so I'm more fresh.

I know 44 is young for club racers, but I'm just pointing out I've done a lot of trophy chasing in Solo and karting when I was younger. It doesn't quite have the same appeal for me these days. Maybe if my kids get into it we'll try - I have one who is very competitive in bike racing!

no worries.
here are some links for FV stuff, if you get bored.


main US FV Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/formulaveeracingusa

Challenge Cup:
https://challengecupseries.com/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/155486181454972

NEFV:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/126927810981314

[BLS]

The oldest racing class in operation worldwide is FV, it's not going anywhere, just the usual changes that occur to a class that's been around since 1963.

FV checks all your boxes and you are in an area where FV is strong and the lowest cost race car you can own.

[DaveW]

The oldest racing class in operation worldwide is FV, it's not going anywhere, just the usual changes that occur to a class that's been around since 1963.

FV checks all your boxes and you are in an area where FV is strong and the lowest cost race car you can own.

And FV teaches you things that you may not learn in higher power classes where having more power sometimes hides your cornering technique mistakes.

[hdsporty1988]

For context, I started out Autoxing with a 73 corvette that gradually became less of a street car to more of a dedicated Autox car. Then I decided to go Road racing and purchased a 1978 Tiga to run Club Ford. However I still wanted to and did still participate in Autox with the Tiga. I ran the Tiga with the road racing setup and the Hoosier R60 compound tires required for CF just swapping the gears to a very low 1st gear. I had blast and did well doing both. Autox is very good at teaching car control that does transfer to road racing. I won races on the track and often set FTD Autoxing. While at first it takes an hour or so to swap gears, after doing so a few times you'll be able to do it in 30 minutes without rushing.

[MKnauf]

For context, I started out Autoxing with a 73 corvette that gradually became less of a street car to more of a dedicated Autox car. Then I decided to go Road racing and purchased a 1978 Tiga to run Club Ford. However I still wanted to and did still participate in Autox with the Tiga. I ran the Tiga with the road racing setup and the Hoosier R60 compound tires required for CF just swapping the gears to a very low 1st gear. I had blast and did well doing both. Autox is very good at teaching car control that does transfer to road racing. I won races on the track and often set FTD Autoxing. While at first it takes an hour or so to swap gears, after doing so a few times you'll be able to do it in 30 minutes without rushing.

I gotta be honest, as logical as FV seems to be, my heart leans toward a FF. I just really like the cars - the Kent makes me nervous and the Fit seems ridiculous (I read it's a $10k swap and it's a special engine from Honda, not just an engine from a production car).

I have no idea about tire compounds - I know I ran Kumho tires on my Neon because that's all I could afford at the time. They were okay on asphalt but I didn't like them on concrete. I did have some Hoosier AX compound (can't recall what they are/were) on my VW but I never drove them on concrete.


My experience driving Ax to karting was they were like totally different worlds, even though speeds are similar. Other than a steering wheel, a brake and a throttle, I didn't find much transferred. Maybe going the other way it would as I feel I became a much better driver after karting, although that may be in my head. But I definitely think about it differently. I feel like I'd be more comfortable in an open wheel car than I would have prior. I'd imagine if I was driving the same car there'd be some kind of transfer though.

[Jim Garry]

Tires for C Mod Formula F are readily available. The front tires are not a problem as several other classes use them.

The rears were a problem for a while. Getting them in the soft compound ended for a few months in early 2023 but Hoosier agreed to manufacture them as long as the pre-orders reached their minimum order, which they did. The rears are currently available from R&S Racing Tires (a Hoosier distributor) and I just spoke with them a week ago and they said another production run is coming.

So don't let fears of tire availability effect your decision. They are available with no problem.

A C Mod FF is a truly fun car to autocross. Light and responsive with good grip. They are a joy to drive.

The major difference in road racing vs autox regarding setup is the gearing. To be able to leave the line quickly you'll need the fixed first gear. Or if you don't care about maximizing your autox times you could run a road race low gear and accept that you won't be spinning the rear tires at the start.

[MKnauf]

So I've done a bit more looking, and perhaps I should start a new thread regarding this in separate forums so I can get more perspective, but how does FST stack up?

Again, my perspective here is an all-around regional *fun* car. It seems the FST might actually be a better AX car. I kind of like that it is (in my limited view), halfway between a FV and a FF.

Is the gearing usable for Ax? I see complaints about 2nd gear. Is it too low? I'm asking this regarding the FV as well - I have zero perspective on how this works and what the speeds might be @ max rpm in each.

How is the balance of FST? I see claims that the FF tires can last more cycles than the slicks, but will obviously be less than the radials of the CCS series FV. I can't tell because I've never driven, but the FV's don't seem to handle quite the same with the radials vs the slicks - they look heavy on the wheel (larger scrub radius?) and perhaps a big more pushy and vague (larger dead band) based on video comps. How does the FST compare?

I'm 5'-10" and typically ranging between 190-200lbs. It seems I'm kind of on the edge for either, in that either would work, but perhaps FST might give me a bit more leeway with weight. This seems minor IMO.

I like the idea of discs better TBH. I'm not a fan of drums for many reasons, but it seems FV you can convert the front? to disc?

Finally, it seems I'm kind of in a crossover region in that there aren't a ton of FST but there are some. I may hold off on purchasing a car for a couple years, or I may be really picky and keep my eyes open in that time and look for whatever is the best deal. I guess if worst comes to worst and I get a FV and hate it, I can always convert it... although perhaps that seems silly if it's already a well sorted and good running vee.

[Matt Clark]

So I've done a bit more looking, and perhaps I should start a new thread regarding this in separate forums so I can get more perspective, but how does FST stack up?

Again, my perspective here is an all-around regional *fun* car. It seems the FST might actually be a better AX car. I kind of like that it is (in my limited view), halfway between a FV and a FF.

Is the gearing usable for Ax? I see complaints about 2nd gear. Is it too low? I'm asking this regarding the FV as well - I have zero perspective on how this works and what the speeds might be @ max rpm in each.

How is the balance of FST? I see claims that the FF tires can last more cycles than the slicks, but will obviously be less than the radials of the CCS series FV. I can't tell because I've never driven, but the FV's don't seem to handle quite the same with the radials vs the slicks - they look heavy on the wheel (larger scrub radius?) and perhaps a big more pushy and vague (larger dead band) based on video comps. How does the FST compare?

I'm 5'-10" and typically ranging between 190-200lbs. It seems I'm kind of on the edge for either, in that either would work, but perhaps FST might give me a bit more leeway with weight. This seems minor IMO.

I like the idea of discs better TBH. I'm not a fan of drums for many reasons, but it seems FV you can convert the front? to disc?

Finally, it seems I'm kind of in a crossover region in that there aren't a ton of FST but there are some. I may hold off on purchasing a car for a couple years, or I may be really picky and keep my eyes open in that time and look for whatever is the best deal. I guess if worst comes to worst and I get a FV and hate it, I can always convert it... although perhaps that seems silly if it's already a well sorted and good running vee.

I also ran the FST series the other year, as I was asked to help develop a new rear suspension design for Brad Buenting, of BRD fame.
Given your location, unless you really want to just go around a track... I would ignore FST. There are only basically 10 of them that even race anymore, and they are Michigan - Ohio. You would basically have an openwheel trackday toy that you would have to pay full road racing fees to run. You mention it seems like you are in a crossover area, but I can't think of who you would have seen in your area.... other than the rare case when the FST series came to the Glen.
AX in one probably wouldn't be terrible, though, given their torque.

2nd gear in any of the VW gearbox cars is kinda pointless. FST does spec a "long box", which makes 2nd a -tiny- bit more usable, but really FV & FST are only 3rd & 4th soon as the car is moving. When we did an AX in my FV, it was 3rd gear the entire run, although obviously that depends on the course.

FSTs do handle nice, as they are on the FF tire like you found... but they still are only peak grip for a short while.
The older Falken tires in Challenge Cup were a lot less "racey" than the current Yokohama tire, which now drives almost the same as a slick. They are a little heavier, but we actually corner faster than the Hoosier slicks. Like I said somewhere earlier, they are way more forgiving than slicks. The videos you see where the cars seem to mis-handle is basically people not setting the car up right. There is a lot of nuance to the situation on handling & details in either class, but I would say almost all of it is not a big deal once you get into it.
Short version, is there is a reason Challenge Cup & DriverZ Cup get 25+ cars, NEFV is slowly switching, and other areas are talking to us with interest in changing.

Your size is not a problem. There are some chassis that fit bigger people better, but you aren't that big. Most cars will fit you & meet weight just fine. Again, with Challenge Cup, there is a slight weight buffer for heavier guys included to our rules too.

Disc brakes can be front and rear in FV. The fancy, top of the line, National FV-special kits can get pricey, but there are less expensive alternatives that can work as well. We even can use newer 4x130 hardware instead of just 5x205 too.
FST uses totally stock VW brakes, which can be cheaper yet, and everyone has the same thing. They definitely could be better, but they work.

There is a whole long discussion that could be had on FST, and if you ask a FST guy, they are the best thing that ever happened.
They have their advantages & disadvantages. After running them, I think they need to revamp their rules a bit.

I would definitely not convert a Vee. It is a lot of work & expense, and there are plenty of FSTs already out there.
Actually, the car I drove will be listed here again very shortly apparently. The post from when it was for sale last time is still here in the FST classifieds (the "Silver Bullet Caracal FST" post).

And with all that said, if you still keep thinking of FF... I would say Club Ford is still reasonable, but you will have to watch your $10k budget. They can be run at Regionals, Vintage, or in AX. And there is a reasonably good number of those around you too.
With everything you have said in your posts so far, if you want to do any actual road racing, and don't get a Challenge Cup FV, I would say Club Ford should be your 2nd pick.

If you are not in a big hurry to get a car, I would HIGHLY recommend you come to a couple races this season & get a better look at the cars in all the classes you have mentioned. That will give you a much better feel & understand of everything, as there is a lot more to it than just the cars.

[MKnauf]

I also ran the FST series the other year, as I was asked to help develop a new rear suspension design for Brad Buenting, of BRD fame.
Given your location, unless you really want to just go around a track... I would ignore FST. There are only basically 10 of them that even race anymore, and they are Michigan - Ohio. You would basically have an openwheel trackday toy that you would have to pay full road racing fees to run. You mention it seems like you are in a crossover area, but I can't think of who you would have seen in your area.... other than the rare case when the FST series came to the Glen.
AX in one probably wouldn't be terrible, though, given their torque.

2nd gear in any of the VW gearbox cars is kinda pointless. FST does spec a "long box", which makes 2nd a -tiny- bit more usable, but really FV & FST are only 3rd & 4th soon as the car is moving. When we did an AX in my FV, it was 3rd gear the entire run, although obviously that depends on the course.

FSTs do handle nice, as they are on the FF tire like you found... but they still are only peak grip for a short while.
The older Falken tires in Challenge Cup were a lot less "racey" than the current Yokohama tire, which now drives almost the same as a slick. They are a little heavier, but we actually corner faster than the Hoosier slicks. Like I said somewhere earlier, they are way more forgiving than slicks. The videos you see where the cars seem to mis-handle is basically people not setting the car up right. There is a lot of nuance to the situation on handling & details in either class, but I would say almost all of it is not a big deal once you get into it.
Short version, is there is a reason Challenge Cup & DriverZ Cup get 25+ cars, NEFV is slowly switching, and other areas are talking to us with interest in changing.

Your size is not a problem. There are some chassis that fit bigger people better, but you aren't that big. Most cars will fit you & meet weight just fine. Again, with Challenge Cup, there is a slight weight buffer for heavier guys included to our rules too.

Disc brakes can be front and rear in FV. The fancy, top of the line, National FV-special kits can get pricey, but there are less expensive alternatives that can work as well. We even can use newer 4x130 hardware instead of just 5x205 too.
FST uses totally stock VW brakes, which can be cheaper yet, and everyone has the same thing. They definitely could be better, but they work.

There is a whole long discussion that could be had on FST, and if you ask a FST guy, they are the best thing that ever happened.
They have their advantages & disadvantages. After running them, I think they need to revamp their rules a bit.

I would definitely not convert a Vee. It is a lot of work & expense, and there are plenty of FSTs already out there.
Actually, the car I drove will be listed here again very shortly apparently. The post from when it was for sale last time is still here in the FST classifieds (the "Silver Bullet Caracal FST" post).

And with all that said, if you still keep thinking of FF... I would say Club Ford is still reasonable, but you will have to watch your $10k budget. They can be run at Regionals, Vintage, or in AX. And there is a reasonably good number of those around you too.
With everything you have said in your posts so far, if you want to do any actual road racing, and don't get a Challenge Cup FV, I would say Club Ford should be your 2nd pick.

If you are not in a big hurry to get a car, I would HIGHLY recommend you come to a couple races this season & get a better look at the cars in all the classes you have mentioned. That will give you a much better feel & understand of everything, as there is a lot more to it than just the cars.

Good info, thanks.

By "crossover" I meant that I saw some vids of them racing at the glen, but it was like 3-4. Looks like Mid Ohio (by videos) had a larger field.

As far a CFF - I think an extra 5-6k on the car budget is likely appropriate and I'm not sure I want to do that.

But, I am not in a hurry at all. I'm only gathering info right now. I did plan on going to a race this year, but I don't know that it will be a CCS race. I was going to go more as a spectator rather than one who is on a mission to figure out a car and race class. But I may work that in either this year, or next.

I'll likely come up with more questions. Most I can find searching this forum, but some it is nice to have direct feedback. But this is helpful in getting a clear direction...

[Apexcarver]

I understand if you really dont think F5/6 is for you, but I would try to at least put this out there so you have the information rather than preconception as one of the classes biggest fights is against preconceptions that arent correct.

I have a '94 KBS Mk7 that I have been autocossing and using for track trials, with intent to eventually roadrace (meant for 2025 to be the year for drivers school, but work/family stuff is gonna push it another year). The car is running a Rotax 494, and aside from cleaning carbs I havent had trouble out of it in the 6 years of running it. I have only had to do cleaning on the CVT, no application of any "black arts". There are companies within the community that will assist with initial setups and troubleshooting it.

The $ breakdown
I bought the car in 2018 for $8500, it came with an enclosed trailer, 3 sets of wheels, Helmet, HANS, firesuit, half a spare body, etc.
I have a spare engine I got "just in case" that was only a few hundred $.
Tires are a little over $1k a set new at this point.
Biggest single expense so far aside from tires was replacing the fuel cell (needed for RR, not for AX) at $1k.

There is a functional suspension on the car with a few inches of total travel. I have run on bumpy sites, but as long as I am not bottoming it out, its not beating the hell out of me. A big bump can upset the car a little more than other cars, but it is very catchable. A lot probably has more to do with the solid rear axle which lacks a differential. That takes more adjustment and driving around than other aspects of the car. You learn. Corner entry is a bit different as the lack of diff can instill understeer if approached wrong. Driven correctly, extremely fast.

I find the CVT to be a blast to drive! Especially for autocross. Always being on the powerband and not caught out bogging out of a turn makes a big difference. On the track, you really get to focus on driving technique with line, corner entry, brake to throttle transition and I dont find myself missing it.

The bike engine. I will admit if I was more focused on track and able to spend a bit more I would prefer the bike motor, mostly for the EFI and not having to worry about carbs/tune (not that I am doing much with it, I generally just keep it conservative). There is a last percentage to get out of a CVT car that is tricky to tune, but the bike motors dont need as much for optimization. Runoffs have been won on stock junkyard bike motors. I havent seen a serious bike motor effort at autocross, but believe the CVT is a major advantage there. That said, the bike motor car would still be very fast.

The size/weight advantage of the class is considerable. My car is 650ish-lb without me in it, so with a minimal open trailer setup you could tow with just about ANYTHING. No truck required. (I have a 6x14 enclosed set up to be able to camp in with the car in it with a full size bed above the front of the car and tow with a Ford Maverick)

The autocross class is very strong, among the strongest Mod classes.
Roadracing, well, you can read a bunch on here and get up to speed. No more runoffs, but can have fun regionally and generally play well with FF/Club Ford from what I have seen and been told.

Transitioning car from autox to track - you will likely keep different wheels. Autox, wide fronts and the softer Hoosiers. Track, narrow fonts and the harder Hoosiers. The soft Hoosiers work for the trials stuff I am doing, but I can make them start flinging chunks in single laps on a warm day. Other than that, change front end alignment, adjust front track width, and change final drive ratio (not difficult).

I'll leave with some video from me autocrossing and at a track trial, as well as someone else's video of a bike motor car on track, so you can see what that is like.
https://youtu.be/7n1ShC7GPwY?si=qeuDrSALtb5AiqLp

[MKnauf]

I understand if you really dont think F5/6 is for you, but I would try to at least put this out there so you have the information rather than preconception as one of the classes biggest fights is against preconceptions that arent correct.

I have a '94 KBS Mk7 that I have been autocossing and using for track trials, with intent to eventually roadrace (meant for 2025 to be the year for drivers school, but work/family stuff is gonna push it another year). The car is running a Rotax 494, and aside from cleaning carbs I havent had trouble out of it in the 6 years of running it. I have only had to do cleaning on the CVT, no application of any "black arts". There are companies within the community that will assist with initial setups and troubleshooting it.

The $ breakdown
I bought the car in 2018 for $8500, it came with an enclosed trailer, 3 sets of wheels, Helmet, HANS, firesuit, half a spare body, etc.
I have a spare engine I got "just in case" that was only a few hundred $.
Tires are a little over $1k a set new at this point.
Biggest single expense so far aside from tires was replacing the fuel cell (needed for RR, not for AX) at $1k.

There is a functional suspension on the car with a few inches of total travel. I have run on bumpy sites, but as long as I am not bottoming it out, its not beating the hell out of me. A big bump can upset the car a little more than other cars, but it is very catchable. A lot probably has more to do with the solid rear axle which lacks a differential. That takes more adjustment and driving around than other aspects of the car. You learn. Corner entry is a bit different as the lack of diff can instill understeer if approached wrong. Driven correctly, extremely fast.

I find the CVT to be a blast to drive! Especially for autocross. Always being on the powerband and not caught out bogging out of a turn makes a big difference. On the track, you really get to focus on driving technique with line, corner entry, brake to throttle transition and I dont find myself missing it.

The bike engine. I will admit if I was more focused on track and able to spend a bit more I would prefer the bike motor, mostly for the EFI and not having to worry about carbs/tune (not that I am doing much with it, I generally just keep it conservative). There is a last percentage to get out of a CVT car that is tricky to tune, but the bike motors dont need as much for optimization. Runoffs have been won on stock junkyard bike motors. I havent seen a serious bike motor effort at autocross, but believe the CVT is a major advantage there. That said, the bike motor car would still be very fast.

The size/weight advantage of the class is considerable. My car is 650ish-lb without me in it, so with a minimal open trailer setup you could tow with just about ANYTHING. No truck required. (I have a 6x14 enclosed set up to be able to camp in with the car in it with a full size bed above the front of the car and tow with a Ford Maverick)

The autocross class is very strong, among the strongest Mod classes.
Roadracing, well, you can read a bunch on here and get up to speed. No more runoffs, but can have fun regionally and generally play well with FF/Club Ford from what I have seen and been told.

Transitioning car from autox to track - you will likely keep different wheels. Autox, wide fronts and the softer Hoosiers. Track, narrow fonts and the harder Hoosiers. The soft Hoosiers work for the trials stuff I am doing, but I can make them start flinging chunks in single laps on a warm day. Other than that, change front end alignment, adjust front track width, and change final drive ratio (not difficult).

I'll leave with some video from me autocrossing and at a track trial, as well as someone else's video of a bike motor car on track, so you can see what that is like.
https://youtu.be/7n1ShC7GPwY?si=qeuDrSALtb5AiqLp

Yes - karts have no differential as well. I'm very familiar with their setup and handling character. Generally we try to avoid the entry understeer by jacking the kart and lifting the inside rear tire. How much that lifts, if at all, has a HUGE impact in how the kart handles. I always chuckle when car guys say, "handles like a go-kart". I really wonder if they've ever raced karts. They are not easy to drive, or to handle. Yes, you can pull very high G's, and yes they are agile due to the weight and distribution, but they are extremely finicky, easy to unsettle and hard to drive really fast. At any rate, yes, I get this. I have really no clue on handling dynamics or chassis setup details of the F600 but I get this general concept.

There is one thing I don't get about F600 and that's how they handle chain misalignment. It seems the rear suspension is semi-independent, in that it has two shock units and that it is all heimed so it can roll, but the engine is fixed. Seems to me there would be some twist in the chain, or perhaps some binding there when power is applied.

As far as the CVT, I can see how that would be a advantage for AX, but I really dislike them for a number of rather illogical reasons. I try to be fairly biased but the noise, the way the power comes on, the way they rev out all is not to my personal liking. I get that it works, and works real well from an engineering standpoint. Two-stroke karts with a high-stall clutch are much like this, and it's rather annoying as well (although not as efficient as a CVT).

[Apexcarver]

The rear axle is a solid bar, but at least in my case, it is a 4 link with a panhard rod. On my setup, the primary clutch is on the crank(left of car), the secondary clutch on a jackshaft in front of the engine with a chain to the rear axle on the right hand side of the car. The chain is able to handle the misalignment and the geometry does not create a sufficient amount of length difference to cause a problem. I dont set it super tight and have not thrown a chain due to geometry. My car initially used a cogged belt for the final drive when I got it rather than a chain, but I converted it so that I could change ratios to go back and forth for autocross. (I have had two final drive failures, one sprocket hub failure fixed due to autocross launches fixed with a more robust part, and one master link failure because I thought a clip style would be ok... it wasnt.. I rivet now. both failures were at autocross)

Dirt track microsprints operate similarly, and in fact, many newer F5/F6 cars use splined aluminium axles that were initially designed and marketed for them, such as https://www.hyperracing.com/Micro-Sp...RoCgbsQAvD_BwE

On the understeer, for autocross, we use a lot of caster to assist unloading the inside rear. For higher speed (read - track) it really isnt a problem.

Yeah, the 2 stroke/cvt noise is a common complaint we hear... At least you acknowledge its a personal taste thing! The bike motors do sound glorious though! And I would like to point out that you can get a replacement junkyard bike motor for less $$ than a trackworthy engine for pretty much any other formula class. Especially if you consider it as a "motor+trans".

[TimH]

I would HIGHLY recommend you come to a couple races this season & get a better look at the cars in all the classes you have mentioned. That will give you a much better feel & understand of everything, as there is a lot more to it than just the cars.

This. The cars, the tires, the community. Especially the community.

[MKnauf]

The rear axle is a solid bar, but at least in my case, it is a 4 link with a panhard rod. On my setup, the primary clutch is on the crank(left of car), the secondary clutch on a jackshaft in front of the engine with a chain to the rear axle on the right hand side of the car. The chain is able to handle the misalignment and the geometry does not create a sufficient amount of length difference to cause a problem. I dont set it super tight and have not thrown a chain due to geometry. My car initially used a cogged belt for the final drive when I got it rather than a chain, but I converted it so that I could change ratios to go back and forth for autocross. (I have had two final drive failures, one sprocket hub failure fixed due to autocross launches fixed with a more robust part, and one master link failure because I thought a clip style would be ok... it wasnt.. I rivet now. both failures were at autocross)

Dirt track microsprints operate similarly, and in fact, many newer F5/F6 cars use splined aluminium axles that were initially designed and marketed for them, such as https://www.hyperracing.com/Micro-Sp...RoCgbsQAvD_BwE

On the understeer, for autocross, we use a lot of caster to assist unloading the inside rear. For higher speed (read - track) it really isnt a problem.

Yeah, the 2 stroke/cvt noise is a common complaint we hear... At least you acknowledge its a personal taste thing! The bike motors do sound glorious though! And I would like to point out that you can get a replacement junkyard bike motor for less $$ than a trackworthy engine for pretty much any other formula class. Especially if you consider it as a "motor+trans".

I'm getting to the point where I probably should pm a couple people, but I'll keep it public for now as it may be helpful to someone else. I'm sure the answers exist somewhere, but sometimes the search can be daunting.

At any rate - regarding the rear suspension, that makes sense and I figured this was the case or there was some kind of mechanism I couldn't see in the sprocket hub that allowed for some misalignment.

I was only a few days less old than I am now when I found out that 600cc 4 cycles were a thing in F600. I thought it was still all two-strokes. I haven't been involved in any SCCA events in at least 15 years and a lot things have changed that I've missed. That certainly does make F600 more appealing to me, although in my limited search since my OP and when I made that claim about not being interested in them, I've noticed that the 4 cycle ones were a bit more on the expensive side. But, my data points are few.

Regarding the mechanical jacking - do the wider fronts help with that? On karts, I tended to prefer running my front end wider than adding too much caster. The only time you couldn't get away with that was when it was wet, then you needed to dial in more. Some people would run narrow front widths and more caster, but to me, I could never get used to it. It makes the steering really twitchy, really non-linear and really heavy. I preferred to have a setup that allowed me to turn the wheel a bit more and get more steering resolution. But I know what you mean about the effect changing with speed.

At any rate, this certainly opens this option up for me, although if it was dollar for dollar, I'd probably rather go for CFF.

[Apexcarver]

The wider fronts definitely help with low speed turn in and understeer.

The bike motors cars are a bit more expensive as they are a newer addition to the class, so they are either a conversion that someone sunk money into, or a newer build that started as a bike motor. Either way, more expensive than my car that's been racing since 1994 .

CFF was definitely the other class I was interested in. You do have an easier time finding places to run with vintage groups etc. the tradeoff is more expensive. Drivetrain costs more for the CFF, I fear what a blown engine or trans costs for one. F6 doesn't have dampers to spend a ton of money on either. For autox, FMod is way faster than Cmod, which was attractive to me.

[MKnauf]

The wider fronts definitely help with low speed turn in and understeer.

The bike motors cars are a bit more expensive as they are a newer addition to the class, so they are either a conversion that someone sunk money into, or a newer build that started as a bike motor. Either way, more expensive than my car that's been racing since 1994 .

CFF was definitely the other class I was interested in. You do have an easier time finding places to run with vintage groups etc. the tradeoff is more expensive. Drivetrain costs more for the CFF, I fear what a blown engine or trans costs for one. F6 doesn't have dampers to spend a ton of money on either. For autox, FMod is way faster than Cmod, which was attractive to me.

Yeah - CFF engines make me nervous. It's kind of a boat anchor compared to something like a 600 out of a bike, I think parts are getting more rare and expensive (although I think more aftermarket stuff due to popularity) and I've seen what an engine build costs!

But they run a lot a lower RPM and are balanced, so in theory they should be fine.

I don't think there's any engine in competitive racing that won't cause some financial anxiety, no matter how low output, low tech they are. Karts were still using flatheads a little over a decade ago (mini dragster still do, I think), and they were not cheap to have blueprinted and to maintain. The switch to OHV engines wasn't cheap either as any of the spec engines did not catch on right away and people went right back to blueprinting and running them on methanol. Which, TBH, methanol frickin' rips as a race fuel but it's very corrosive to aluminum. Right before I wound up giving it up I had bought a sealed OHV, gas spec engine for my wife to use and for me to test in anticipation that the 4 cycles were going to switch over to them. I didn't quite make it that long, but they did eventually wind up going that way.

[Apexcarver]

Bright point to the F6 rules is that the restrictors basically moot the advantages of digging too deep into the motor, plus the rules restrict a lot, so it works out well without having expensive spec sealed motors.

But the vintage racing opportunities for CFF are a big thing to consider.

[Rich_G_SC]

Hi,

I ran a solo-vee (1600 engine and wide tires) in the late 90s / early 2000s because it was all I could afford (just barely) at the time. It was fun but also frustrating. In some regions there are few to no open wheel AutoX cars and FM (now CM) class included F500s which were almost impossible to beat without doing custom trans ratios like Scott Nardin ran when he won nationals. Changing ratios in the VW trans is super hard for average folks so you'd need a dedicated AutoX gearbox. I understand that now the CF class includes FF cars which I don't think a solo vee can touch, even with the 1915 engine.

Once I got to a point where I could afford road racing I went that way and would really never consider going back to AutoX. The total costs are higher but the cost per minute of track time is actually lower and it's much more fun. Throw in the camaraderie of the class participants, socials, community etc there is no comparison. AutoX you're going to do maybe 5 runs at 35-60 sec each then spend hours on hot asphalt chasing cones. RR gets you 2.5 hours on track (in CCS and DC) plus plenty of time to hang out with the other drivers.

tl;dr - if you can afford road racing I suggest you just focus there.

I wish you well with your plans,
Rich