New Club Racing Proposal

[DaveW]

So did skyrocketing costs, lousy race groupings, etc., cause low attendance, or did low attendance cause lousy race groupings, etc.? IMO, it's both - It's a vicious spiral.

Also, a lot of young people are into addictive social media, gaming, etc., where there is little to no physical exertion, mechanical expertise, etc., required.

It's hard to get people off the couch when they've been there most of their lives.

IMO, the internet and smart phones are killing physical involvement.

The attempts to organize, get more cars out, etc. are hopeful, but we're still trying to overcome some basic realities that have been in the making for 40+ years.

[Spengo]

So did skyrocketing costs, lousy race groupings, etc., cause low attendance, or did low attendance cause lousy race groupings, etc.? IMO, it's both - It's a vicious spiral.

Also, young people are into addictive social media, gaming, etc., where there is little to no physical exertion, mechanical expertise, etc., required.

It's hard to get people off the couch when they've been there most of their lives.

IMO, the internet and smart phones are killing physical involvement.

The attempts to organize, get more cars out, etc. are hopeful, but we're still trying to overcome some basic realities that have been in the making for 40+ years.

I know lots of 30-somethings who enjoy doing and making things physically, some of them have been invaluable resources to me in running my own car. The biggest cost barrier right now is not something within the SCCA's power to control. It's impossible to have racing cars as a hobby if you don't own a house with a garage and a place to park a big trailer. This is unfortunately the situation for many of my peers these days. I do not envy anyone trying to get their starter home for half a million dollars plus tip with a 7% 30-year mortgage and I doubt those who can swing that have much spare cash left over for a racecar.

[DaveW]

I know lots of 30-somethings who enjoy doing and making things physically, some of them have been invaluable resources to me in running my own car. The biggest cost barrier right now is not something within the SCCA's power to control. It's impossible to have racing cars as a hobby if you don't own a house with a garage and a place to park a big trailer. This is unfortunately the situation for many of my peers these days. I do not envy anyone trying to get their starter home for half a million dollars plus tip with a 7% 30-year mortgage and I doubt those who can swing that have much spare cash left over for a racecar.

Yeah, everything now costs 10-15 times what it was back when I started racing my used FV in 1968. We were really lucky to be racing back then.

[FVRacer21]

I am a little confused by their replies now...
It now sounds like it -is- a matter of participation numbers?
But yet, in earlier press releases back when this first came out, they literally said it was because smallbore openwheel could not be combined with other classes & they were bumping us for SMX.

I see a lot of SCCA brass on that "Friends" list... why don't they simply tell us what needs to happen for us to be "reinstated"?

It's almost like the IRS. They know what we need to pay in taxes, yet it is up to us to figure out what we need to pay in taxes. And if we get that number wrong, they penalize us.

There are two problems:
1. We don't have big numbers
2. We don't play nice with closed wheel.

Imagine you are back in 1964 and a member of the "alphabet classes" and these upstart FV's show up with 40 cars and get their own race. Well history repeats sometimes.

Rough numbers - If I remember the pre-entry for the ST at Sebring was around 300, ended up with around 240. All races were 30+ except for SMX (24) and STL (13). Could they have put STL in with SMX and freed up a race group? With hindsight - yes. But I don't know about the preregistration mix. If we could get 30 cars between FF, FV and F6, then could we force them to combine other classes???? Maybe. But when was the small OW group ever much more than 15 last year - except at RA?

The question that is a good one is what happens when 20+ FF or FV start showing up and or Radicals start showing up in numbers, or Club Spec takes off and they want a piece of the pie - who loses then? Hmmmm

ChrisZ

[FVRacer21]

Here are the draft supps for the Sebring Bonus Major:

https://dl.motorsportreg.com/8ff0719...-daec50a1d72f/

(my original link has not been updated yet)

Mr Davis will not be happy as it looks like while the (one) race will be separate, the practice and qualifying may be combined.

The race does not have a sanction # yet so things are subject to change.

Without real numbers it is tough analyze the potential grouping....

It is cheaper.....and is supposed to be streamed.

ChrisZ

[Mike B]

In 2024, for FF, there were 11 of the 37 Majors (30%) where 1 or less cars showed up. There were zero entries at 8% of the Majors. For the HST, it was 30% with three or less. 10% with zero.

The optimist would say in 2024 there were FF entries in 92% of the Majors and 4 or more entries at 70% of HST. That sounds pretty darn good.

The reality is, the SCCA does not own, prep, load the cars into trailers and show up at the race track - we do. The primary reason we are were we are today is the low entry count for the small formula cars.



So, the reality is, we created the situation. The SCCA is simply reacting. I've been talking at length and often to our people at our SCCA. They all want FF to recover and grow. Every single one of them with passion. They are hoping and praying that we enter races. They note it's a temporary situation if we recover. They can't do it for us. So lets get into Walmart and buy Coke.

I am a little confused by their replies now...
It now sounds like it -is- a matter of participation numbers?
But yet, in earlier press releases back when this first came out, they literally said it was because smallbore openwheel could not be combined with other classes & they were bumping us for SMX.

I see a lot of SCCA brass on that "Friends" list... why don't they simply tell us what needs to happen for us to be "reinstated"?

It's almost like the IRS. They know what we need to pay in taxes, yet it is up to us to figure out what we need to pay in taxes. And if we get that number wrong, they penalize us.

I think the FF and FV crowd is being gaslighted.
According to the SCCA's own data from 2024, FV was the 8th most popular class and FF was the 14th most popular. In my opinion, those are numbers that deserve a spot at the adult's table. There are quite a few classes with less participation that have been untouched. The primary reason that FF and FV are where they are today is because the people in the top half of your friends list arbitrarily and unilaterally decided to remove those two fairly healthy classes from HST. No other reason.

I'll reiterate that you and the group you've mobilized are doing amazing things and putting a ton of work into this, and only good things will come of it. I'm personally willing to help in any way I can.

[John LaRue]

The HST problem was one of run groups not classes. Indeed, FV and FF had reasonably good numbers relative to other classes; F6 did not and thus the small bore formula run group was consistently undersubscribed as compared to the others. That is what made those classes (that group) a target for the restructure at the HST level. The CRB will continue to evaluate this and determine if there is an approach that will improve the racing for everyone at all levels.

Tony's efforts on behalf of FF cannot be praised enough. Getting cars on track is what this is all about and what makes it enjoyable for all. The computer jockeys can discuss and debate the how's and why's but the racers need to get to the track. There are enough formula and prototype cars and drivers to have healthy grids IF they decide to partake.

[Matt Clark]

John,
As one of the people on the list & the CRB Chair, are you saying that just increasing numbers is the key?
What is the number needed for FF/FV to hit? 30 cars total for the run group on average?
Obviously there is more discussion to be had about how to go about that, but if the CRB or whoever from SCCA could put a hard number on things, that may alleviate a lot of the frustration & anger we are seeing. Even if we were told X cars is needed for 2025 or 2026, then revise the needs after a year, that'd be a huge start.

[Bob Wright]

To expand on Dave W's comment about vicious cycle: The groupings dictated by Topeka for the HST events contributed to the problem as the large wings and things group was ungainly and made for less than sterling racing. We who drive FCs have pleaded any number of times to be in the small formula group, not the large- it fell on deaf ears. This would perhaps have changed the dynamic. Topeka said no, so FC continued to have bad experiences interacting with P2s and the enhanced FE2 and maybe stopped coming.

I know there is an argument that the FCs are too fast for the FVs, but look at the alternative we're all talking about now....

[John LaRue]

John,
As one of the people on the list & the CRB Chair, are you saying that just increasing numbers is the key?
What is the number needed for FF/FV to hit? 30 cars total for the run group on average?
Obviously there is more discussion to be had about how to go about that, but if the CRB or whoever from SCCA could put a hard number on things, that may alleviate a lot of the frustration & anger we are seeing. Even if we were told X cars is needed for 2025 or 2026, then revise the needs after a year, that'd be a huge start.

I wish it were that easy. The number for an automatic invitation to Runoffs is 5.0 average over the trailing two-year period. Of course, many classes will not hit that average but will be invited, it is an arbitrary break point. The key is figuring out how to better manage the number of run groups that are needed for a successful event. My personal opinion is that we need 3 groups for all of the open wheel and prototype classes. That amount of time under the existing scheduling model is difficult to come by, especially at the events early in the year where there is less daylight and other time constraints. I am encouraging the CRB and others who are involved to look outside of the box for ways to better organize and structure our races. Stay tuned, we are diligently working on this.

[CheckeredFlag]

My personal opinion is that we need 3 groups for all of the open wheel and prototype classes.

Personally, I think all of our FE2 guys would agree with this wholeheartedly.

That amount of time under the existing scheduling model is difficult to come by

I have to agree with you here, too.

Thus, the CRB and HST folks have a challenge.

[DaveW]

To expand on Dave W's comment about vicious spiral: The groupings dictated by Topeka for the HST events contributed to the problem as the large wings and things group was ungainly and made for less than sterling racing. We who drive FCs have pleaded any number of times to be in the small formula group, not the large- it fell on deaf ears. This would perhaps have changed the dynamic. Topeka said no, so FC continued to have bad experiences interacting with P2s and the enhanced FE2 and maybe stopped coming.

I know there is an argument that the FCs are too fast for the FVs, but look at the alternative we're all talking about now....

The final straw in my participation in club racing was my 2 separate incidents in a group of 8 wings & things classes in the 2010 July 4th Nelson Ledges double National.

1. light contact with a P2 in the 1st lap of an 8 AM Saturday practice where he was totally unaware of his surroundings and we came together, followed by him and his crew coming over to me in the pit lane and starting a fight where I was shoved into my car and broke the expensive QSRE Zetec engine airbox - he received no significant penalty.

2. being knocked out of the 2-race weekend in the Saturday afternoon race 1 in an incident caused by a DSR driver 20 seconds off the pace of a normal 65-second lap causing a multicar wreck in turn 12 (the LH "barn turn"). In spite of being an obvious danger, he was allowed to race because he was a close friend of the people officiating the race. Many drivers had warned of this, but our warnings of what could happen were ignored.

At that point it was obvious to Sherrie and me that continuing to race in SCCA club events was too dangerous, costly, and frustrating to continue.

That's when I started to race exclusively with FRP.

[Matt Clark]

I wish it were that easy. The number for an automatic invitation to Runoffs is 5.0 average over the trailing two-year period. Of course, many classes will not hit that average but will be invited, it is an arbitrary break point. The key is figuring out how to better manage the number of run groups that are needed for a successful event. My personal opinion is that we need 3 groups for all of the open wheel and prototype classes. That amount of time under the existing scheduling model is difficult to come by, especially at the events early in the year where there is less daylight and other time constraints. I am encouraging the CRB and others who are involved to look outside of the box for ways to better organize and structure our races. Stay tuned, we are diligently working on this.

Fair enough.
Assuming you cannot really tell us what all is being considered, I would submit a possible solution would be the person right above you.

If FRP is already partnering with other groups, perhaps SCCA & FRP can finally work together... or let FRP take more control over the F/SR classes. That has been suggested many times over the last several years, perhaps now is the time to seriously consider it. The west coast is not really affected by the HST exclusion, so FRP not being on the west coast is ok. The mid-west & mid-south would still be an issue, but baby steps. The mid-atlantic & northeast obviously would be where the partnership works.

I also realize that kindasorta is not much different than excluding the FF & FV classes from HST events like we are doing now, which has people upset.

I know there is an argument that the FCs are too fast for the FVs, but look at the alternative we're all talking about now....

The current alternative we are in isn't great, but mixing FC & FV still scares me. Having done both, it is certainly more of a comfortable idea from the FC seat, but potentially disastrous from the FV cockpit. I am picturing the typical FV pack battle with a FC catching up. We are too busy worrying about the several cars moving all around us to track a FC wanting to make their way thru too.
Slightly different situation than SCCA slick racing, but we've seen the trains & consistent 3-4 wide racing with Challenge Cup. The FC is gonna want to get thru before we fan out at the end of the straight or get into a corner where we really slow down comparatively. And (right or wrong) the FVs are probably going to start considering "preventative" moves on the FC if it is late in the race & may hinder a finishing position.

I also realize the argument about the FC being fast enough to scoot thru & potentially be cleared faster... but at least a FF is a little slower & doesn't have quite the cornering speed to catch us by surprise.

[douglap1]

The GCR 1.4.2.D states: "It is preferable not to combine FA, FC, FE, or FX, with FV, F600 or FF. . FV may be combined withF600 and FF."

So, perhaps a change in the GCR should be requested. In my experience, FC cars can run well with FF and F600 without being held up too badly. An FC car will usually lap a field of FF and F600 cars one time during a race, and that can typically be accomplished without any drama if everyone stays aware.

However, an FC car can lap an FV field two or even three times during a race, and the closing speeds in high speed flat-out corners is pretty ridiculous. I'm not sure how the FF guys feel, but I would like to see FV have there own run group from a safety standpoint, and I'm sure the FV guys would like that too.

Someone suggested having 3 run groups for formula and prototype cars, but I'm not sure that is enough, when you consider the FV cars, and of course our "cousins" in the SRF3 cars. In my FC car, I have been combined with the SRF3 guys before, and that's not good either. They seem to have trouble seeing a formula car coming up on them, and their idea of qualifying and racing is to form a drafting train that creates a mobile road block.

Personally, I would be willing to shorten our races in order to have more run groups. We usually have the finishing order sorted out in less than 10 laps anyway.

To expand on Dave W's comment about vicious cycle: The groupings dictated by Topeka for the HST events contributed to the problem as the large wings and things group was ungainly and made for less than sterling racing. We who drive FCs have pleaded any number of times to be in the small formula group, not the large- it fell on deaf ears. This would perhaps have changed the dynamic. Topeka said no, so FC continued to have bad experiences interacting with P2s and the enhanced FE2 and maybe stopped coming.

I know there is an argument that the FCs are too fast for the FVs, but look at the alternative we're all talking about now....

[John LaRue]

Fair enough.
Assuming you cannot really tell us what all is being considered, I would submit a possible solution would be the person right above you.

If FRP is already partnering with other groups, perhaps SCCA & FRP can finally work together... or let FRP take more control over the F/SR classes. That has been suggested many times over the last several years, perhaps now is the time to seriously consider it. The west coast is not really affected by the HST exclusion, so FRP not being on the west coast is ok. The mid-west & mid-south would still be an issue, but baby steps. The mid-atlantic & northeast obviously would be where the partnership works.

I also realize that kindasorta is not much different than excluding the FF & FV classes from HST events like we are doing now, which has people upset.

Candidly the CRB will consider anything that will improve the on-track experience. I try to keep track of the on-line suggestions but ideas submitted through that damn letter system actually work best. You can also email or IM me as well.

We were working to get FRP and SCCA aligned for a few events but scheduling derailed that for 2024. There apparently are issues that are above my pay grade so I was pulled off that project in July 2024 - it is now in the hands of SCCA Staff. Fortunately there are no serious conflicts in 2025 so perhaps we can get some crossover. Given that FRP now occasionally combines FA and FC the groupings should be pretty similar. I anticipate an FC/FA grouping at June Sprints and we will have an FF/FC grouping for Runoffs. The select FC events (Pitt, June Sprints, Ozarks, Mid-Ohio) will likewise have the favored groupings.

[Goallie11]

I would highly be against having FC and FV in the same group. Sometimes it has to be done if there aren't enough cars to make more groups, or at Waterford Hills, all formula cars are in the same group, and it's terrifying the speed difference.

The possibility of hitting each other in corners is much higher.

[RideMore]

I would highly be against having FC and FV in the same group. Sometimes it has to be done if there aren't enough cars to make more groups, or at Waterford Hills, all formula cars are in the same group, and it's terrifying the speed difference.

The possibility of hitting each other in corners is much higher.

Goalie from Michigan, a glorious hockey state!

Agreed on FV an FC don't mix well together, so its a good thing the GCR already says that.

[douglap1]

Goalie from Michigan, a glorious hockey state!

Agreed on FV an FC don't mix well together, so its a good thing the GCR already says that.

Read it carefully - it also says that FC should not be combined with FF, which I disagree with.

[E1pix]

So did skyrocketing costs, lousy race groupings, etc., cause low attendance, or did low attendance cause lousy race groupings, etc.? IMO, it's both - It's a vicious spiral.

Also, a lot of young people are into addictive social media, gaming, etc., where there is little to no physical exertion, mechanical expertise, etc., required.

It's hard to get people off the couch when they've been there most of their lives.

IMO, the internet and smart phones are killing physical involvement.

The attempts to organize, get more cars out, etc. are hopeful, but we're still trying to overcome some basic realities that have been in the making for 40+ years.

I vote this Most Important Post, maybe ever.

[924RACR]

There are enough formula and prototype cars and drivers to have healthy grids IF they decide to partake.

Not likely to ever happen again in the Prototype classes, now that the rules are worse than ever...

[reidhazelton]

I vote this Most Important Post, maybe ever.

That post shows a huge generational disconnect. When I was 20, starting in SCCA on my own dime, people never listened to anything I said despite complaining there are no younger people around. It's the same today.

Younger generations aren't lazy, disinterested in cars, lack mechanical ability, or only care about video games. 1000% wrong.

Go to a GridLife event. Go to a Chumpcar event. Go to a LeMons event. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone over 40 at a GridLife event and they are packed with entries.

What is different for younger generations is the cost of living, housing, and racing is stratosphericlly more expensive than it was in the 90s. Add in wage stagnation and there isn't anything left to spend on the $10s of thousands it takes to go racing. My best friends are all into autocross, heavily. They spend their weekends in their garages. They would love to go wheel-to-wheel racing. When I tell them an entry fee is $800, that's an instant non-starter. That's their entire annual autocross entry fee budget. The cost of racing today is so far beyond what middle-class people can afford it's impossible.

If they want to go wheel-to-wheel, it's easy. Do all the work yourself, have no time for a girlfriend/boyfriend/family, be massively financially irresponsible, put off having kids, put off owning a house, stop going out with friends, and eat nothing but knock-off Cheerios and expired hotdogs. Then maybe you can afford a 30 year old, noncompetitive car running on worn out, take-off tires.

I can't express how irritating these types of posts are. Perhaps, younger generations don't come to SCCA events because they don't want to get **** on and told they are lazy. Just a thought.

[E1pix]

I appreciate the passion in your post, Reid, and on its face could not agree more.

I have grave concerns for what is faced by younger people today. GRAVE. No judgment in that at all, just concerns if not embarrassment for what “we” left them.

It’s a common topic on our travels, we’re in a VW bus, that alone attracts “kids” in droves, and I routinely go deep in current states of affairs. We’ve discussed this with *hundreds* over our 4,200 days of ongoing travel. The stories we hear bring my wife and I both almost to tears. No hope, no chance in hell of a house, degree be damned.

The internet may be failing us in subtlety here. I know Dave well, and know he meant zero harm. Without speaking for him, nobody implied “all younger people” in any sense. Where things stand is not their fault.

For myself, though, there’s no question that electro-gadgets and lifestyles have made a *massive negative impact* on social, mechanical, creative, and interpretive sources of inspiration — and might even say without seeing things “Then,” younger people aren’t seeing the downsides of “Now” through eyes that saw greater days.

You compare things to the ‘90s. I’m discussing changes since the ‘60s.

What “kids” do see is often without a sense of future — but I do not think they can fully understand the correlation of tech and its dire impacts on everything, and think that was the intent of the above posts.

I think you know how much I respect you, so please consider this response as solely “positive and very concerned,” and nothing else.

Thanks for the honesty. It’s a worthy conversation bearing deep review — even if “off-topic.”

Regards and Respects.

[brian styczynski]

The HST problem was one of run groups not classes. Indeed, FV and FF had reasonably good numbers relative to other classes; F6 did not and thus the small bore formula run group was consistently undersubscribed as compared to the others. That is what made those classes (that group) a target for the restructure at the HST level. The CRB will continue to evaluate this and determine if there is an approach that will improve the racing for everyone at all levels.

Tony's efforts on behalf of FF cannot be praised enough. Getting cars on track is what this is all about and what makes it enjoyable for all. The computer jockeys can discuss and debate the how's and why's but the racers need to get to the track. There are enough formula and prototype cars and drivers to have healthy grids IF they decide to partake.

First of all, like F6, GTX is not a runoffs eligible class. Yet GTX is invited to HST. The goal of new HST rules was to get smaller run groups. Adding GTX pushed that run group over 50. The creation of a group 8 instead of running STL with SMX is questionable. Combining the 2 single class run groups would have less than 50 cars. Instead, sebring saw 2.8 miata run groups, STL field was 10/13 miatas, and included cars that also ran in SM or SMX. Group 8 was 4 cars smaller than the FF/FV/F6 group last year. You could say there wouldn't be F6 this year but I would like to point back at GTX.

Finally, while this was happening, the VP of Road racing raised his hand when he saw there was a list of friends of FF. He was not included in the original because he has done nothing, and shown no interest if FF until the list was publicly posted. I can not think of a more gas lighting situation.

Please join us at the road racing and HST discussions at the national convention

[LenFC11]

That post shows a huge generational disconnect. When I was 20, starting in SCCA on my own dime, people never listened to anything I said despite complaining there are no younger people around. It's the same today.

Younger generations aren't lazy, disinterested in cars, lack mechanical ability, or only care about video games. 1000% wrong.

Go to a GridLife event. Go to a Chumpcar event. Go to a LeMons event. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone over 40 at a GridLife event and they are packed with entries.

What is different for younger generations is the cost of living, housing, and racing is stratosphericlly more expensive than it was in the 90s. Add in wage stagnation and there isn't anything left to spend on the $10s of thousands it takes to go racing. My best friends are all into autocross, heavily. They spend their weekends in their garages. They would love to go wheel-to-wheel racing. When I tell them an entry fee is $800, that's an instant non-starter. That's their entire annual autocross entry fee budget. The cost of racing today is so far beyond what middle-class people can afford it's impossible.

If they want to go wheel-to-wheel, it's easy. Do all the work yourself, have no time for a girlfriend/boyfriend/family, be massively financially irresponsible, put off having kids, put off owning a house, stop going out with friends, and eat nothing but knock-off Cheerios and expired hotdogs. Then maybe you can afford a 30 year old, noncompetitive car running on worn out, take-off tires.

I can't express how irritating these types of posts are. Perhaps, younger generations don't come to SCCA events because they don't want to get **** on and told they are lazy. Just a thought.

Couldn’t agree more

I stated it earlier in one of these threads. It’s all just preaching to the choir.

All here are all ready involved. Do the same. Expect the same

I don’t have the answers to make it happen but what’s needed is 2-3 max including travel time and reasonable costs

without this happening nothing changes

[John LaRue]

That post shows a huge generational disconnect. When I was 20, starting in SCCA on my own dime, people never listened to anything I said despite complaining there are no younger people around. It's the same today.

Younger generations aren't lazy, disinterested in cars, lack mechanical ability, or only care about video games. 1000% wrong.

Go to a GridLife event. Go to a Chumpcar event. Go to a LeMons event. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone over 40 at a GridLife event and they are packed with entries.

What is different for younger generations is the cost of living, housing, and racing is stratosphericlly more expensive than it was in the 90s. Add in wage stagnation and there isn't anything left to spend on the $10s of thousands it takes to go racing. My best friends are all into autocross, heavily. They spend their weekends in their garages. They would love to go wheel-to-wheel racing. When I tell them an entry fee is $800, that's an instant non-starter. That's their entire annual autocross entry fee budget. The cost of racing today is so far beyond what middle-class people can afford it's impossible.

If they want to go wheel-to-wheel, it's easy. Do all the work yourself, have no time for a girlfriend/boyfriend/family, be massively financially irresponsible, put off having kids, put off owning a house, stop going out with friends, and eat nothing but knock-off Cheerios and expired hotdogs. Then maybe you can afford a 30 year old, noncompetitive car running on worn out, take-off tires.

I can't express how irritating these types of posts are. Perhaps, younger generations don't come to SCCA events because they don't want to get **** on and told they are lazy. Just a thought.

I am open to ideas - given the current costs of racing, travel, track rental ($35k + per day) can it be done? The programs you reference are apples and oranges in comparison. Autocross is not road racing.

[Matt Clark]

I am open to ideas - given the current costs of racing, travel, track rental ($35k + per day) can it be done? The programs you reference are apples and oranges in comparison. Autocross is not road racing.

to be fair... GridLife, LeMons & ChumpCar is not AX either. they are still wheel to wheel, drifting, or both (GridLife). and run at the same tracks we in SCCA do.
but what I notice with those groups & their classes, is less "rules" on what can be raced. people can build & get really creative within a much wider set of parameters.

[DaveW]

That post shows a huge generational disconnect. When I was 20, starting in SCCA on my own dime, people never listened to anything I said despite complaining there are no younger people around. It's the same today.

Younger generations aren't lazy, disinterested in cars, lack mechanical ability, or only care about video games. 1000% wrong.

Go to a GridLife event. Go to a Chumpcar event. Go to a LeMons event. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone over 40 at a GridLife event and they are packed with entries.

What is different for younger generations is the cost of living, housing, and racing is stratosphericlly more expensive than it was in the 90s. Add in wage stagnation and there isn't anything left to spend on the $10s of thousands it takes to go racing. My best friends are all into autocross, heavily. They spend their weekends in their garages. They would love to go wheel-to-wheel racing. When I tell them an entry fee is $800, that's an instant non-starter. That's their entire annual autocross entry fee budget. The cost of racing today is so far beyond what middle-class people can afford it's impossible.

If they want to go wheel-to-wheel, it's easy. Do all the work yourself, have no time for a girlfriend/boyfriend/family, be massively financially irresponsible, put off having kids, put off owning a house, stop going out with friends, and eat nothing but knock-off Cheerios and expired hotdogs. Then maybe you can afford a 30 year old, noncompetitive car running on worn out, take-off tires.

I can't express how irritating these types of posts are. Perhaps, younger generations don't come to SCCA events because they don't want to get **** on and told they are lazy. Just a thought.

Reid,

I didn't say my post comment below applied to ALL young people - I said "a lot" which doesn't mean "most or all.":
---------------------------------------------------------------------
"Also, a lot of young people are into addictive social media, gaming, etc., where there is little to no physical exertion, mechanical expertise, etc., required.

It's hard to get people off the couch when they've been there most of their lives."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
What I meant was that it's one of the many factors affecting participation, and I said that.

I'm sorry if that offended you, because I didn't mean to offend.

[Matt Clark]

as a follow-up to my last post quick, I got curious about GridLife entry fees.
they are pretty much inline with SCCA prices.

Mid-Ohio
wheel to wheel- $575
time attack- $575
HPDE- $425

CMP
wheel to wheel- $625
time attack- $625
HPDE- $425

Laguna Seca
wheel to wheel- $975
time attack- $975
HPDE- $775

Road America
wheel to wheel- $925
time attack- $925
HPDE- $575

Pitt
wheel to wheel- $495
time attack- $495
HPDE- $455

https://www.grid.life/news/2024/1/gr...gold-pass-2024

[DanW]

as a follow-up to my last post quick, I got curious about GridLife entry fees.
they are pretty much inline with SCCA prices.

Mid-Ohio
wheel to wheel- $575
time attack- $575
HPDE- $425

CMP
wheel to wheel- $625
time attack- $625
HPDE- $425

Laguna Seca
wheel to wheel- $975
time attack- $975
HPDE- $775

Road America
wheel to wheel- $925
time attack- $925
HPDE- $575

Pitt
wheel to wheel- $495
time attack- $495
HPDE- $455

https://www.grid.life/news/2024/1/gr...gold-pass-2024

For Northern CA, tracks I completely agree. As a data point, Laguna Seca now charges $18,000 per weekend day with a 103dBA sound limit.

[FVRacer21]

I was going to ask a different question than what is being discussed. The base of the SCCA used to be the 21 to 28 group, working out of their or their parents garage. For the all the reasons stated, for the SCCA, this is not the base anymore. We don't want to forget them, as they could be the long term future of the club, but they are not the only answer.

I was wondering what the percentage of the current large classes, SM, SMX, SRF - and I will add in FE - are arrive and drive?

This would attract a wealthier group - who does not need the tools or the space to store and work on car. This would also include drivers who own a car, but have stored and worked on by prep shops.

This could include younger drivers - graduates of karting for example, who might find that the SCCA is not as expensive as other groups; I assume some of the kids in SMX fit this mold. This would also include older, more stable professionals, or those whose family has grown and now are looking to fill a personal bucket list.

Do we need formula car booths at professional events to attract this person? Of course who has time to do this while we are all busy racing? How do we reach them?

ChrisZ

[douglap1]

As I've noted before on these forums, our SCCA Atlanta Region has utilized my FC car at several Caffeine & Octane shows, and the results are amazing. We typically have a long line of young people and some middle aged guys who want to sit in my car and see what it's like.

It has worked in recruiting some young people into the F&C ranks, where they are really needed, and I have even enlisted some volunteer engineering student crew members from our shows. Hopefully, we have also planted a few seeds for future drivers. No, it's not going to fix our current problems, but you never know when you may have a positive influence on the future.

This works - you guys should try it elsewhere.

I was going to ask a different question than what is being discussed. The base of the SCCA used to be the 21 to 28 group, working out of their or their parents garage. For the all the reasons stated, for the SCCA, this is not the base anymore. We don't want to forget them, as they could be the long term future of the club, but they are not the only answer.

I was wondering what the percentage of the current large classes, SM, SMX, SRF - and I will add in FE - are arrive and drive?

This would attract a wealthier group - who does not need the tools or the space to store and work on car. This would also include drivers who own a car, but have stored and worked on by prep shops.

This could include younger drivers - graduates of karting for example, who might find that the SCCA is not as expensive as other groups; I assume some of the kids in SMX fit this mold. This would also include older, more stable professionals, or those whose family has grown and now are looking to fill a personal bucket list.

Do we need formula car booths at professional events to attract this person? Of course who has time to do this while we are all busy racing? How do we reach them?

ChrisZ

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Go to a GridLife event. Go to a Chumpcar event. Go to a LeMons event. You'll be hard pressed to find anyone over 40 at a GridLife event and they are packed with entries.

What is different for younger generations is the cost of living, housing, and racing is stratosphericlly more expensive than it was in the 90s. Add in wage stagnation and there isn't anything left to spend on the $10s of thousands it takes to go racing. My best friends are all into autocross, heavily. They spend their weekends in their garages. They would love to go wheel-to-wheel racing. When I tell them an entry fee is $800, that's an instant non-starter. That's their entire annual autocross entry fee budget. The cost of racing today is so far beyond what middle-class people can afford it's impossible.

Several posts back someone posted something about most people living without access to a garage. I think that is a big lifestyle factor especially in markets like where I live. When things are built today, they barely get car ports. And when someone pulls out a floor jack they get evicted. Trailers, tow vehicles, storage, etc.
This type of stuff leads to changes in choices....

But I have to ask about the post above. Gridlife is $800 and the U40s are going to that. So someone is spending the money. It's not just the money. So what is it ? Is it the crowd? I can't get any younger

Crowds.....
I've been to SpeedVenture events (not-racing racing) and I could say some critical things but I will say I did not see many box trailers (maybe 10%). People either drove their car or towed on an open/rental trailer. Tents, pop-up tents, camping.
SCCA events are probably 90% box trailers and RVs. The kids feel they don't fit in.... and they only see/know rich kids racing SCCA so they too make assumptions.

What we need to do is find the younger influencers to put SCCA on the small screens. The kids are much better at this than we are.... And we need to stop criticizing. There is a guy in Instagram in SoCal posting about his adventure working on his car and going racing - in a V ! Cool. but then I see negative comments about how he's doing it wrong. I hope he ignores those comments.

I'm planning on taking my FC to a car show in June (my high-school!) I think DougLap is right. We need to go to where the people are rather than sitting waiting for them to show.

We need to 'let go'. Let go of the club. Let it mold to the new generation.

[Hardingfv32]

Costs are going up and incomes down. This is the heart of the issue and there is nothing anyone can do to change that.

"The game's in the refrigerator, the door's closed, the light's out, the eggs are cooling, the butter's getting hard and the jello's jiggling."

Brian

[reidhazelton]

I am open to ideas - given the current costs of racing, travel, track rental ($35k + per day) can it be done? The programs you reference are apples and oranges in comparison. Autocross is not road racing.

Those other options are wheel-to-wheel. ChumpCar/LeMons (or whatever they are called today) are events where the entry fees can be split amount multiple drivers, sometimes four or more.

As I said for years before I quit SCCA, it's micro costs that SCCA, the CRB, and FSRAC failed to contain. For example, every year I'd hear "what's $100 in the grand scheme of things" when it came to discussing the Runoff's entry fee. As I said then, if you say "what's $100" ten of fifteen times, you've just made that unaffordable for a lot of people. Say the same justification with unlimited shocks, gearboxes, loose engine rules, etc....and you're left where we are at now. I know a group of 5 people who stopped coming because the end goal - the Runoffs - was no longer affordable.

Also, I applaud all the work Tony Stefanelli is doing - talk about making a difference.

This is meant in no way to rain on that parade - but you are only going to get so far with the "getting the cars out of the barn" approach. The people who parked those cars 10 or 15 years ago were in their 50s then. Now, they are in their mid 60s. I don't think a lot of them are coming back. You have to get new people in. How do you do that? I don't think there is an answer for SCCA, unfortunately. It's too expensive and has a very odd business model to me.

SCCA is where you go when you have a large amount of discretionary income, but the particular class you want to run in doesn't have a "pro" option. Look what happens when a "pro" (more like single class events) show up. GT1/TA1, GT2/TA2, FA, FC, FF....SCCA fields vaporize and the single run group series explode. SCCA is left with the people who can't afford those series that, arguably, provide a better value even though that value comes at a higher cost.

GridLife, ChumpCar, LeMons have a different model - essentially run what you brung and there is a lot more flexibility to include cars, not exclude them, which has been my experience with SCCA. (I fought to get the original USF2000 cars in FC - but nope. I had two friends interested in a certain FA that was written out of the rule book for no reason, and upon asking to reinstate the spec line was told "Nope - the rules are stable where there are." Stable? It's a catch all class - who gives a ****?) That's the appeal there for younger generations - they can bring a car they slowly build and modify over the years and not be tied to a rigid rule book. The upfront cost is less and because of those rules you can do a lot of the work yourself. GridLife is an event, not just a race. It's not my thing, but it's an 18 hour party with concerts, drift "shows", and other entertainment. It's a car show within itself.

EDIT - I realized last night one thing that makes the GridLife/ChumpCar entry fees easier to swallow is that they are one or two events a year. There are not 4 GridLife events at RA every year. There is one. $800 once is much easier to splurge on than $800 four or five times. These events are seen as a once a year thing people save and plan for months ahead. They consolidated their customer based (younger gearheads) into one event, not 4.

#SorryForTheRant

[reidhazelton]

No hope, no chance in hell of a house, degree be damned.

1000%. I think the "outside factors" as you touch on are just as much of a detriment to SCCA as the things that SCCA can control are a detriment to itself.

Here is an example. I live in what is considered a blue-collar, working class neighborhood 3 miles outside of Milwaukee. You can't touch a 1,000sq' house for under $400k. Just 10 years ago housing was less than half that cost. Rent for a one bedroom apartment is at least $1200 and it's not going to be nice at all. $1500 is considered "affordable housing."

One of my best friends has an MBA, is very good at his job as a junior exec, is single with no large expenses (used car, paid off, no kids), and sells a ton of weed on the side. He tried to find a house in my neighborhood and he was so far from being able to afford it he has all but given up. He looked at a house that a guy literally died in the week before and he was outbid when he *only* went $35k over asking price. It sold in 3 days. He tells me he will just rent until he dies, and a lot of my generation and younger feels this way.

Tough to go racing when you can't buy a house. You can't work on your FF in your 3rd floor apartment.

[2BWise]

But I have to ask about the post above. Gridlife is $800 and the U40s are going to that. So someone is spending the money. It's not just the money. So what is it ? Is it the crowd? I can't get any younger

Crowds.....
I've been to SpeedVenture events (not-racing racing) and I could say some critical things but I will say I did not see many box trailers (maybe 10%). People either drove their car or towed on an open/rental trailer. Tents, pop-up tents, camping.
SCCA events are probably 90% box trailers and RVs. The kids feel they don't fit in.... and they only see/know rich kids racing SCCA so they too make assumptions.

A lot of the rationale being discussed in this thread are definitely all factors, but I do want in on 2 things right here. There are <40 yr olds spending time and money on cars. They simply found a better place to go spend their time.

+ Gridlife/Chumpcar/Lemons are all policed by one set of event organizers. Same people every event. They allow zero contact and if you are wrecking cars and not playing nicely they ask you to go home. They realize it's not srs bzns and supposed to be fun.
How many HST and Runoffs SM races are ruined by a 10 car pile up? If you are limited on time and budget why risk getting your car written off by someone else making a boneheaded move?
+ The rulebooks don't require you to be an expert in every line item to race legally. Simple rulebooks. If your engine builder has to overbore your 50 yr engine block and add +0.05 pistons the car isn't suddenly illegal. I think the Gridlife entire rulebook for the car is shorter than just the FC section on engine specs.
+ Fewer events mean more entries and bigger crowds. Last I looked the GL Midwest Festival draws 8,000 people in total. That's racers, spectators, etc. And its 3 days. What's the Runoffs pull over the course of a week? There are way too many SCCA events and they dilute themselves of entries.
+ Gridlife/Chumpcar/Lemons paddocks aren't filled with rigs that cost 10x the cars. If you roll in with a 1500 and an open trailer you fit in. Whereas, an SCCA paddock if you show up with a 2500 and a 24 ft trailer you're still one of the little guys. Granted costs for superfluous items like trucks and trailers don't effect competitiveness, but the perception is definitively true. The owner with the RV or toter running an FF has definitely spent up to get his engine prepped to within an inch of its life. Obviously has the funds to afford it. Someone running on a shoestring budget can't. Run in a class that's power/weight then guess what there's easier/cheaper ways to make the power you need to be competitive.

[CheckeredFlag]

Slightly off topic but pertinent to the post above:

Nice promo for Grid Life on the Gingerman Facebook page.
Screenshot_20250116_155717_Facebook.jpg

[CheckeredFlag]

+ The rulebooks don't require you to be an expert in every line item to race legally. Simple rulebooks.

I found the LEMONS rulebook to be an hilarious read. They definitely got some humor in that group.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

There are <40 yr olds spending time and money on cars. They simply found a better place to go spend their time.

+ The rulebooks don't require you to be an expert in every line item to race legally. Simple rulebooks.

+ Fewer events mean more entries and bigger crowds. Last I looked the GL Midwest Festival draws 8,000 people in total. That's racers, spectators, etc. And its 3 days.
+ Gridlife/Chumpcar/Lemons paddocks aren't filled with rigs that cost 10x the cars. If you roll in with a 1500 and an open trailer you fit in.

Not to argue but to point out.....

Their recap video of a last years event: https://youtu.be/UzzYOQt7M_4
On their website promoting an event later this year: https://www.grid.life/laguna
Makes me question the above points...... Maybe it's Gridlife.

It really seems like a giant car meet. A combo of entertainment and various car events. They just rent tracks so it's legal.
They do promote them as 'festivals'. Constant entertainment.

There is a lot of money spent there from cars to setups to other equipment. Not many pickups and open trailers !
And I'm certain almost every car in the video cost more than my FC.

- How many people go from Gridlife / Chump / Lemons to IMSA, IndyCar or other Pro racing?
- They seem to be promoting the style and entertainment, etc.
- Its the Grid not the track. Otherwise it would be TrackLife

This seems to go with the 'ideas' at SCCA that we are all pro racers in different stages.
At the SCCA the only entertainment is IN the car. We can't seem to get an audience because we don't entertain non-racing fans.

It's night and day.

[John Nesbitt]

...
At the SCCA the only entertainment is IN the car. We can't seem to get an audience because we don't entertain non-racing fans.
...

This is it exactly. Any 'club' activity, whether it's road racing or lawn bowling, is about the participants' own enjoyment, not about entertaining an audience.

I remember going to Summit Point for some reason a few years ago, when Hyperfest was on. It was all about burnouts, and show cars, and drift, and styling, and drinking (lots of drinking). No on-track competition in any form that we would recognize.

Different strokes for different folks.