Does the SCCA keep a repository of disciplinary decisions?

[alangbaker]

I'm in a weird situation where a Canadian driver managed to wangle himself an SCCA license to race at Mission despite a rule that Canadians must have a Canadian license to race in Canada.

And frankly, I think he got it because of some incidents he'd been sanctioned for when he held a CACC license.

So I'd like to investigate if there isn't a dangerous loophole in the rules for how drivers are licensed.

I know the CACC GCRs have a rule that explicitly permits the publication of disciplinary decisions but it doesn't require it, and I'm going to write a rules proposal that all disciplinary decisions get published, so that drivers can know exactly whom they are racing against.

Does the SCCA have a rule like this?

Is there a place where a driver can check the disciplinary decisions that have been imposed on other drivers?

The driver that brought this up for me:

• Hit me after he failed to react fast enough to a car in front of me spinning that I managed to get stopped for.
• Then on Sunday, forced my fellow FF driver off onto wet grass when he as being lapped (FV vs FF).
• I've been told had had sanctions at least a couple of times before and his CACC license suspend once.
• And to top it off, when I mentioned to another driver who was loading his FC back into his trailer about all of this, that FC driver said that he was driving FC to get away from this particular FV driver.

But all we get is word of mouth?

I honestly think we need to do better.

The aftermath:

[John Nesbitt]

A repository? Not really.

Disciplinary actions do get published in individual race results, but these are not compiled into a publicly available form. Actions that do not affect finishing order are frequently not published in race results. Actions that go to appeal are published in Fastrack.

At one time, I believe that SCCA, NASA, etc. shared suspension information, so that a driver on suspension with one organization was prevented from racing elsewhere. I am not certain whether this still holds true, but I think not.

All the action paperwork ends up in a repository in Topeka, and could -- theoretically -- be mined, but it is not organized in a data base or similar. Visualize the final scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Some years ago, I chaired a driver review. It took vast effort to comb through event reports, looking for actions involving the subject. We found a slew of actions, but nobody had ever connected the dots. We sat the driver down for a year. (I am told that he mended his ways after he returned.)

[mmi16]

A repository? Not really.

Disciplinary actions do get published in individual race results, but these are not compiled into a publicly available form. Actions that do not affect finishing order are frequently not published in race results. Actions that go to appeal are published in Fastrack.

At one time, I believe that SCCA, NASA, etc. shared suspension information, so that a driver on suspension with one organization was prevented from racing elsewhere. I am not certain whether this still holds true, but I think not.

All the action paperwork ends up in a repository in Topeka, and could -- theoretically -- be mined, but it is not organized in a data base or similar. Visualize the final scene of Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Some years ago, I chaired a driver review. It took vast effort to comb through event reports, looking for actions involving the subject. We found a slew of actions, but nobody had ever connected the dots. We sat the driver down for a year. (I am told that he mended his ways after he returned.)

In 2013 I was involved in a incident that gave me some points and a three race probation. When I call up my SCCA membership data it is on my data.

Have no idea if such actions are traceable for what ever OFFICIAL reason.

[aaronrobins]

Hey Alan, I know you’re upset about the incident, but this is not the right way to go about it. Everyone local knows who you’re talking about and although I appreciate you not naming names it’s quite obvious for anyone who knows you. As both an official, and someone who considers myself a friend of all the folks involved in this incident, including you, let me just clarify a few points from an neutral perspective: the driver in question was racing on an SCCA license because he has moved to the USA. He currently lives in the US and spends most of his time racing in the US this past year. There is no loophole, just the rules that we have set for this type of situation if you live in the US, you are welcome to race with us on an SCCA license.
second: the driver in question has never been sanctioned or even given a warning in SCCA, CACC, or SOVERN sanctioned events, which he has raced in for years. I know this as I have raced with him at every event he has been at in the past several years. Third: you protested this incident and it was reviewed thoroughly by the steward, executive steward, and race directors (I am one of them) and no fault was found. Even after reviewing available video footage it was determined that this was simply a no fault racing incident. You were on slicks and rounding that turn in the wet at much slower speed than the car on rain tires behind you. You were able to stop with minimal contact with the car the spun in front of you of you as you were exiting the turn at much lower speed than the FVs on rain tires behind you. Any FV driver on wets would have been on full throttle before the apex of that turn and would have been carrying much greater speed than you at the point of the incident.
If you still want to investigate the driver that hit you, just talk to me. I’ve been at every race he’s competed in over the past 4 years and can tell you he’s never been at fault or been sanctioned in that time.

Just my two cents as a driver and an official, and not an attack on you. Racing incidents really suck, for all involved, I get it. And I’ll do what I can to help you get back on track, whether that’s helping turn wrenches or lending you a car, let’s just get back to racing.

I'm in a weird situation where a Canadian driver managed to wangle himself an SCCA license to race at Mission despite a rule that Canadians must have a Canadian license to race in Canada.

And frankly, I think he got it because of some incidents he'd been sanctioned for when he held a CACC license.

So I'd like to investigate if there isn't a dangerous loophole in the rules for how drivers are licensed.

I know the CACC GCRs have a rule that explicitly permits the publication of disciplinary decisions but it doesn't require it, and I'm going to write a rules proposal that all disciplinary decisions get published, so that drivers can know exactly whom they are racing against.

Does the SCCA have a rule like this?

Is there a place where a driver can check the disciplinary decisions that have been imposed on other drivers?

The driver that brought this up for me:

• Hit me after he failed to react fast enough to a car in front of me spinning that I managed to get stopped for.
• Then on Sunday, forced my fellow FF driver off onto wet grass when he as being lapped (FV vs FF).
• I've been told had had sanctions at least a couple of times before and his CACC license suspend once.
• And to top it off, when I mentioned to another driver who was loading his FC back into his trailer about all of this, that FC driver said that he was driving FC to get away from this particular FV driver.

But all we get is word of mouth?

I honestly think we need to do better.

The aftermath:

[John Nesbitt]

In 2013 I was involved in a incident that gave me some points and a three race probation. When I call up my SCCA membership data it is on my data.

Have no idea if such actions are traceable for what ever OFFICIAL reason.

You are quite correct; license actions (probation, suspension) are recorded against a driver's record. As a steward, I receive a weekly email containing a list of active suspensions and probations.

However, actions not resulting in probation or suspension are printed on race results, and then pretty much disappear into an SCCA warehouse, never to be seen again. For example, if a driver engaged in blatant blocking, and then put another driver into the wall at high speed, but received only a position penalty (or even if the chief steward DQ'ed him), that would appear on the race results, and nowhere else.

So, assembling a driver's complete history is a very heavy lift, indeed.

[GregAmy]

You are quite correct; license actions (probation, suspension) are recorded against a driver's record...However, actions not resulting in probation or suspension are printed on race results, and then pretty much disappear into an SCCA warehouse, never to be seen again.

Hi, John! All CSA, inclduding 0-point ones for technical infractions*, are recorded in the driving history at my.scca.com. As a steward you can look up individual driver's histories by going into there, Region Resources, Member Lookup, and input a drivers' name and/or member number. In there, look for the "Action History/Discipline" section.

I don't know how long this has been input, and I hope these actions will remain there in perpetuity, but I am aware of at least one driver where I can see his comp license action going back to 2004.

Drivers can see their own data using the web site, login, then My Account, Profile.

So no, drivers cannot see other drivers' histories; I'm told the scarlett letters are on order for '25. But stewards can see that data and I reference that, in context, any time I'm involved in driver actions.

Greg

*My bounce from qually for non-compliant splitter at the '22 Runoffs is in there, 0 points.

[John Nesbitt]

Greg,

Quite so. Thanks for the update on process. This is, indeed, a step forward on tracking repeated behaviors.

[Arbitrary]

let’s just get back to racing.

I'd venture to say this attitude is why this post was made in the first place. Incidents aren't being handled appropriately and people are just being told to brush it off and "get back to racing" when more needs to be done.

[alangbaker]

Hey Alan, I know you’re upset about the incident, but this is not the right way to go about it. Everyone local knows who you’re talking about and although I appreciate you not naming names it’s quite obvious for anyone who knows you. As both an official, and someone who considers myself a friend of all the folks involved in this incident, including you, let me just clarify a few points from an neutral perspective: the driver in question was racing on an SCCA license because he has moved to the USA. He currently lives in the US and spends most of his time racing in the US this past year. There is no loophole, just the rules that we have set for this type of situation if you live in the US, you are welcome to race with us on an SCCA license.
second: the driver in question has never been sanctioned or even given a warning in SCCA, CACC, or SOVERN sanctioned events, which he has raced in for years. I know this as I have raced with him at every event he has been at in the past several years. Third: you protested this incident and it was reviewed thoroughly by the steward, executive steward, and race directors (I am one of them) and no fault was found. Even after reviewing available video footage it was determined that this was simply a no fault racing incident. You were on slicks and rounding that turn in the wet at much slower speed than the car on rain tires behind you. You were able to stop with minimal contact with the car the spun in front of you of you as you were exiting the turn at much lower speed than the FVs on rain tires behind you. Any FV driver on wets would have been on full throttle before the apex of that turn and would have been carrying much greater speed than you at the point of the incident.
If you still want to investigate the driver that hit you, just talk to me. I’ve been at every race he’s competed in over the past 4 years and can tell you he’s never been at fault or been sanctioned in that time.

Just my two cents as a driver and an official, and not an attack on you. Racing incidents really suck, for all involved, I get it. And I’ll do what I can to help you get back on track, whether that’s helping turn wrenches or lending you a car, let’s just get back to racing.

Aaron, I appreciate your perspective, but I question whether he TRULY lives in the US. And what's more, our rule says:

4.4.3
Canadians must hold a licence issued by CACC or an affiliated ASN territory. Canadians may only hold licenses issued by sporting authorities of other countries after receiving written authorization to do so from CACC.

And what's also peculiar is that—if you look up his results, you'll see that when he races in the US, he claims he lives in "Whistler, BC", but when he races with us, he claims he lives in "Point Roberts, WA".

First of all, if he was on wets, I'm sure he could accelerate better, but that means he could also have DECELERATE better. And his claims about the incident don't add up. He claims that his wheels were locked up when he hit me, but how does a non-rotating tire climb over my back tire?

And I'm sure there is nothing to the situation that he said he'd show me his video...

...and then told me his camera hadn't worked.

And none of the addresses his nonsense explanation of the incident he had with Dave McKay. He claimed that he was already at driver's left on the 3-4 straight and that Dave just CHOSE to try lapping him by driving onto wet grass. You can see how nonsensical that is, right.

Dave's saying he's never coming back to Mission after this.

Doug has told me he was sanctioned twice while licensed by CACC.

Keith says he had his license actually suspended once.

Peter says he left FV because of this person.

Tell me why I shouldn't be pissed off.

[alangbaker]

I'd venture to say this attitude is why this post was made in the first place. Incidents aren't being handled appropriately and people are just being told to brush it off and "get back to racing" when more needs to be done.

You have it exactly right.

[DanW]

The SCCA does publish a national "Probation and Suspension List" weekly. This list consists of:

Member ID

Last Name

First Name

Middle Name

Region

Division

Start Date

End Date

Action

GCR Section

Event Title

Event Date

Event Category

Type

Pro

So, the Registrar will compare the race entries with the published list.

Drivers on probation surrender their license and receive a yellow paper probationary license that they must present to the registrar and stewards. Suspended licenses are surrendered by the driver until the suspension term is satisfied. No, it's not a perfect system. It is dependent on the region supplying the driver probation/suspension information in a timely manner to the National Office.

[DaveW]

...First of all, if he was on wets, I'm sure he could accelerate better, but that means he could also have DECELERATE better. And his claims about the incident don't add up. He claims that his wheels were locked up when he hit me, but how does a non-rotating tire climb over my back tire?...

If yours was rotating that's likely to happen.

[alangbaker]

If yours was rotating that's likely to happen.

Mine wasn't. My car was at a standstill.

[DaveW]

Mine wasn't. My car was at a standstill.

Then that is strange.

[alangbaker]

Then that is strange.

My opinion is that the individual in question drives with his head down, and didn't see me until the last moment.

But I'll let you judge for yourself:

[scott fairchild]

My opinion is that the individual in question drives with his head down, and didn't see me until the last moment.

But I'll let you judge for yourself:

maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like your LF also contacted the spinning car. Something about glass houses and stones comes to mind. YMMV.

[DaveW]

My opinion is that the individual in question drives with his head down, and didn't see me until the last moment.

But I'll let you judge for yourself:

I couldn't tell much from this except that the time from your 1st impact to the Vee hitting you was ~1 second. That, IMO, is not conclusive in any way regarding what the Vee driver was or wasn't doing.

Sometimes s**t just happens.

[alangbaker]

I couldn't tell much from this except that the time from your 1st impact to the Vee hitting you was ~1 second. That, IMO, is not conclusive in any way regarding what the Vee driver was or wasn't doing.

Sometimes s**t just happens.

The time shows there is no way he couldn't have seen the car spinning in front of me.

And I have too many drivers who report that he's hit them from behind.

[alangbaker]

maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like your LF also contacted the spinning car. Something about glass houses and stones comes to mind. YMMV.

Contacted at MAYBE walking pace.

When a car you're following that close spins on a damp track, what else COULD happen?

The point is that I reacted to what was happening enough that there was no damage caused by our contact.

[DaveW]

The time shows there is no way he couldn't have seen the car spinning in front of me.

And I have too many drivers who report that he's hit them from behind.

Not arguing about what happened - I just said the video doesn't show much about his hitting you.

[Arbitrary]

Upon seeing the footage, I don't know if I can say that was anything more than a racing incident.

Could he have avoided you? Probably. Would that have put him into a wall instead? Probably.

It appears it was a lose-lose situation. As a FV racer myself, I'm avoiding a wall at all costs as there is literally nothing but a little fiberglass and pedals between my feet/legs and a wall. My car's corner hitting another car's corner would be much preferred - anything to keep my body from taking the hit.

[mmi16]

My opinion is that the individual in question drives with his head down, and didn't see me until the last moment.

But I'll let you judge for yourself:

Both of you were driving head down, as you say.

You had the opportunity to put the yellow car behind you in the first turn and didn't take it. The yellow car caused his own spin by getting too hard on the throttle exiting that turn and both you and the car that impacted you were too close to each other and the incident is the result. Racing incident on a damp track.

[alangbaker]

Both of you were driving head down, as you say.

You had the opportunity to put the yellow car behind you in the first turn and didn't take it. The yellow car caused his own spin by getting too hard on the throttle exiting that turn and both you and the car that impacted you were too close to each other and the incident is the result. Racing incident on a damp track.

No. Both of us were NOT head down.

Given that you can't see from my camera exactly where the yellow car was in turn 1, I find your claim that I could have taken him there fairly bold.

And the difference between my contact with the car and the Vee's contact with me, is that I saw the spin develop and was immediately out of the throttle and on the brakes. The FV clearly was not.

Because with the same time and space as I had, AND with rain tires, he should have been able to slow as much as I did.

But ask yourself the more important question about assessing whether or not this was a "racing incident":

If you knew the FV driver had a long history of hitting other drivers from behind with multiple sanctions on his license, would it change your opinion?

[alangbaker]

Upon seeing the footage, I don't know if I can say that was anything more than a racing incident.

Could he have avoided you? Probably. Would that have put him into a wall instead? Probably.

It appears it was a lose-lose situation. As a FV racer myself, I'm avoiding a wall at all costs as there is literally nothing but a little fiberglass and pedals between my feet/legs and a wall. My car's corner hitting another car's corner would be much preferred - anything to keep my body from taking the hit.

How about if he just had gotten on the brakes earlier when he saw a car spinning?

He claims he locked up his wheels, but how does a locked wheel climb my essentially stationary rear wheel?

But the point of this is not the incident as much as it is having a public record that we can use to determine how many times a driver has been involved in incidents and how many times he/she has been penalized for bad driving?

My concern here is not so much my incident; I was willing to put that behind me.

But then he put a good friend of mine in the wall and his explanation of how it happened is nonsense.

And then in talking to other drivers, I discovered without even really trying a lot of people who've been hit from behind by this guy.

And at that point, I started to think about how we are just trusting blindly that our officials are doing what is necessary to ensure bad drivers aren't out there with us.

[DaveW]

Alan,

I agree completely that incidents like this need to be logged and saved so that dangerous drivers are penalized/suspended, etc., so that they are hopefully deterred form causing this sort of incident.

As previously posted, this has been the procedure for as long as I remember. However, obviously, communication of these incidents between sanctioning bodies must exist to enforce suspensions and penalties.

I have a feeling that a lot of this stuff goes in a file and is subsequently buried.

Maybe someone that sees this may be able to improve communication.

[E1pix]

It’s easy to think that being further away from the impact (the third car) allows more time to respond, as it does when everyone’s in a straight line. But when focused on braking, turn-in, the lot, focus is elsewhere and worse as a corner is tighter.

This strikes me as a common example of what I call “tunnel vision,” in karting anyway, and most often seen in drivers further beyond their limits than others might be.

Perhaps above references to “head down” are the same thing… though in that moment of error, some might look at it as having a “head up…” ;-)

We all know that if comfortable at our limits, everything slows down… not the other way around.

No judgment on the incident itself without another camera view, but when known to be a repetitive habit in any driver, I don’t blame the OP at all for his frustrations here — and it should be seriously looked at by those who can actually do something about it.