Sir:
The FT200. In doing so, you provide unlimited mounting applications.
Originally Posted by rcollieking3
Sir:
The FT200. In doing so, you provide unlimited mounting applications.
Last edited by Rick Iverson; 09.10.24 at 6:37 PM.
V/r
Iverson
And provide a more appealing price to the consumer. Lest we forget, this is not a growth industry.
V/r
Iverson
Collie, I have just finished 'upgrading' my FT200 locally here in my garage. All went well, BUT.. I found that I seemed to DOWNGRADE my version of firmware.. from some 0.7.12.x to some 0.7.1.8 (the SCCA version). I think it would be somewhat helpful if more information was included in the (windows) APP to display what the CURRENT as well as PREVIOUS versions are for each 'sanctioning body' so it would be more CLEAR what we are doing when we 'update' our units. Apparently, the version numbers are DIFFERENT for each sanctioning body. SO.. when I (only a couple weeks ago) updated my FT200 (this was before your separation of sanctioning bodies) the APP loaded in a version that seemed to be 'newer' than the SCCA version that I just uploaded.
I'm sure that there are 'some number' of racers out there that run under more than 1 sanctioning body and it would help to make it more clear what the various versions for the various 'bodies' MEAN. It should also be ON THE WEBSITE, but also in the APP, so we don't have to stop any upgrade process to go check the website to be SURE we are loading the CORRECT version of firmware to our units.
Food for thought :-).
Steve, FV80 -- should see you at Elkhart!
Steve, FV80
Racing since '73 - FV since '77
Forgot to mention to include the RELEASE DATE for each version. The version numbers are in no way representative of WHEN they were released.
Steve
Steve, FV80
Racing since '73 - FV since '77
Lots of the people who could answer this are probably busy in Wisconsin and maybe the answer is in the Runoffs Supps, but what does a Flagtronic unit display if it has an error? Are you required to stop racing and report to your pit if your unit has an error? If it faults and race control can’t see you, will you be black-flagged?
If I had to quit every time my AIM or GoPro had an error I’d have quit long ago.
Other question: other than transitioning to a subscription model, either for each user or hidden by being charged to the sanctioning body or track, how will on-going support and updates be paid for? Isn’t it almost certain that it has to go subscription?
1) The SCCA flag system has the highest priority/command level. If the FT does not agree with the flags, you follow the flags. If the FT system is down, you follow the flags.
2) Updates: Why should there be updates if the system is stable? Is the MyLaps system ever updated? Certainly not the car transponders.
Brian
Really? A system with 2 way comms, GPS, etc. and you are comparing it to a beacon? I'm sure MyLaps had updates over time.
I would say per participant - like motorsportreg - would be fair.
2024 Runoffs
Just watched the Tue FV Runoff Qual with the active track map was displayed. Must be similar to what the FT system displays. On the first lap a car went of at Canada corner. You could see how cars going through the corner were under yellow and then a short time later when the track went Code 45. The car off at the corner had its number displayed and showed no motion on the track map progressions.
Everything just as advertised.
Brian
Use of Code 45 during races
I noticed that the safety car is being used instead of the Code 45 during the Runoff races. If we acknowledge that the Runoffs is the first use of Code 45 and not wanting to upset any race outcomes, what is the future of Code 45 during ordinary races?
Is there an underlying preference to bunch fields with the safety car, NASCAR style competition?
Could there be overwhelming issues policing the Code 45 application during races?
Brian
With this being the first year,they didn't want to disrupt what drivers were most used to while they fought for National Championships - as the club and driver's get more experience with it, I suspect there can and will be evaluation and consideration of whether to stick with that or change it.
Jon K - 1986 Swift DB3/Honda
Full implementation of FT with VSC should commence with the 2025 HST series. There were a few hiccups with the system in the formula and Prototype cars on the first day of testing but those were quickly resolved and my experience with the system was positive.
Thanks for the update John. I take it that the initial use of FT will be with the Hoosier Super tour, Right??
That is my understanding. Runoffs and HST in 2025. Implementation at Major's will likely depend upon the track (or Region) and their acquisition of the FT equipment.
I guess you didn't read the supps, did you?
At the Runoffs, the most restrictive condition (flag or FT) took priority.
Is there any consensus on the operation of Flagtronics at thr Runoffs?
Also, anyone care to share how and where they mounted the system? Photos?
Did anyone find it interfered with ability to focus on lights already in steering wheel? Would it be better to mount off center a bit to 'separate focus' of Flagtronic and Shift/Alarm lights?
I have mine just above my wheel-mounted dash display.
My thoughts on Flagtronics at the Runoffs... it's a great system, with great potential if used correctly.
But SCCA screwed up a number of those details, severely hampering operations.
This wishy-washy prioritization of flag or FT200 or both is a prime example. Now I have to be aware of both conditions before I can react. That's stupid - and a method that was never used all year. I think the physical flags at the corners should have priority, at all times - as was done all year. The FT should only be a heads-up notification to the driver.
Now my reaction times to all substantial flag conditions are delayed.
I also hated (non-FT-content) the acceleration zone rule. We don't do that at any other event, they're playing pro racing games, and it's stupid.
I'm immensely glad they didn't use the VSC in the races. Too easy to game, and taken to the extreme (which it will be) it can further exacerbate the issue of running too hard/fast in FCY conditions. Which SCCA still isn't addressing, as a root cause.
Note that I did encounter a VSC in testing, so did get experience with that too. Messy, as expected.
If it is continued at all, it should be kept away from races, and used only for practice and quali sessions IMO.
Instead, I think SCCA needs to start using the Flagtronics data to evenly and consistently enforce FCY driving standards - rather than the sporadic penalties they hand down only after incidents that they do now. Something like a 2s penalty to every driver found overdriving the FCY (not slowing down adequately or worse). We have the technology. They said they'd use it. Make it happen.
To do any less proves you're only giving lip service to the concept of safety, rather than using the tools you already have in place to correct behaviour.
See post #89 for possible mounting of the standard unit in a Van Diemen. It works very well mounted off center.
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In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
Just for some lighthearted news, our Flagtronics registered us as having crashed when merely riding exit curbing :-)
Ian Macpherson
Savannah, GA
Race prep, support, and engineering.
needs a little fine tuning. Or...stay off the curbs?
In seriousness, that sensitivity can be tuned by Flagtronics. I've never had an issue with mine.
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In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
I had no issues when pounding the curbing or even running 2-off the track.
Perhaps you didn't update firmware?
There is going to be some driver race craft development based around the VSC deployment.
The whole point of the VSC is to save race track time. Not using it during races would be would be a disappointment. I wonder if there needs to be a compromise with VSC deployment and race management (fairness to race leaders, etc.). What is more important to the majority of competitors?
Brian
Yeah, and that's the problem; if there's any negative impact on fairness, why would we accept that?
How are you planning to best use that 10s window for compliance?
Unfortunately, and I'll state this again to emphasize, this added and conflicting input now creates uncertainty behind the wheel when we get down into hard competitive situations - as we faced at the Runoffs. I'm speaking here not only of VSC but the FT display in general - because it cannot be perfectly aligned with the flag displays.
This uncertainty and inevitably imperfect coordination of physical flags vs. digital warnings creates problems for everything from fairness to safety.
Because it's only as good as the person pushing the buttons.
As much as I want this to work and be a part of our future, after spending more time being exposed to weaknesses of its implementation into our world, I have to admit I'm sliding into the camp of "not ready for prime-time" - not because the system isn't good, but because of the implementation into SCCA Club Racing.
That is the responsibility of... oh, hey, same culprit as everything else, the National office!!!
I agree with Vaughan, because when you are competing closely ANY extra time spent taking your eyes off the road ahead or the mirrors, etc., (i.e., distracted driving) increases the probability of having an incident. One has to be able to assess the situation with 1 glance, either at the FT or at the flags. Doing both and then having to decide which to obey is, IMO, a dangerous distraction.
Dave Weitzenhof
BLS, Jim Edmonds, kea, mmi16, Steve Demeter, tgaluardi, TimH
...
Unfortunately, and I'll state this again to emphasize, this added and conflicting input now creates uncertainty behind the wheel when we get down into hard competitive situations - as we faced at the Runoffs. I'm speaking here not only of VSC but the FT display in general - because it cannot be perfectly aligned with the flag displays.
This uncertainty and inevitably imperfect coordination of physical flags vs. digital warnings creates problems for everything from fairness to safety.
Because it's only as good as the person pushing the buttons.
As much as I want this to work and be a part of our future, after spending more time being exposed to weaknesses of its implementation into our world, I have to admit I'm sliding into the camp of "not ready for prime-time" - not because the system isn't good, but because of the implementation into SCCA Club Racing.
That is the responsibility of... oh, hey, same culprit as everything else, the National office!!!
Your concerns about distraction when observing and then deciding flag station vs. Flagtronics are very well-founded. There is the same potential for distraction if the rule is, “In the event of conflict between the local flag and FT, give precedence to x.” You still have to see them both and assign mental bandwidth to applying a sorting rule.
This is one of the reasons why the current architecture looks to me like only the first iteration in some longer process, eventually ending up with just one ‘flagging’ system. (This also links back to the decline in flagger numbers and the encroachment on ‘traditional’ EV and F&C roles by tracks.)
If what we see is version 1.0, then version 1.5 might entail assigning flag control to corner stations, but having Flagtronics take control during FCY periods. Which would imply the VSC.
I would not be surprised if version 4.0 or so, some years down the road, was a pure-play Flagtronics architecture, with SCCA flaggers going the way of SCCA EV. Obviously, the implementation challenges are steep, but flagger demographics, track restrictions, and insurance mandates may make it inevitable.
John Nesbitt
ex-Swift DB-1
In my experience...when using the FT in conjunction with flags I always followed the flags first as the FT sometimes went yellow either a little ahead or behind the flag station, usually ahead of it.
When using the FT in conjunction with panels, they always showed at the same time (as one would expect). When there were both flags and panels, I followed the flags first, but never really saw a variance between the flag and panel.
I never saw the VSC function used, however the FT alerted me to pit lane speed with a flashing "SLO" until i went under the pre-determined speed. The VSC would operate the same way, and race control can see everyone's speed and position around the track.
Let me repeat earlier posts about this- It took me about one lap to adapt to the FT (and panels). It has never been a distraction, only an aid, especially in FCY situations.
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In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
flagtronics guy was under our tent several times over the week.
there was also a report of a Miata that "crashed" while slamming the trunk lid under his canopy :-)
Ian Macpherson
Savannah, GA
Race prep, support, and engineering.
"There is going to be some driver race craft development based around the VSC deployment."
The person who loves the VSC is the driver with the 20 second lead!
Everyone else wants that pace car so they can catch up.
I have seen qualifying laps by the cars behind and heaven help if you are a lapped car who gets between the leader and and 2nd place.
Now F1 has decided that the VSC is for issues less than a few laps and FCY for major issues.
IndyCar and Nascar seem to go immediately to FCY.
The rule before the Runoffs was that the flags take precedence. If that was changed in the supps, I consider that a mistake as the Runoffs should have fully staffed corners. Most regionals - not so much.
ChrisZ
It was indeed, agree with all of the above. Nothing like changing the operating rules between events!!! Another ****e call by National.
Same story with the "acceleration zone" BS... Special rules.
Oh, and did you notice FA and GT1 get a different sound limit? The games being played by National just are without end...
For what its worth, I slammed the wall along the backstretch at over 120mph during the race and the FT never registered it as a crash... lol
That said, I was annoyed with the FT after our first test session due to the abundance of white, yellow, and green flags, but I got used to it throughout the weekend and by the end I thought it was a great aid. I had no troubles identifying when there were yellow zones, or slow moving vehicles, it typically helped alert me to look at the flaggers more closely, or watch out for something ahead. We used the VSC function during a qualifying session and it was straight forward to follow. My only suggestion would be to have some way of signifying it is ending. We noticed that the corner stands would display blue flags for 10sec prior to it ending, but nothing on the FT would indicate that.
I hear the complaints about following the more restrictive flag, but I don't think its that hard to follow. If you see yellow anywhere, you still can't pass and should slow down. If one is red, then you have to stop anyway. Pretty straight forward, and I don't think its adding too much to the driver to focus on which you wouldn't already need to follow. As for VSC usage, it makes perfect sense in all of the practice/qual sessions. I'm not sure of the clubs intent to use it in races, but I agree there would be ways to try and gain an advantage, so it would have to be carefully looked at. Currently only F1 and WEC use VSC modes in races that I know of, so I'm doubtful we would ever see that exclusively. I could see use using VSC to get safety vehicles out and then culminating in a bunched up FCY condition. I'd say we stop get worked up speculating the what-ifs and just wait till it eventually plays out, because there's no mention of it being the rule or intent to use VSC in races so far.
All of that said, I work full-time as an engineer for a professional racing team with cars in IMSA and USAC sanctioned series. Both series mandate the use of a yellow light system, and of the 3 different systems I have seen, the Flagtronics is hand over fist above the rest, by a large margin.
-For reference, the IMSA yellow light systems are the "stupidest" of the 3 systems I've encountered. They are simply a display light, a receiver antenna, and a powered encoder box. It only displays yellow, or nothing on the display. It is only used in FCY conditions, and has no way of tracking vehicles. It also costs almost $2k for this simple and "stupid" passive system, FT for the win on price alone.
-In the USAC series we are required to use a MyLaps based yellow light system. This is a bit more advanced system which incorporates a GPS receiver into the system, similar to FT. This system only shows red, yellow, and green flag conditions, but doesn't display for local incidents, only Full Course conditions. There are 3 versions of this system with a large receiver box, and an auxiliary light bar display, which range in price from $800-2500. These have been the most finnicky systems I have ever dealt with, with factory wiring issues, signal issues, and the series requiring a lot of information about which specific unit and display you have, because it requires the series to send your car a specific and varying signal. These work a fraction of the time, cost significantly more than FT, are larger and bulkier, lacks local functionality, and is run by a larger sanctioning body. If a series can't figure out the proper signals to send the same 30some cars each race, how would this work with 200-500 completely different vehicles every weekend?? FT again coming out ahead for me.
All in all, for the price, the FT brings a lot of features to the table, and I thought it does so exceedingly well when compared to these "pro" systems. After using it for the first time at the runoffs, I fully support the system, and will go on to recommend it to the powers at be for all of the pro series I work in. In the end, its there to aid and help keep us safer as drivers, and I see it doing exactly that.
Theodore Burns
Kellymoss Inc
2011 Piper DF05 - Honda
Great synopsis of the FT, especially vs other systems.
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In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
Agreed, really nice to hear some comparative experience with the "pro" level systems.
I do agree with the "ending" condition of the VSC to want some work. In our case, it seemed almost a minute, not 10s, of waving blue flags before we got cut loose.
the system has the ability to show 'green' to everyone as the VSC ends- it is up to the operator in race control to hit the right button at the right time.
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In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
FT-RD Installation
Finished installing mine today. Other than the wiring routing, it was not difficult. However with having to fit a LOT of extra wire into cramped areas, by the time I got done screwing around with that, the overall install took about 12 hours.
The display was easy to fit on the dash panel where I could easily see it centered above the steering wheel data display unit. I put the GPS antenna next to the CDS one which is just ahead of the cockpit opening (above and behind the steering wheel). The RF antenna is mounted just ahead of my radio antenna in its aluminum ground plane.
Dave Weitzenhof
So where's the information on the details of how this is supposed to work from a race operations standpoint? I don't see anything on the site other than install guides and a short video.
That is basically my plan as well. Note to self -> revise time estimate to 4 days
Do you power it on with your data system?
It powers on with my cutoff switch which powers on everything including the ignition switch. If the cutoff is on, the FT is on.That is basically my plan as well. Note to self -> revise time estimate to 4 days
Do you power it on with your data system?
Dave Weitzenhof
I have a separate on/off switch for my data system.. in case something 'happens to the data during a race',,, but data is OPTIONAL. Ignition *AND* FT are NOT optional... so my FT comes on with the ignition switch.
Steve, FV80
Steve, FV80
Racing since '73 - FV since '77
I believe my transponder come on with the cutoff. I think I'll power it there.
I have an ignition switch that powers everything else - ECU and Data. I do want to separate Ignition (ECU) and Data so I don't have to power on the ECU when I want to pull data and conversely don't have to power cycle the Data when I want to power cycle the ECU for the startup sequence if needed.
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