Treaded to Slicks

[reisertracing]

Being new to CF, what adjustments do I need to make to the car to go from Vintage treaded tires to slicks?

Thanks

[Lotus7]

Assuming you are switching to scca legal slicks, which are radials, as a minimum you'll want lots more camber, like 3-3.5 degrees vs 0.5 degrees, and you'll also want to check ride height due to diameter differences. Radials want slightly higher hot pressure.
Secondary changes once you've driven it may be spring and bar rates.

[DanW]

Being new to CF, what adjustments do I need to make to the car to go from Vintage treaded tires to slicks?

Thanks

What tires do your local groups require? Most spec Hoosier R60 or American Racer (Mcreary) bias ply.

[AlanVDW]

NEDIV CF Rules are: "Tire choice is restricted to three (3) racing slick options: Goodyear 600, Hoosier 60, American Racer AR133." I got the Hoosier VFF added to that list.
I believe all are bias ply.
I went from slicks to the treaded Hoosier VFF (due to cost), which are now legal for CFF in the northeast.

If you run on the SCCA spec radial, your in FF.

All I really did was take out the camber to run the treaded VFF tire. Just add camber and you should be OK to run slicks.

[Jake King]

NEDIV CF Rules are: "Tire choice is restricted to three (3) racing slick options: Goodyear 600,Hoosier 60, American Racer AR133."
I believe all are bias ply.
I went from slicks to the treaded Hoosier VFF (due to cost), which are legal for CFF in the northeast. If you run on the SCCA spec radial, your in FF.

All I did was take out the camber to run the tread VFF tire. Just add camber and you should be OK to run slicks.

There are also some differences in tire diameter. I believe the front treaded tires are ~7/8" taller and the difference in the rears are marginal. May need to adjust your front ride height to match the rake you run with the treaded tires.

[AlanVDW]

Yup. Jake's correct. The front treaded tires are about 3" larger, and the rears are about 1.5" larger, in circumference. I thought my Lime Rock gearing seemed a bit tall, although I was really slow anyway after 12 yrs off. So, my car may be taller, but I will still need to check the rake. I only changed camber to 1/4 degree negative, readjusted the toe, and increased the tire pressure to run the treaded tires.

[Roux]

Being new to CF, what adjustments do I need to make to the car to go from Vintage treaded tires to slicks?

Thanks

If you are going to the classic CF bias ply tires, not huge changes. People like Jake King, the Kinghams, Dave Harmison, ... all can help you.

treads to radials is a huge engineering transition, unless you are ok with just having fun and the car not being dialed all the way in


Radials = FF = Finicky
Bias = CF = Fun
VFF treads = Super Fun! and should be allowed in any event where the car is elligble. (My opinion)

Steve

[scott fairchild]

Like anything else in racing, it depends on the application. Having had a few cars go from slicks to treads, there were some where we experienced undesirable roll center migration. Once we were able to pinpoint the problem, we could adjust for it. Most cars get away with it just fine with minimal adjustments to things like ride height and camber. It would stand to reason that going from treads back to slicks could present the same challenges with certain chassis.

Good luck with your conversion,
Scott

[Larry H]

NEDIV CF Rules are: "Tire choice is restricted to three (3) racing slick options: Goodyear 600, Hoosier 60, American Racer AR133."
I believe all are bias ply.
I went from slicks to the treaded Hoosier VFF (due to cost), which are now legal for CFF in the northeast. If you run on the SCCA spec radial, your in FF.

All I did was take out the camber to run the treaded VFF tire. Just add camber and you should be OK to run slicks.

Its not that easy for all cars. Some cars require new suspension arms other use extended rod ends at $110 each x 4.

[Roland V. Johnson]

If you are running Hoosier Vintage Treads the set up changes are minimal from Bias Slicks. If we all ran the Hoosier Vintage tires I firmly believe entries would increase. We have run up front across the country with Hoosier Vintage tires that had many heat cycles on them at events where treaded tires were required. The Avon tires which have been discontinued (at least for the time being) were a better tire, but were more expensive. Keeping the price down to be competitive will bring more entries which is what I thought Formula Ford was always about. You also do not have to buy rain tires. We tried to run on Toyo's but could never get them to work well enough for us to be happy on them. We race 3 classes of Vintage Fords (including Swifts) but we race hard with legal engines. I could care less what the SCCA decides to do. They lost relevance and our membership with the Honda Debacle. That is my two cents!

[Garey Guzman]

If you are running Hoosier Vintage Treads the set up changes are minimal from Bias Slicks. If we all ran the Hoosier Vintage tires I firmly believe entries would increase. We have run up front across the country with Hoosier Vintage tires that had many heat cycles on them at events where treaded tires were required. The Avon tires which have been discontinued (at least for the time being) were a better tire, but were more expensive. Keeping the price down to be competitive will bring more entries which is what I thought Formula Ford was always about. You also do not have to buy rain tires. We tried to run on Toyo's but could never get them to work well enough for us to be happy on them. We race 3 classes of Vintage Fords (including Swifts) but we race hard with legal engines. I could care less what the SCCA decides to do. They lost relevance and our membership with the Honda Debacle. That is my two cents!

You're singing my song about the VFF tire - it's so much more fun than the radial slick, at least to me. The ultimate grip isn't such a huge difference and being able to controllably slide on the VFF is so much more fun!

I'm still a fan of SCCA for many reasons, including more races near me and lower entry fees than most Vintage events so I'm hoping to continue to help grow FF within SCCA. I think CF changing to VFF tires would be a great step! There could also be a unification of CF rules!

Hmmmmm........

[Jake King]

You're singing my song about the VFF tire - it's so much more fun than the radial slick, at least to me. The ultimate grip isn't such a huge difference and being able to controllably slide on the VFF is so much more fun!

I'm still a fan of SCCA for many reasons, including more races near me and lower entry fees than most Vintage events so I'm hoping to continue to help grow FF within SCCA. I think CF changing to VFF tires would be a great step! There could also be a unification of CF rules!

Hmmmmm........

Agreed on the fun-factor Garey. Now that all SCCA East coast divisions will be on the same page with allowing VFF tires in 2025, we might be able to get more people to come out. VFF has many upsides from my observations driving them this year i.e. slightly better on the budget, last long, make a great "all-weather" tire, fun-factor, easier on the suspension, etc. etc.

But, the bias ply slicks also have that fun-factor based on pure cornering speed and lap times. I wouldn't mind if all CF/FF regional cars ran the VFF's. After all, majority of our vintage Fords were originally built to race on old, slippery Dunlops. Definitely something for SCCA to consider.

[Roland V. Johnson]

The Hoosier Vintage tires are bias tires. (not radials)

[Larry H]

I now concur, that the VFF tire is the best compromise for a universal USA FF tire. It seems logical that this would naturally increase attendance numbers because:

1) Lowers operating costs:
a) Lower initial costs and longer life.
b) Same tire for rain tires
c) More takes-off would be available for those looking to minimize racing budget
2) Simplifies racing series cross over:
a) Same setup and tires to run SCCA, VARA, SVRA, FFTS. etc.
i) More unified set up advice from the community.
b) Don't need to learn how to drive a different tire in one day.
c) Lowers cost to try a new series as last weekends tires and setup can be used. You just need gas and go!
i) A common tire should increase SCCA regional and Super Tour FF entries by simplifying access to SCCA races.
3) Makes older FF more competitive: Reduces slick tire chassis performance advantage of the modern FF with respect to older FF, which should bring more cars out of the garages.
4) Supports a racing specific tire manufacturer (Hoosier): Their main focus is making racing tires. Might even lower price due to higher production of same product.
5) Decent performance and very good feel: Easier to drive and better racing experience.
5) Improves performance of FF compared to Toyo tires: Safer in a mixed class group.

Personally, I'm a fan of the Toyos and I've been running them exclusively for 2 year with no issues but would change to a universal tire. Yes, they are slower but they are durable and cheap but many FF racers hate them because of the lack of feel. The other big downside is I won't run SCCA, SVRA or VARA because of the tire and setup change.

Larry

[stonebridge20]

I now concur, that the VFF tire is the best compromise for a universal USA FF tire. It seems logical that this would naturally increase attendance numbers because:

1) Lowers operating costs:
a) Lower initial costs and longer life.
b) Same tire for rain tires
c) More takes-off would be available for those looking to minimize racing budget
2) Simplifies racing series cross over:
a) Same setup and tires to run SCCA, VARA, SVRA, FFTS. etc.
i) More unified set up advice from the community.
b) Don't need to learn how to drive a different tire in one day.
c) Lowers cost to try a new series as last weekends tires and setup can be used. You just need gas and go!
i) A common tire should increase SCCA regional and Super Tour FF entries by simplifying access to SCCA races.
3) Makes older FF more competitive: Reduces slick tire chassis performance advantage of the modern FF with respect to older FF, which should bring more cars out of the garages.
4) Supports a racing specific tire manufacturer (Hoosier): Their main focus is making racing tires. Might even lower price due to higher production of same product.
5) Decent performance and very good feel: Easier to drive and better racing experience.
5) Improves performance of FF compared to Toyo tires: Safer in a mixed class group.

Personally, I'm a fan of the Toyos and I've been running them exclusively for 2 year with no issues but would change to a universal tire. Yes, they are slower but they are durable and cheap but many FF racers hate them because of the lack of feel. The other big downside is I won't run SCCA, SVRA or VARA because of the tire and setup change.

Larry

The entire world uses treaded tires on FF's except SCCA and FRP

[Larry H]

The entire world uses treaded tires on FF's except SCCA and FRP

Well not entirely true but mostly true. Formula Ford the Series, a west coast FF series uses bias ply Hoosier slicks. So it's SCCA, FRP and FFTS not on VFF. Hmmm.

[Jonathan Lee]

I now concur, that the VFF tire is the best compromise for a universal USA FF tire. It seems logical that this would naturally increase attendance numbers because:

1) Lowers operating costs:
a) Lower initial costs and longer life.
b) Same tire for rain tires
c) More takes-off would be available for those looking to minimize racing budget
2) Simplifies racing series cross over:
a) Same setup and tires to run SCCA, VARA, SVRA, FFTS. etc.
i) More unified set up advice from the community.
b) Don't need to learn how to drive a different tire in one day.
c) Lowers cost to try a new series as last weekends tires and setup can be used. You just need gas and go!
i) A common tire should increase SCCA regional and Super Tour FF entries by simplifying access to SCCA races.
3) Makes older FF more competitive: Reduces slick tire chassis performance advantage of the modern FF with respect to older FF, which should bring more cars out of the garages.
4) Supports a racing specific tire manufacturer (Hoosier): Their main focus is making racing tires. Might even lower price due to higher production of same product.
5) Decent performance and very good feel: Easier to drive and better racing experience.
5) Improves performance of FF compared to Toyo tires: Safer in a mixed class group.

Personally, I'm a fan of the Toyos and I've been running them exclusively for 2 year with no issues but would change to a universal tire. Yes, they are slower but they are durable and cheap but many FF racers hate them because of the lack of feel. The other big downside is I won't run SCCA, SVRA or VARA because of the tire and setup change.

Larry

How much faster is the VFF than the toyo's?

Hypothetically if we were all on the same VFF tire, I think vintage and club ford people would still be racing vintage and club ford. The more modern cars are still better and the older cars will be at a disadvantage.

I do not think vintage and club ford should mix with modern era FF, they are two different worlds. Many of you guys enjoy your vintage racing, and many other people enjoy modern FF racing. It doesn't make sense to try and combine the two, everyone is already happy with where they are.

Modern FF people will be complaining about the VFF tire, and vintage FF people will complain about losing to modern FF cars...

[stonebridge20]

How much faster is the VFF than the toyo's?

Hypothetically if we were all on the same VFF tire, I think vintage and club ford people would still be racing vintage and club ford. The more modern cars are still better and the older cars will be at a disadvantage.

I do not think vintage and club ford should mix with modern era FF, they are two different worlds. Many of you guys enjoy your vintage racing, and many other people enjoy modern FF racing. It doesn't make sense to try and combine the two, everyone is already happy with where they are.

Modern FF people will be complaining about the VFF tire, and vintage FF people will complain about losing to modern FF cars...

Then keep riding the SCCA FF sinking ship to the bottom of the ocean Jonathan.

[SteveG]

...
Modern FF people will be complaining about the VFF tire, and vintage FF people will complain about losing to modern FF cars...

I agree with the first part, modern FF people will complain about the VFF tire. See the spec tire debate and subsequent results.
Anyone running a vintage FF that shows up at a SCCA major and expects to run up front is either a really good shoe or really, really delusional.

Steve

[Jonathan Lee]

Then keep riding the SCCA FF sinking ship to the bottom of the ocean Jonathan.

???

I know many of the vintage guys are against running with the SCCA and prefer other vintage clubs like SVRA.

So how would forcing modern FF to use vintage tires help anything? If the SCCA and FRP said tommorow - no more radials, instead we are running VFF tires, how would that help the entries within the SCCA and FRP?

People with vintage cars want to race against other vintage cars. Why would someone in a 50 year old car want to race against kids in modern equipment?

The Vintage crowd and the SCCA/FRP crowd are completely different. Mixing the two would be like serving Tyson Chicken Nuggets at a Fancy Restaurant, it just doesn't make sense. Both are tasty, but each have their own time and place..

It just doesn't make sense that a tire change to VFF would help car count at the Majors and FRP.

[teamwisconsin]

I’d come back to SCCA FF in a heartbeat if they went to treaded tires like the Avon or the VFF. I’ve got a car in the garage waiting if it ever were to happen. And I’d say that I’m likely not the only one. It would be a game changer for the clients in my shop too, I can promise that.

[Jonathan Lee]

I’d come back to SCCA FF in a heartbeat if they went to treaded tires like the Avon or the VFF. I’ve got a car in the garage waiting if it ever were to happen. And I’d say that I’m likely not the only one. It would be a game changer for the clients in my shop too, I can promise that.

I have not read all of Apexspeed, and other people might be in a different boat, but I've seen many vintage people bash the SCCA and claim that their vintage club is superior, and many similar type of comments.

Do you and your clients prefer the SCCA as a club over the other organizations you run with?
Would your clients want to run in the majors with a Vintage Car, even though they will be off the pace?
When we had open tire rules, I don't remember Club Fords showing up to nationals.


Do you know differences in lap times between VFF, Toyo, Avons ACB10, R60?

If treaded tires could increase car count in the SCCA by a noticeable margin, I would be all for it.
I still think that the majority of vintage owners would continue to run in their vintage clubs, but that is just me..

[stonebridge20]

If treaded tires could increase car count in the SCCA by a noticeable margin, I would be all for it.
..

Well, when you have 3 "modern" FF's or less show up for a SCCA Major and a couple or more vintage FF guys show up because they're local and they need to change absolutely nothing on their cars, you've got your "noticeable margin"

Not everyone needs to win the race to have fun.

[Larry H]

UK FF Uses Similar to VFF Tire: As I understand, the Avon ACB9/10 tire are used for most or all FF racing in the UK and it is treaded bias ply construction. All of the modern FF cars come from England and therefore should be set up and designed for the Avon ACB9/10 tire, which seems closer to a VFF tire than a radial slick. So I don't understand the logic that drives the need for modern FF to use slicks here in the United States.

No Open Tire Rule: I don't think anyone is advocating running VFF against slicks but to have everyone on same tire.

Club/Vintage FF Performance: There are some very fast Club/Vintage FF on VFF tires that beat-out modern FFs (also on VFF) regularly. Of course, it is track dependent.

Just Need a Marginal Increase in Attendance: We just need to have a couple more cars to show in FF at the Majors. If SCCA were running VFF exclusively, I would surmise there would at least a couple local FF racers that would show up. I can also guarantee, that no locals would show up, if they had to switch to slick radials. Right now, we are talking a couple more racers to show up to the Majors but I don't think there are enough modern cars to help the numbers.

Larry

[scott fairchild]

Well, when you have 3 "modern" FF's or less show up for a SCCA Major and a couple or more vintage FF guys show up because they're local and they need to change absolutely nothing on their cars, you've got your "noticeable margin"

Not everyone needs to win the race to have fun.

It's also worth noting that except for the front few, many with the modern slicks cars struggle to make lower laptime than cars 40 years their senior on treads.

I would encourage a look at laptimes in the British series's races. An argument could be made that with low grip treaded tires (original intent of the class), age, ability, and ambition of the driver are far greater factors than age, design, and ability of the chassis.

SCCA and other organizations' use of slick tires in the Formula Ford class will be written in the FAFO section of racing history.

[Jonathan Lee]

Since FC has switched to the R60 bias ply nothing has really changed. All that has happened, is that it cost teams more money to set up their cars who were already running radials. It certainly didn't bring any older FC's out to the majors, in fact the Homestead and Sebring event is the lowest amount of entries I've seen in a while.

I and many others who drive modern FF are very happy with the radials. If the vintage crowd loves threaded tires that is fine, they are allowed to use non-radials in Club Ford. Why should I be required to switch my setup to threaded tires after being invested in the radial which all modern race cars run on, just to please the Vintage owners?

If the VFF tire supposedly last 6 weekends, that means it must be very hard. I certainly don't want to go slower. Being realistic the vintage crowd could run in CF at the SCCA but they don't. Instead they choose to run at many other clubs and speak poorly about the SCCA.

Realistically, you might attract a few vintage FF to run at a specific major if we switch to VFF, and the rest of the modern FF crowd will not be happy to have to change setup and go slower.

[stonebridge20]

UK FF Uses Similar to VFF Tire: As I understand, the Avon ACB9/10 tire are used for most or all FF racing in the UK and it is treaded bias ply construction. All of the modern FF cars come from England and therefore should be set up and designed for the Avon ACB9/10 tire, which seems closer to a VFF tire than a radial slick. So I don't understand the logic that drives the need for modern FF to use slicks here in the United States.

No Open Tire Rule: I don't think anyone is advocating running VFF against slicks but to have everyone on same tire.

Club/Vintage FF Performance: There are some very fast Club/Vintage FF on VFF tires that beat-out modern FFs (also on VFF) regularly. Of course, it is track dependent.

Just Need a Marginal Increase in Attendance: We just need to have a couple more cars to show in FF at the Majors. If SCCA were running VFF exclusively, I would surmise there would at least a couple local FF racers that would show up. I can also guarantee, that no locals would show up, if they had to switch to slick radials. Right now, we are talking a couple more racers to show up to the Majors but I don't think there are enough modern cars to help the numbers.

Larry

@jonathanlee

[Larry H]

Since FC has switched to the R60 bias ply nothing has really changed. All that has happened, is that it cost teams more money to set up their cars who were already running radials. It certainly didn't bring any older FC's out to the majors, in fact the Homestead and Sebring event is the lowest amount of entries I've seen in a while.

The bias ply slick is $100 less than the radial. Even this switch might help cross over as the setup isn’t as different as switching from bias to radials. Some drivers think that the bias tire is easier tire to drive.

I I and many others who drive modern FF are very happy with the radials. If the vintage crowd loves threaded tires that is fine, they are allowed to use non-radials in Club Ford. Why should I be required to switch my setup to threaded tires after being invested in the radial which all modern race cars run on, just to please the Vintage owners?

This is not about pleasing the Vintage owners,, they are as a group are pretty pleased where they are racing today. This discussion is about increasing car counts at the Majors, so that FF stays relevant and a part of the SCCA Run-Offs. The VFF FF segment is the biggest market today that SCCA FF could draw to improve car counts at the Majors, even 2 or 3 would make a huge difference. What is concerning is that is too difficult to cross over from bias ply treaded tires to slicks, so instead these cars will just stay home and increase the risk that FF will no longer be part of the premiere SCCA classes.

If the VFF tire supposedly last 6 weekends, that means it must be very hard. I certainly don't want to go slower. Being realistic the vintage crowd could run in CF at the SCCA but they don't. Instead they choose to run at many other clubs and speak poorly about the SCCA.

I don't believe that anyone claimed that the VFF tire would last 6 weekends, nor does the Toyo, if they are driven hard. They do last longer than a R60 slick and cost significantly less. My experience is with Toyos and they lose about 1 second over 2 weekends. I think the VFF tire is similar. But many run their tires for 4 or 5 weekends. Have you ever driven the VFF tires? I know of a few drivers that have been on Toyos, VFF and slicks. All say that slicks are better but the VFF tire is a good fun tire and would race VFF instead of slicks if it was best for the FF market.

Realistically, you might attract a few vintage FF to run at a specific major if we switch to VFF, and the rest of the modern FF crowd will not be happy to have to change setup and go slower.

That’s all we need, is a few. I don’t think we are talking vintage-vintage but probably cars like the DB-1/6 or 90s Van Diemens but there few very fast Titans.

It’s probably better to do 2 or 3 seconds slower than not have a premier place to race FF.

We need to get this class on it's feet first and then fine tune it.

[stonebridge20]

The bias ply slick is $100 less than the radial. Even this switch might help cross over as the setup isn’t as different as switching from bias to radials. Some drivers think that the bias tire is easier tire to drive.

This is not about pleasing the Vintage owners,, they are as a group are pretty pleased where they are racing today. This discussion is about increasing car counts at the Majors, so that FF stays relevant and a part of the SCCA Run-Offs. The VFF FF segment is the biggest market today that SCCA FF could draw to improve car counts at the Majors, even 2 or 3 would make a huge difference. What is concerning is that is too difficult to cross over from bias ply treaded tires to slicks, so instead these cars will just stay home and increase the risk that FF will no longer be part of the premiere SCCA classes.

I don't believe that anyone claimed that the VFF tire would last 6 weekends, nor does the Toyo, if they are driven hard. They do last longer than a R60 slick and cost significantly less. My experience is with Toyos and they lose about 1 second over 2 weekends. I think the VFF tire is similar. But many run their tires for 4 or 5 weekends. Have you ever driven the VFF tires? I know of a few drivers that have been on Toyos, VFF and slicks. All say that slicks are better but the VFF tire is a good fun tire and would race VFF instead of slicks if it was best for the FF market.



That’s all we need, is a few. I don’t think we are talking vintage-vintage but probably cars like the DB-1/6 or 90s Van Diemens but there few very fast Titans.

It’s probably better to do 2 or 3 seconds slower than not have a premier place to race FF.

We need to get this class on it's feet first and then fine tune it.

This gentleman understands the situation.

Pay attention Jonathan.

[Roland V. Johnson]

Well not entirely true but mostly true. Formula Ford the Series, a west coast FF series uses bias ply Hoosier slicks. So it's SCCA, FRP and FFTS not on VFF. Hmmm.

The Series also use engines that are not compliant with any other Formula Ford Rules that I know of.

[old 59]

[QUOTE=stonebridge20;670907
Not everyone needs to win the race to have fun.[/QUOTE]

Hold on, what’s that?!

[Larry H]

I would like to share a discussion on tires we had on the last Formula F/1600 Racing USA group Zoom meeting last Thursday. It was pretty clear to me that there is a very deep division on tires and that the single tire for all FF in the US is very uphill battle, as no one is willing or or even needs to compromise, as they all happy in their little bubble of racers from their area/organization. The concept that SCCA Super Tour FF entries would grow if there were crossover racers from local series is unrealistic with the current polarization of tire choice. I firmly believe that local racers will not participate in SCCA Super Tour because of time and effort to align with SCCA radial tire requirement and that it is a big deal to make the change for one or at best two races.

[Garey Guzman]

I would like to share a discussion on tires we had on the last Formula F/1600 Racing USA group Zoom meeting last Thursday. It was pretty clear to me that there is a very deep division on tires and that the single tire for all FF in the US is very uphill battle, as no one is willing or or even needs to compromise, as they all happy in their little bubble of racers from their area/organization. The concept that SCCA Super Tour FF entries would grow if there were crossover racers from local series is unrealistic with the current polarization of tire choice. I firmly believe that local racers will not participate in SCCA Super Tour because of time and effort to align with SCCA radial tire requirement and that it is a big deal to make the change for one or at best two races.

I was also in that Zoom meeting but I didn't get the same impression. Although a guy from a separate west coast series discussed his groups usage of non FF-spec tires, a tire change wasn't on the agenda and isn't a current point of discussion in the FF-USA group.
The main take-aways form his discussion for me was how his group grew through email contacts, FB and online posts. This drove potential member engagement. This is what the meeting is about to me - reaching out to FF racers, past and present, inviting them to the SCCA Majors and offering help and camaraderie at the event. I can say with certainty that I will go to my first Majors events in 2025 for the first time in many years! I appreciate Tony's enthusiasm and enjoy talking FF with like-minded racers.

[stonebridge20]

I would like to share a discussion on tires we had on the last Formula F/1600 Racing USA group Zoom meeting last Thursday. It was pretty clear to me that there is a very deep division on tires and that the single tire for all FF in the US is very uphill battle, as no one is willing or or even needs to compromise, as they all happy in their little bubble of racers from their area/organization. The concept that SCCA Super Tour FF entries would grow if there were crossover racers from local series is unrealistic with the current polarization of tire choice. I firmly believe that local racers will not participate in SCCA Super Tour because of time and effort to align with SCCA radial tire requirement and that it is a big deal to make the change for one or at best two races.

That's fine if the SCCA people would like to stay with slicks. My suggestion of treaded tires was only an idea to possibly help them keep their class. Personally, it will make absolutely no difference to me and I would guess anyone who's racing vintage FF if SCCA FF lives or dies.

[E1pix]

…no one is willing or even needs to compromise, as they all happy in their little bubble of racers from their area/organization.

This strikes me as a primary reason that things continue to stagnate.

The same cause nearly killed Indycar, of all things. That took twenty years to reverse, despite having all the money in the world to improve things. It’s not rocket science to realize FF and FC have little to none of those powers to survive.

It only makes sense for everyone to get on board with a single, long-lasting tire type for all FF if not FC, as the Brits were cooperative enough to realize for the greater good. If different manufacturers want to build them, let them, monopolies never benefit anyone beyond the monopolizers.

Having a single tire type than can also run in the rain saves yet more budget, including race-day scheduling delays and even by reducing crash damage from taking a chance on slicks.

It’s mind-numbingly clear that some to most can’t afford new tires every weekend and stay home instead. It’s equally obvious that the guys with more money like using that as another advantage in affording new tires every time out, buying wins instead of earning them. Maybe telling their friends they “podiumed” is more important, leaving out that only two cars were slower?

So a treaded tire’s a few seconds slower but lasts 4x as long, where’s the real loss if fields are full?

Rising entry fees are an obvious result of smaller fields, and can’t be resolved until fields grow. Fields can’t grow until fixable issues like tire cost are actually fixed.

None of this is hard to see, even from the sidelines — but can’t be resolved without simple cooperation for the greater good. What’s possibly more important than that?

[Messenger Racing]

Yes Garey you are correct - our focus is promotion of Majors parcipation. Eric Little joined us to share what was happening on the west coast. We heard some great information - it helps us understand why some do not run Majors. The purpose of the Formula F/1600 USA is to encourage SCCA majors participation in 2025 and these snipets help us understand the regional groups in such a massive geographic base as the USA.

We love our FF addictions. FF are cool cars and we want to beat the drum for them in SCCA majors just like others do within their FF groups.

[John LaRue]

There is currently an agreement in place for the FF spec tire and without looking in my notes I do not recall when that is up for renewal. That being said, would it be of any benefit to consider approving the Hoosier VFF tire for the interim? Although it would likely be uncompetitive with the slick radial, would that improve the car counts or only muddy the waters?

[stonebridge20]

There is currently an agreement in place for the FF spec tire and without looking in my notes I do not recall when that is up for renewal. That being said, would it be of any benefit to consider approving the Hoosier VFF tire for the interim? Although it would likely be uncompetitive with the slick radial, would that improve the car counts or only muddy the waters?

You have absolutely nothing to loose by approving the Hoosier VFF tire for use in SCCA majors.

[Jonathan Lee]

There is currently an agreement in place for the FF spec tire and without looking in my notes I do not recall when that is up for renewal. That being said, would it be of any benefit to consider approving the Hoosier VFF tire for the interim? Although it would likely be uncompetitive with the slick radial, would that improve the car counts or only muddy the waters?

This is not a change with all positives. Sure you might gain a few vintage people because of the tire - let's say 20 for the year.

The question is how many current active "Major Racers" are going to stop showing up because of the tire. It seems we are very split on this topic. It almost seems like more than 70% of the modern FF racers do not want anything to do with treaded vintage tires.

Imagine if we lose 50% of our current active FF drivers at majors, because of this change....

To put this into perspective, switching to the vintage tires will have to gain a lot more than 20 entries per year to be worth while.

This will not attract new people to our class, you know the type of people who watch F1 and want to get into racing because they've always wanted to do it, and want to race a Formula Car with racing slicks - just like the F1 car that they cheer on every weekend.

Instead an older crowd, with older cars might or might not attend majors. For a few races, then decide that they still enjoy their vintage club and vintage race over the SCCA..

I'm not saying, I'm just saying.


Increasing the items on the menu, or changing the menu, does not mean more customers. Many restaurants do this, fail, and then close down. That's why McDonald's keeps the Big Mac that has been popular forever; and works on modernizing their business for the changing times, and PR/ Promotions. And no, when the economy drops during tough times, McDonald's does not align their main business model to something from the 70s - just because they were hot at the time.

I'm not saying, I'm just saying.

[Larry H]

There is currently an agreement in place for the FF spec tire and without looking in my notes I do not recall when that is up for renewal. That being said, would it be of any benefit to consider approving the Hoosier VFF tire for the interim? Although it would likely be uncompetitive with the slick radial, would that improve the car counts or only muddy the waters?

John,

How about SCCA approving all three tires, including the bias ply slick? As you heard in the last Zoom call there was no difference in performance. Can we have this approved for this year. I'm sure that this move would improve attendance.

I doubt that anyone would want to tool around in the back with the VFF but at least its another option.

Larry