New Club Racing Proposal

[patman]

So this should have been a part of your competition planning.

Brian

How should I plan, in your estimation?
If we go by the rules- gcr3.7.4c, than 16 of 29 classes in majors are below the threshold this year. (15 in '23) So do we enforce it or not? Apparently not, so how do I know if my class is coming back? What about the probation year, where was that? And is the decision made by the CRB? Or by SCCA employees? Why have these rules if they aren't followed?

If the club membership doesn't get input to these decisions, then why don't we have club management who are held to a standard of foresight and planning? I keep hearing "it has to be run like a business." So where is the 5 year plan for this business? And are we customers, or shareholders, or both? (Or neither)?
What healthy business makes knee jerk decisions with no planning that alienate large chunks of customer base? Or tells it's customers that services are dependent on customer numbers, but the business is not responsible for marketing, and customers have to do their own recruiting? And if services are cancelled with no warning, it is the customer's fault because they should have bought more?

You think *I* should plan better?
How about SCCA management plans better?

[mmi16]

Most ongoing organizations desired to increase their footprint in their area of activity. SCCA is not most organizations, it wants to end many existing classes and bring in new Miata classes.

Miata's are not the answer to every issue.

[John Nesbitt]

Most ongoing organizations desired to increase their footprint in their area of activity. SCCA is not most organizations, it wants to end many existing classes and bring in new Miata classes.

Miata's are not the answer to every issue.

A better formulation might be: Most ongoing organizations try to follow, or better still, anticipate where the market is going. In our world, the market very clearly leans toward production-based, spec or semi-spec cars. For all kinds of reasons, including lower maintenance effort, lower cost, and perceived relative safety. Even in the purpose-built category, SRF3 and FE2 are the classes prospering. The fact that Mazda actively supports motorsports does not hurt, either.

I would be very cautious about castigating Miatas. Those shoals of SM, SMX, STU etc. entries are subsidizing other lower-subscribed classes.

[mmi16]

A better formulation might be: Most ongoing organizations try to follow, or better still, anticipate where the market is going. In our world, the market very clearly leans toward production-based, spec or semi-spec cars. For all kinds of reasons, including lower maintenance effort, lower cost, and perceived relative safety. Even in the purpose-built category, SRF3 and FE2 are the classes prospering. The fact that Mazda actively supports motorsports does not hurt, either.

I would be very cautious about castigating Miatas. Those shoals of SM, SMX, STU etc. entries are subsidizing other lower-subscribed classes.

Real race cars don't have fenders, doors or roofs.

[Hardingfv32]

A way of looking at time allotment at the Runoffs: Qual and Race time only.... 2220 min of track time for the event divided by 520 entrants equals 4.3 min. Think of it as each entrant bought 4.3 min of the total event time allotment. Now each entrant allocates his time allotment to the class he is in. SM would get a contribution of 211 min and FF 56 min.

Using the 19 Qual groups, each group should get 117 min of the event time allotment. 117 min divided by 4.3 min, the individual entrant time allotment, you get a class/group size of 27 entrants for the average.

So groups above 27 entrants are being shorted based on their financial share of the total entrant fees.

Brian

[John Nesbitt]

Real race cars don't have fenders, doors or roofs.

You should try that line on the EF/FP/HP drivers.

We have all spouted that line. And had a good laugh while doing so. The fact of the matter is that most cars racing today are production-based, and the vast majority of cars on track built in the past 10 years are production-based.

Be careful what you ask for. If the only racecars allowed in 'your' SCCA belong to 'your' class or meet your definition, SCCA Road Racing would disappear.

[Hardingfv32]

You think *I* should plan better?
How about SCCA management plans better?

Believe it or not, all the changes being discussed are driven by the membership. SCCA is a membership association. As such the club is subject to the constant changing trends within its membership. Changes to even recent club plans should be expected to change if membership trends dictate it. The majority is not going to have any patience with the minority.

So your personal plan should acknowledge this possibility of unknown possible changes. This is even more relevant for P1/P2 which has been in a state of fluxes for a decade or two.

Brian

[patman]

Ah, I see. In other words, the club isn't doing any planning at all, just waiting for trends and then reacting. No wonder things aren't working out so well...

And you do realize that the point you are making is that it doesn't make sense for anyone to race in P2, right? And by extension, P1, FA, FC, and any other class with a significant development period. In other words, by your reckoning, most of the people on this board should stop the "bad planning" and quit racing in SCCA....

Guess I got sucked into the politics after all. Sorry guys; I'll bugger off back to the shop and start planning my chumpcar project. Quite likely Brian is correct and there's not really a place for a guy like me in this club anymore anyway.

[FVRacer21]

Real race cars don't have fenders, doors or roofs.

I tripped across this - interesting....

https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cul...lPSxSgJsWzuDGw

ChrisZ

[Rick Kirchner]

Baruth is an interesting variant of asshat isn't he? Like, I read most of his articles and agree on 99% of what he says, and then that 1% is so far out of place I just close the page in frustration. Like this gem:

"My Accord is faster around a track than all but the brawniest purpose-built club-race cars"

Riiiiight. I would direct his attention to a typical FC lap time at Willow Springs and compare that to Randy Pobst's (a real pro driver and not a racing journalist) times in any number of really, really, expensive production cars that would make his Accord look like a 70's Cutlass Supreme.

But he gets one aspect that I think is usually misconstrued - that formula cars and the like are maintenance hogs. Well yes, you have to spend a few hours on them that you probably wouldn't have to spend on a Miata or Mustang. But the formula car doesn't try to kill you falling off the jack, and I'd bet a six pack or two that when serious maintenance is needed, the time element on the street car goes up dramatically. (I'm fresh off of replacing the heater core in a 01 Cherokee, which is positively neanderthal compared to any current vehicle, and I assure you that even so, dash removal is no fun)

While our tire costs are high, its nothing like buying a set of Michelin Cups for a GT3 Porsche (or replacing the brakes for that matter).

[rockbeau25]

While our tire costs are high, it’s nothing like buying a set of Michelin Cups for a GT3 Porsche (or replacing the brakes for that matter).

Some of those guys spend in a weekend what I will spend in a lifetime of racing FC.

[Peter Olivola]

Ah, I see. In other words, the club isn't doing any planning at all, just waiting for trends and then reacting. No wonder things aren't working out so well...

And you do realize that the point you are making is that it doesn't make sense for anyone to race in P2, right? And by extension, P1, FA, FC, and any other class with a significant development period. In other words, by your reckoning, most of the people on this board should stop the "bad planning" and quit racing in SCCA....

Guess I got sucked into the politics after all. Sorry guys; I'll bugger off back to the shop and start planning my chumpcar project. Quite likely Brian is correct and there's not really a place for a guy like me in this club anymore anyway.

You seem to want to ignore the changes that have come about in both society and, not unrelated, racing. When FF was the most popular single class in SCCA racing, the club was the dominant form of non-professional road racing in the U.S. Since then, in addition to what you would call the evils of Enterprises and Miatae, The CanAm has come and gone, professional F-5000 has come and gone, professional FAtl has come and gone and Indycar has split, declined in popularity, reunited and is still rebuilding its place the racing firmament. Meanwhile, NASCAR has ascended to the most dominant pro spectator racing while F1's rise in the U.S. is without an American star. NASA, marque clubs and track day programs have grown, all excluding open wheel cars and with only limited acceptance of prototypes.

The real bottom line here is that there are fewer and fewer people interested in racing formula and prototype cars for a variety of reasons including things entirely out of the control of sanctioning bodies and race promoters.

I have a question for you: Why should it be SCCA's responsibility to rescue any class or category of car when participation wanes? That is what you're suggesting.

[Fred Michael]

Believe it or not, all the changes being discussed are driven by the membership. SCCA is a membership association. As such the club is subject to the constant changing trends within its membership. Changes to even recent club plans should be expected to change if membership trends dictate it. The majority is not going to have any patience with the minority.

So your personal plan should acknowledge this possibility of unknown possible changes. This is even more relevant for P1/P2 which has been in a state of fluxes for a decade or two.

Brian

Brian , respectfully....you are full of it