Fire bottle expiration

[SteveG]

I might be a bit behind on this, but when did SFI impose a 6 year life on fire system bottles?
Seems seriously wasteful and expensive.
What am I expected to do with an expired bottle? Pay to have it recycled or just vent it into the atmosphere and throw the bottle away?

Steve

[Offcamber1]

IN case you accidentally set off your new in-date bottle at the track. If you've been through tech you can at least safely race that weekend, then refill or reorder a new one.

[EYERACE]

Who is...will be ? .....enforcing this - new to me - bottle expiration ? VDCA? IMSA ? SCCA ? NASA ? FARA ? SVRA ?

News to me

[SteveG]

Who is...will be ? .....enforcing this - new to me - bottle expiration ? VDCA? IMSA ? SCCA ? NASA ? FARA ? SVRA ?

News to me

firebottleracing.com specifically states that they will not service one of their bottles that is 6 years or more old. There is a manufacture date on all of their bottles.

SafeCraft verbally told me today that they would service my existing bottle but that service would expire on 2/2025. I bought the system on 2/2019.

As far as SCCA goes:
The GCR says in 9.3.22.A.6 All fire systems shall be serviced according to manufacturer’s specifications.
As a nationally licensed scrutineer I always inspect the fire system and I will point out to the competitor that their bottle is out of date and refer them to the GCR section. I will recommend that they follow the rules. I have no idea what SCCA tech does at the runoffs.

For other groups, I don't know.
I have a vintage FF with an RMVR log book with a note from 2019 that the bottle has expired AND previous owner replaced the bottle. That is what started this thread.

BTW Anyone want to buy a new unused Willians 6 point harness set? They expired in the box on a shelf in 2023 so they must be unsafe.

Steve

[99sh]

I sent my expired Safecraft bottle last year for servicing. They still performed the work however peeled off the SFI sticker. This was also the decal where they would punch out the month/year of service.

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[SteveG]

I sent my expired Safecraft bottle last year for servicing. They still performed the work however peeled off the SFI sticker. This was also the decal where they would punch out the month/year of service.

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

Maybe that's a solution for my Safecraft system, I peel off the SFI sticker.
Safecraft specifically told me they would not service it AT ALL if the bottle was over 6 years old, same as Firebottle.
Maybe policies have changed, that's what I'm trying to figure out.

Steve

[DanW]

I might be a bit behind on this, but when did SFI impose a 6 year life on fire system bottles?
Seems seriously wasteful and expensive.
What am I expected to do with an expired bottle? Pay to have it recycled or just vent it into the atmosphere and throw the bottle away?

Steve

One reason is the likelihood of inoperative failure increases with time, just like the relief valve on a pressure vessel. The most likely failure is corrosion/seizure of the plunger in the head causing the failure of the plunger to pierce the rupture disc. The other possible failure mode is internal or external failure of the bottle itself while holding pressure at 150+PSIG.

The old AFFF bottles had problems with the foam solution precipitating solids and plugging the siphon tube.

I discovered the bottle on my Crossle dated back to 1983 when I bought it in 2015. Pressure at 150. I pulled the pin.... Nada. Zip. Turned it in for recycling the halon.

[Lee Johnson]

.....
I discovered the bottle on my Crossle dated back to 1983 when I bought it in 2015. Pressure at 150. I pulled the pin.... Nada. Zip. Turned it in for recycling the halon.

Dan, who did you find that takes in smallish fire bottles to recycle the Halon fluid?

[Lotus7]

firebottleracing.com specifically states that they will not service one of their bottles that is 6 years or more old. There is a manufacture date on all of their bottles.

I've seen this too, and found it interesting to compare to the many hand-held extinguishers I have (and have had) over the years in my house and in the shop. Virtually every wall-mount extinguisher I've ever owned has had a "suggested replacement" date 15 years in the future. Maybe they deteriorate with vibration?

[Rick Kirchner]

nope - they just want the money

[DanW]

Dan, who did you find that takes in smallish fire bottles to recycle the Halon fluid?

The largest user of Halon is the US military, mostly Navy and Air Foce. They have an exemption from the EPA. If you have a local fire service company that serves the military, they might recycle.

It was a Fire system service company in Union City, CA. They do marine systems, so they recycled Halon.

Shipping is challenging though.

https://www.aaafireprotection.com/

[halcyon]

I send my bottles to Spa Technique every two years for refill and servicing. The last time I sent them in, the sent me new bottles back as well as returning to old empty bottles. There was no additional charge vs normal servicing without a bottle switch.

[Lotus7]

I send my bottles to Spa Technique every two years for refill and servicing. The last time I sent them in, the sent me new bottles back as well as returning to old empty bottles. There was no additional charge vs normal servicing without a bottle switch.

Interesting, did they ever explain why this was required?
"refill" sounds like they're suggesting the fluid effectiveness expires after only 2 years?

[Charlie Schmidt]

Interesting, did they ever explain why this was required?
"refill" sounds like they're suggesting the fluid effectiveness expires after only 2 years?

probably to ensure a complete fill...a small loss would not necessarily show on a pressure gauge

[Lotus7]

probably to ensure a complete fill...a small loss would not necessarily show on a pressure gauge

Always wondered if/why fire bottles 'weep' over time? Anyone have any hard evidence?
A friend recently found his (admittedly older) fire bottle gauge inexplicably in the red, and after removal, seemed surprisingly light in weight.

[DaveW]

I weigh mine every year to assure the contents are still there.

[DanW]

Always wondered if/why fire bottles 'weep' over time? Anyone have any hard evidence?
A friend recently found his (admittedly older) fire bottle gauge inexplicably in the red, and after removal, seemed surprisingly light in weight.

Usually bottles weep due to the firing head gasket leaking over time.
Some extinguisher fluids have lower vapor pressures so the bottle is pressurized with nitrogen after filling. Others have enough vapor pressure on their own, such as Halon 1301 (now obsolete)

That's why you check the gauge and weigh the bottle periodically. Personally, I would like to have a means to exercise the activating pin without puncturing the rupture disc underneath to ensure the extinguisher will function when needed.

[Rick Kirchner]

I had a 1301 system with no gauge on my FSV. Safecraft re-filled it years ago, then I crashed the car and just stuck the parts in storage. Several years later, the bottle was empty. That system used a seal that is punctured by a tube driven by the handles, and that thing must have leaked a lot.

The leak rates on halons should be pretty low. The molecules are freaking huge. Novec 1230 is actually Perfluoro(2-methyl-3-pentanone) CF3CF2C(=O)CF(CF3)2

It's not like we're trying to hold in Argon or helium...

I have a design that would eliminate the need to re-cert and allow the user to maintain the head. If I draw it up on F360 someday I'll post it. What we need is for sanctioning bodies to tell the manufacturers "we want these things to be testable in the field and maintainable by the user" and then require that. And before one of the usual club cheerleaders comes along and says the SCCA lacks the power to do so, that's what working with the other sanctioning bodies and your insurance will do. You would already have the support of every driver, owner, and prep shop.

[FVRacer21]

Interesting, did they ever explain why this was required?
"refill" sounds like they're suggesting the fluid effectiveness expires after only 2 years?

Novec 1230 and Halon are probably good for over 20 years. I had an old tank of halon, but with no gauge. I weighted it every year but after 30 years decided that without a gauge it might be just fluid without any pressure. I still have it but probably better to hand it to a recycler than test my theory.....

Most recertifications allow for removal/recycle l of the material, recertification of the tank, and then proper refill. Same as done to current air conditioning systems.

BTW - Why is Novec 1230 being discontinued?According to a press release by 3M, this decision was made in fear of even more stringent government regulations over PFAS in the future. While 3M will honor their contractual orders of Novec 1230, they have stopped taking any new orders for the product.Jul 10, 2024. In light of this, there are now new alternatives for Novec 1230, such as Fike FK-5-1-12, Fike SF 1230, and the Kidde Fluoro-K. Hopefully, the 3M Novec 1230 phase out will lead to more fire suppression alternatives in the future, and potentially even more environmentally friendly solutions.

https://firealarm.com/3m-novec-1230-...0the%20product.

I would assume there is a good inventory of Novec 1230 around - but this might be a good argument for extending the "service life" of the systems, in order to minimize loss of any during recertification. Spa, Lifeline, etc. should have statements to the "sustainability" of what we are currently buying.

ChrisZ

[Messenger Racing]

I wanted to add that I have seen tanks removed from formula cars to refill. Upon inspection - I found corrosion that looked like a small rust bubble - when I probed the spot softly - the metal crumbled and I had a hole - I always suspected that was climate related but the spot was on the bottom and I sure was glad I found it. Prior owner had been racing the car that way. Stay safe out there.

[Rick Kirchner]

3M is no longer making Novec 1230, but there are plenty of other suppliers. Novec is just the trade name for the chemical in my post above.

[Teuobk]

To answer the original question, the 6-year maximum service life for SFI-approved bottles was imposed starting in November 2010.

Interestingly, the FIA has a 10-year service limit for fire bottles. Both the SFI and FIA require recertification every two years.

Jeff

[Rick Kirchner]

stainless bottle solves the corrosion problem AND eliminates the painting step.