Educate Me!

[Jonathan Lee]

Dear Racing Community,

I want to learn more about a whistler testing device for engines. I was told by a few individuals that it can be used to check engine displacement and compression ratio by simply removing the spark plug and connecting the device.

I'm not sure if there are different types of whistler devices, as a few unexpected things came up when we tried to get the SCCA to use a whistler.


1) They said it was too windy on the day we wanted them to use it. This doesn't exactly make sense to me, but nevertheless, the option of using the whistler was disregarded at the time of the tech.

2) On another weekend, I was told that the whistler can only check compression ratio, and not displacement. This person also claims the whistler requires an inputted displacement number to calculate compression.

Obviously, this wouldn't be good in the case that the engine has a different displacement than what is legally allowed - then the compression ratio would be measured incorrectly. Also, I wouldn't be able to check for legal displacement - which is one of the capabilities that I originally thought the whistler was good for...



If you know the answers to these questions, I would love to hear your input. If you're not really sure, please do not answer - it would make things more confusing.


Thanks in advance,

Jonathan

[Rick Kirchner]

VARA used to check Formula Fords each year before the start of the season, but don't any more. Wayne Mitchell passed, but perhaps Todd Strong will come on here at some point, as I'm sure he's been around and seen it done multiple times.

P&G gauge tests displacement and a whistler does compression. Here's a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4txVm9bbfA

[John Nesbitt]

In SCCA, anyway, the Whistler is not actionable (i.e. the stewards will not take action based solely on a Whistler reading), merely indicative. Use it to decide whether to proceed further.

Tactical note: If I were protesting someone's engine compression ratio, I would specify the inspection in two steps:

1. Do a Whistler test. No cost. If the Whistler indicates a legal compression ratio, then withdraw the protest. If the Whistler indicates a higher-than-legal compression ratio, then continue to step 2.

2. Pull the head and cc it. Some bond required.


Note: There is history to suggest that the Whistler tends to read a tad low (i.e. if one builds the engine Whistler-legal, it may have a higher-then-legal compression ratio).

Note: Whistler accuracy is highly operator-dependent.

[David Ferguson]

Any discussion of the whistler, needs to start with the device and the information provided by the manufacturer. Here is a link:

https://katechengines.com/i-30497781...io-tester.html

[Roland V. Johnson]

John, in a Ford (Kent) the head is flat. There is a negative volume from the head because the valves protrude into the cylinder slightly. The combustion cylinder is in the top of the Piston. Unless you have an extreme overbore there is much more power to be found in the cam, compression and valve profile. There seems to be no sanctioning body I know of that is interested in keeping the engines legal except for Kim Madrid's group. The FF Driver's Club. Most people today just accept being out driven down the straight if someone chooses to cheat. Yes I was a SCCA Tech when we really kept things pretty much in line. At the run-off's every winners engine went home in a box. I never used a Whistler, we popped the head and cc'd it. Now I know there some top line builders that will build anything the customer wants, knowing that the odds of it being found are pretty much nil. Other builders that I know will insist the engine is built to the rules. It is easy to cheat if you have really low integrity. Sorry I hate cheat to win!

[Jonathan Lee]

John, in a Ford (Kent) the head is flat. There is a negative volume from the head because the valves protrude into the cylinder slightly. The combustion cylinder is in the top of the Piston. Unless you have an extreme overbore there is much more power to be found in the cam, compression and valve profile. There seems to be no sanctioning body I know of that is interested in keeping the engines legal except for Kim Madrid's group. The FF Driver's Club. Most people today just accept being out driven down the straight if someone chooses to cheat. Yes I was a SCCA Tech when we really kept things pretty much in line. At the run-off's every winners engine went home in a box. I never used a Whistler, we popped the head and cc'd it. Now I know there some top line builders that will build anything the customer wants, knowing that the odds of it being found are pretty much nil. Other builders that I know will insist the engine is built to the rules. It is easy to cheat if you have really low integrity. Sorry I hate cheat to win!

The guy I'm trying to get to play fair has already been caught in a Honda with no restrictor.
He is slower than slow in the corner and he ran down and beat 2023 FRP champion when he was caught with no restrictor

He has been doing this on and off for the last 10 years and has upset many in the Florida Region. He also has Kent engines that will blow by the best from QS, Butler and even keep up with some zetecs.

He has much more HP than everyone else, when he wants to use it (sometimes 5 - 20+ more)

I agree, big cam (which we hear a lot from him), and also probably big valves and a really oversized engine.
Not to mention, his friend that helps him at the track, has already admitted that he has used a cam, but claims they have only done it 3 times (yeah right, more like 3 times a year)...

I'm sorry to hear that most have accepted cheating at this level.
Wrong is wrong and right is right.
I will not sit by and let him upset my fellow competitors and customers, without taking action.

And we will not be gaslighted with made up stories!

[Lotus7]

Jonathon, if we're discussing displacement rather than compression ratio, how hard is it to protest "displacement"? All Tech needs to do is measure bore and stroke. Even if with crude trackside tools that are accurate to what, say .005", a gross cheat will be instantly discovered. If the measurements at +/- 005 are disputable, that's very unlikely the reason why he's fast. Then you have to decide what to protest next...

(I'm of the same mindset, I DETEST cheating; to the point of retiring rather than fighting it)

[tstrong]

VARA used to check Formula Fords each year before the start of the season, but don't any more. Wayne Mitchell passed, but perhaps Todd Strong will come on here at some point, as I'm sure he's been around and seen it done multiple times.

P&G gauge tests displacement and a whistler does compression. Here's a video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4txVm9bbfA

As Rick mentions we used to have a pretty extensive but non invasive annual tech for the Kent engine. Bore and stroke were measured thru plug hole using a snap over go/ no go gauge for bore and a long stroke dial indicator (and a little geometry) for stroke. Both were accurate to a few thousandths. Then knowing displacement was valid you could use the whistler for CR. With proper technique you could easily get within .2-.3 CR. We also used a cam doctor to check cams as this was the most common mod. Cams were readily available that had the stock lift and duration but with much steeper ramp angles to effectively open and close the valve much quicker. The profile of the cam being tested was plotted and overlayed with plots of known legal cams. All of these tests could be done in about 15 mins (once you have all the tooling and machine setups) with only the removal of a spark plug being required. Are they 100% accurate no, but they could certainly identify differences that are large enough to make meaningful power increases. One area that we never came up with non invasive procedure for was valve profile and size. We played with some borescopes to try to evaluate profile, single angle seats, etc but it was not very conclusive. In the end you are really trying to identify grossly out of spec items and then doing a tear down to determine exact discrepancies. Todd

Spending all my time in vintage racing these days and racing across the country I can tell you there seems to be at least a few very suspect engines in every region you go to. Generally they are the home built or non specialist shop built engines and there is really very little to no policing of the situation. It boggles my mind why someone feels compelled to cheat to win a $10 medal or trophy and brag about how great they are. CHEATERS SUCK!!! Todd

[Jonathan Lee]

Thanks guys.

I've read through each post and recommendation. I appreciate everyone's input and help, a lot of insightful information here!

[Alan Oppel]

For the record, many of the claims of Jame are quite exaggerated. James, you have an axe to grind with a certain person. There was a time when that person was willing to let you come to his shop and disassemble his engine for you to look at anything you wanted. You passed on that because you could not get your customers to pay you for that time. Since then you and your customers have filed multiple protests against that competitor, at least 5 i know of. Typically you load your trailer, and when you are ready to depart, the protest is withdrawn. Not once have you pursued a search for the truth to the point of posting a bond. At the Sebring january event, you convinced the tech team to open the top of his engine and check valve lifts, the only car checked in such a manner, and at your request. You wanted more disassembly, and you wanted to watch.
You have made a habit of constantly threatening to protest him, and my reply is always that if it is a search for the truth, I support that. If you are just harrassing someone, you are out of place. On the grid after the 1 minute is not the time to approach that driver and holler that you are going to protest them, which you have done.
You have filed protests several times when the car he is driving is third or fourth quickest out of the FF group. You say that you are pursuing this for the betterment of our community, but harassment to get a competitor to go away is not appropriate.
As a prep shop owner, your conduct and professionalism and integrity should not be questionable. The rules we all play by are there in black and white.

Alan Oppel
Alan@pitlaneservices.com
407-716-7903

[Jonathan Lee]

Alan,

This is not James, this is Jonathan.

For the record we only protestested your buddy 3 times.

1. SCCA didn't know what to do, so we dropped it.
2. He was caught with a massively hogged out restrictor.
3. We checked valve lift (it passed), wanted to check compression but scca claimed whistler couldn't be used so we dropped it there.

Everyone that comes down to Florida knows that motor ain't right, quiet literally everyone complains to us.

This is getting quite negative and frustrating. The story your buddy tells is getting very twisted and deviates from the truth.

I did enjoy your company in the paddock and you guys were always nice to talk to when things were good, but
I think it's best if we avoid contact and move forward, we will do what we have to, in order attain justice.

It's not about him winning, we don't care about that. It's the fact he is going 3 seconds faster (when he chooses to use his power) than what he should with his corner speed.

Not to mention, his other buddy already admitted the use of a cam in the past.

[jim morgan]

Alan,

For the record James Lee has never filed a protest. Of the three filed against John I have filed two and Rick Bernard has filed one.
I withdrew the first protest because it was late on Sunday and everyone wanted to go home rather than wait for the Stewards to do anything after several hours.
Of the two remaining protests where the engine was examined one resulted in disqualification for a clearly illegal restrictor.
I don't think you can claim a 50% failure rate as an exaggeration.
Visual observations and engine sound aside there is no doubt as to an issue when a small bore formula car has a lower corner exit speed but makes up significant time on the top end. FF should not have faster splits than FC on the banking at Daytona.
Expecting a fellow driver to compete fairly under the rules and using the appropriate procedure when he doesn't does not constitute harassment.
Every effort has been made to address this situation informally over the years but rest assured it will be me, not James Lee, that will continue to file protests when that engine shows up.

[E1pix]

I don’t know this story, but in principle utterly despise cheaters and dealt with them regularly in karting.

They claim “everyone else is doing it,” and always have all the answers when confronted.

By his tenure on this forum, Jonathan has certainly proved his virtue, so accusing him of impropriety is very hard to believe on its face.

Not that some would care, but stories like this are one of a very few reasons we sold our car without ever turning a single lap. I refuse to spend a pile of money on a dream, just to have some wanker playing the game with a wood-covered aluminum bat.

If and when a prep shop is involved (in cheating), the stakes rise from dishonest to disgusting.

The financial and sporting damages cheaters cause are far worse for racing than whatever money they bring into it.

[John Nesbitt]

..

If and when a prep shop is involved, the stakes rise from dishonest to disgusting.

...

I would be cautious about painting prep shops with too broad a brush. I know and have dealt with prep shops (and owners) who are as honest as the day is long. I am familiar with one or two sketchy operators. These judgments are highly specific to the particular person.

[E1pix]

Agree 100% John, and that was my entire point… but I’ve edited for clarity.

I’ve worked with *a lot* of prep shops since 1980, all were extremely honorable, and again the point I was making.

[TimH]

Not that some would care, but stories like this are one of a very few reasons we sold our car without ever turning a single lap. I refuse to spend a pile of money on a dream, just to have some wanker playing the game with a wood-covered aluminum bat.

Eric, there are a lot of good reasons for having to give up racing, but the existence of cheaters is not one of them. So what if they're out there - I just figure they're competing in a different class than I am. If I can beat them all the better but if I don't so what?

[E1pix]

That’s fine if it works for you, Tim, but it’s not an endearing attraction for any sport.

It’s not the main reason we didn’t race… but add new requirements like tech bits, strife between the club and racers, “races” often run under yellow, obvious stress that racers post about here, and the math no longer made sense.

Regardless, my post was for a young racer the sport needs more than ever — and against the idea that blatant cheaters shouldn’t be called out.

That should concern everyone far more than details you quoted.

[stonebridge20]

14 years since Treadway sold those engines and there's still bellyaching going on about them?

I can only chuckle.

[John Robinson II]

14 years since Treadway sold those engines and there's still bellyaching going on about them?

I can only chuckle.

Mike,
Those "engines" bit the dust a long time ago. When asked by a competitor what I did to my engines after getting them back from the same builder, my answer was "remove from the box and put them in". His response was that he changed things...
So when you and JT got a Butler, did you just do what I do???

It is pretty well known that I have several "decent" kents, and he has run me down the straights on the opening laps only. Once there are numerous corners involved, the rabbit has run away....

John

PS I feel pretty confident that mine are legal as they have come back from week long races in boxes several times.

[stonebridge20]

Many, many hours were spent on those cylinder head, intake and carb combinations JR.

As you know, there's not a whole lot of magic in the bottom end of a legal Kent.

Remember, Treadway was on the Runoffs pole at the Road America by 1.5 seconds in 09, cutting his own air with one of those top ends.

JT's engine (originally a Loyning) was disassembled after JT bought the RF81 back after selling it 9 years previously, cryo and REM-ISF treated and sent to Butler for assembly, returned to us and put in the car.
It went on to win every major FF50th race until we crashed into each other at the last race of the year at the Glen and he then sold the car. lol

[John Nesbitt]

Emphasis added below.

..
Of the two remaining protests where the engine was examined one resulted in disqualification for a clearly illegal restrictor.
I don't think you can claim a 50% failure rate as an exaggeration.
Visual observations and engine sound aside there is no doubt as to an issue when a small bore formula car has a lower corner exit speed but makes up significant time on the top end. FF should not have faster splits than FC on the banking at Daytona.
..

Many, many hours were spent on those cylinder head, intake and carb combinations JR.

As you know, there's not a whole lot of magic in the bottom end of a legal Kent.

..

At last report, Kent engines did not have restrictor plates; Honda engines did. Are we even talking about the same engine here???

Thus far, this thread has been largely anecdotal .. speed on the banking .. slow in the corners .. etc. etc.

There is one, and only one, definitive way to settle this question. Protest the engine at the next Majors/Super Tour, and see it though. Lay down the Benjamins, and have it taken apart to the degree necessary to resolve these claims and counter-claims.

If any part of the engine is non-compliant, the protestor will get his bond back. If none are non-compliant, the protestor will have his concerns laid to rest.

Until then, this is just huffing and puffing on a forum.

[TimH]

JT bought the RF81 back after selling it 9 years previously, cryo and REM-ISF treated and sent to Butler for assembly, returned to us and put in the car.
It went on to win every major FF50th race until we crashed into each other at the last race of the year at the Glen and he then sold the car. lol

FWIW I was watching at the end of the Holman straight at his Indy 50th race. He braked impressively late and little into the left-hander, but where he really left everyone in the dust was with noticeably higher revs through the esses.

[Alan Oppel]

I race because i enjoy driving and doing my best. For the record, I will be at Sebring on the 30th of August weekend. I plan to show up and run at the SARRC invitational, but i will want to lap valves and clean up the top end beforehand. Anybody game enough to pay me to pull the head off my engine?

Alan Oppel

[Jonathan Lee]

I've got my answers about the whistler and I appreciate the responses and help from beginning of the thread.

A lot of responses from people who do not know/understand this situation.
This will be my last response to rectify confusions by casual viewers of this thread.


This particular guy has 3 cars: 2 fords and 1 Honda. Plus multiple engines of varying degrees of compliance[/B].

Which is why he was caught with a restrictor hogged out to the diameter of the throttle body.

This has nothing to do with some "magic head" from 15 years ago.

Complaint Heads don't make kent engines:
-Lope at idle
-Emit exotic smells from the exhaust
-Have a way different tone on track and enable one to turn much greater rpms
-Cause a car to idle at 1700 rpm
-Do similar speeds to a FC car on top
-Pass/run down other FF cars (with some of the best complaints engines in the U.S) like their in a different class

It's not a good thing if you are in defense of someone who has already been caught blatantly being non-complaint and someone known by the entire grid (where he races) to have way more power than legally possible.

"Birds of a feather, flock together"

[stonebridge20]

It's not a good thing if you are in defense of someone who has already been caught blatantly being non-complaint and someone known by the entire grid (where he races) to have way more power than legally possible.

"Birds of a feather, flock together"

Better be careful there young man.

[Alan Oppel]

For an accurate recommendation to the first question, local roundy round tracks and tech may help. Early in the year, during Speedweeks, there are about 6 local tracks in central florida that all do nightly events over two weeks and there are plenty of compliance issues. In a short while you can see what tools are used, and how. A lot to be learned there.

[stonebridge20]

FWIW I was watching at the end of the Holman straight at his Indy 50th race. He braked impressively late and little into the left-hander, but where he really left everyone in the dust was with noticeably higher revs through the esses.

And that would be due to either gear ratio choice or the ability to carry more speed through that section.
You'd really need to see his data to understand how he does it. We laid my data over his in the RF81 at the 40th after I ran three test sessions in the same car and I wanted to rip up my license and take up knitting as a hobby.

[TimH]

And that would be due to either gear ratio choice or the ability to carry more speed through that section. You'd really need to see his data to understand how he does it. We laid my data over his in the RF81 at the 40th after I ran three test sessions in the same car and I wanted to rip up my license and take up knitting as a hobby.

He was clearly carrying more through the three corners I could see, and by the sound of the motor was ready to accelerate harder as he left the turn complex (into a good passing zone, BTW).

I don't have to be that good to have fun.

[scott fairchild]

And that would be due to either gear ratio choice or the ability to carry more speed through that section.
You'd really need to see his data to understand how he does it. We laid my data over his in the RF81 at the 40th after I ran three test sessions in the same car and I wanted to rip up my license and take up knitting as a hobby.

As someone who hopefully kept up with Jeremy the longest at the 50th, there is zero question in my mind that everything was on the up and up. That's BEFORE you take into account his reputation, Rollin's, or yours Mike. All top notch people IMO. His DRIVING magnified a really well prepared package. We came strong, doing EVERYTHING we could within the rules and got beat fairly. It was an absolute honor to share the experience and l learned a lot from it. I hope we get to do it again at the 60th, but I'll be ready friend.

Scott

[Roland V. Johnson]

[scott fairchild;666358]As someone who hopefully kept up with Jeremy the longest at the 50th, there is zero question in my mind that everything was on the up and up. That's BEFORE you take into account his reputation, Rollin's, or yours Mike. All top notch people IMO. His DRIVING magnified a really well prepared package. We came strong, doing EVERYTHING we could within the rules and got beat fairly. It was an absolute honor to share the experience and l learned a lot from it. I hope we get to do it again at the 60th, but I'll be ready friend.

Scott

Dan Cowdrey totally agrees. That Titan Mk-6 stayed pretty close to you Club Fords though. And yes, the Ivey was totally legal.

[scott fairchild]

[QUOTE=Roland V. Johnson;666360][scott fairchild;666358]As someone who hopefully kept up with Jeremy the longest at the 50th, there is zero question in

Dan Cowdrey totally agrees. That Titan Mk-6 stayed pretty close to you Club Fords though. And yes, the Ivey was totally legal.

agreed. 3 cars, 3 drivers, 3 builders, all fast, legal and clean

really a pleasure

[stonebridge20]

Jonathan, you're inbox is full.

Clean it out.