Navigating the Future: Securing the Path Forward for FF1600

[Jonathan Lee]

SCCA has confirmed changes starting in 2026:

Class Structure:

• Regional level club racing: Will continue with 30+ classes.
• Major Events: Will feature approximately 26 classes.
• Hoosier Super Tour: Will host fewer than 26 classes.
• SCCA Runoffs: Will be limited to 18 classes.

Qualification for Runoffs:

• The top-5 or top 1/3 from each of the 7 conferences (6 divisions + Hoosier Super Tour) qualify for the Runoffs.

Attendance Trends (Majors):

• In 2018, FF was the 6th most popular class at Major Events.
• In 2022 and 2023, FF ranked around the 11th-12th most popular.
• As of 6/17/24, FF is currently the 17th most popular out of 26 classes for 2024, marking a significant decline in Major attendance.

Challenges and Concerns:

• Attendance in 2024 has been at an all-time low, raising concerns as SCCA prepares to reduce Runoffs classes to 18.
• The potential consolidation of classes (e.g., FA) could further marginalize FF's position.

Community Perspective:

• Despite acknowledging the dominance of classes (concerning popularity) like SRF3, SM, and SMX, which outnumber others significantly, there's a sentiment against competing with a large pool of inexperienced drivers in low performance race cars.
• Many FF enthusiasts have favored local regional events and events hosted by numerous private clubs, contributing to scattered attendance across different tracks/events.

Call to Action:

• We need to emphasize the importance of participating in Major and Super Tour Events to strengthen the FF community's presence and competitiveness.
• Advocating for a strategic approach to support your local Major/HST races within your conferences rather than only participating in private clubs or regional races, thereby boosting participation for Major/HST races.

Long-Term Viability:

• Concerned about the survival of FF outside of SCCA, with private clubs facing economic challenges and entry fee hikes.
• Urging the community to take SCCA Major/HST events seriously as a crucial platform for FF's future viability and visibility.
• Concerned about the survival of FF within the SCCA

Conclusion:

• Encouraging all FF enthusiasts to prioritize attending SCCA Major/HST-sanctioned events, stressing that SCCA's decision regarding class structure for 2026 is final, with other classes expected to compete for survival.

[Jonathan Lee]

[FVRacer21]

With the exception of "SCCA has confirmed changes starting in 2026:" (They want this confirmed by August, but it is not a done deal today)

These are some very good starting points.

As a non-FF competitor, but having been part of a revitalization of FV, my suggestion is to:

1. Get a database of all FF running, in parts, in barns, etc.
2. Try to find out why people are not running and help them
or match them with people looking for cars.
3. Focus on certain races to get higher turnout - it primes the system
4. Get sponsorship specifically to lower entry fees - same reason.

I am guessing that there might be a lot of cars on the sideline because of silly reasons.

Maybe there needs to be a loaner system for the FF spec tire for people who don't normally run that tire, or an allowance for the vintage tire (not likely to win a Majors - right?)

The 21 cars at the Sprints are certainly not the only cars in the country - although bodes well for this year.

ChrisZ

[Roland V. Johnson]

Attendance Trends (Majors):

• In 2018, FF was the 6th most popular class at Major Events.
• In 2022 and 2023, FF ranked around the 11th-12th most popular.
• As of 6/17/24, FF is currently the 17th most popular out of 26 classes for 2024, marking a significant decline in Major attendance.

You left out the part about Formula Fords have mostly gone Vintage racing. We almost always have good fields there and do not have to pay big dollars to run up front. Yes, the fields are competetive.

[Jonathan Lee]

I don't think you guys get it.

We know where all the Formula Ford's are:
Vintage Racing, FRP, sitting around and attending random races once in a while.



These clubs will no longer be able to host FF class if it dies from SCCA.
Being eliminated for SCCA messes up the entire ecosystem. There will be a whole lot less people running in general, meaning manufactures will no longer make parts, vendors will go out of business and people who service these cars (engines/gearboxes) will have to go somewhere else.

There will be no coming back from this. If SCCA drops it, there is only a matter of time before the rest comes crumbling down.

[TimH]

These clubs will no longer be able to host FF class if it dies from SCCA.

I can't agree. They're already getting FAR more participation than SCCA, and I'm sure provide at least as much of a parts/support market. Probably more. How many of SVRA's entrants have equivalent classes still running SCCA?

I sometimes wonder if FF wouldn't be better off if SCCA just gave up and faced the fact the customers are voting with their feet/dollars/whatever.

[Bob Wright]

I'm not sure it is the intent of SCCA to simply eliminate open wheel racing. I do believe there needs to be hard look at the rules and adjustments to keep pace with the changing landscape of motors, chassis and builders.

I think one of the big issues with the decline of OWR IN SCCA (other than the FE2) is lack of builders and currently available new cars. Right now I can count two FF builders: Spectrum and Ray where one can order a new car. Piper is at the whim of Doug Learned, and I have no idea if anyone could build a VD. Ligier has no interest building Mygales anymore. FC is even more restricted and FA has turned into nothing more than a dumping ground for older, out of production high performance cars. FV appears reasonably healthy and as far as I know people are building new cars (I may be missing info here).

There are some nifty chassis out there that can be bought: Tatuus USF17 and PM18 for example. The FE2 is close to being a really nice car (add some 3 way shocks and a diffuser). The F4 car with some added HP becomes interesting and the FR could be ok if it loses some weight.

There are some paths to follow, but OWR participants have to be flexible, stop eating themselves from the inside and focus on how to go forward and adapt to what appears to be a new world.

[John Nesbitt]

It may be more a question of lack of demand for new FF chassis than lack of suppliers. After all, a core feature of free markets is that demand brings forth supply. If people wanted new cars, someone would build them. It might be better to frame the question as, Why is there so little demand for new FF cars at today's prices?

[John Nesbitt]

I shall take a stab at answering my own question. For the sake of argument, let’s use 1968 (FF introduced) as a base line.

1. Cost. In 1968, an FF cost £999 (Lotus 51, Cortina engine, Renault gearbox), roughly $2750. According to Google, a base Corvette cost $4320.

Since 1968, the US CPI has gone up by a factor of 8.75. A base Corvette costs ~$60K today. A new FF costs (?) $60K. So, a Corvette’s price has gone up by a factor of ~15, and an FF’s by a factor of ~20.

2. Proliferation of Classes. In 1968, there were about five OW classes (FV, FF, FC, FB, FA). Today, there easily a dozen (FV, FF, FST, F5, F6, FC, FM, FE2, FA, FB/F1000, F3, F4, plus CF and CFC). Plus a slew of odds and sods like FR, PFM, etc. That proliferation leads to dilution.

3. Proliferation of Racing Organizations. In 1968, SCCA was basically the only game in town. Today, add vintage racing, FRP, and various regional organizing groups. Some of the decline in SCCA OW participation simply reflects migration to other venues.

4. Social Changes. Two-career families. More energy spent on childrearing and children’s activities. Always-on work environment. All these compete for free time. Fewer teenagers are learning to drive. Vanishingly few are learning to tinker with cars. They just have other interests.

5. Economic Changes. In 1968, it was possible to race on a modest income. Not so much today. The US GINI Coefficient (a measure of inequality) is rising, and is one of the highest among industrial democracies. That works out as squeezing the middle income deciles. Throw in the absurd cost of medical care, higher education, and big-city housing.

All this contributes to an absolute decline in OW racing. (And explains in part the relative popularity of spec classes. See also: FE2.)

I wish that I could propose a magic bullet. If we could rewind the clock, we might ask ourselves whether the proliferation of classes, and expensive specification creep, were good for the long-term health of OW.

Given that we are where we are, perhaps the best way forward is to reduce the number of events, concentrate the limited number of entries (i.e. more per event), and thereby produce more enjoyable racing. That alone might lure some cars out of garages.

[Jonathan Lee]

I agree for the most part.

Racing for the middle class has become less of an option.

But a brand new SRF3 is 53k compared to a new FF at 60k
Gears and other parts aren't any cheaper either (I looked at their parts replacement sheet)

There are too many events in general, and too many places to run FF.
SCCA will host about 6 events per year at 1 single track. It would be beneficial for all classes if they only hosted 2-3 events at each track.

Maybe private clubs like FRP could consider only hosting 5-6 events per year, freeing up the schedule for everyone and reducing cost. This gives competitors a chance to also participate in the Majors/HST to qualify for the Runoffs.

[Jonathan Lee]

I guess another question should be: if FF only exist within the SCCA at the regional level, how many more years does FRP intend to host events and support the OW classes?

[TimH]

Why is there no demand for new chassis?

Maybe because the marginal improvement over a used one is so small. In our group we run on DOT tires and a well-driven vintage car can generally compete with a Piper.

Let's not forget a DB1 podiumed recently at the Runoffs.

[reidhazelton]

There is little demand for new chassis because buying one is the cheap part - by far. And that is the problem.

[reidhazelton]

I guess another question should be: if FF only exist within the SCCA at the regional level, how many more years does FRP intend to host events and support the OW classes?

Much longer than if SCCA had large entries. The best thing that could happen for FRP would be fore SCCA to kill FF or FC.

[andyllc]

There are plenty of people spending big money to race in SCCA......enough people to have very full formula car fields.....but they choose to not spend it racing in formula car categories. Why? Figure that out and you are going to be on your path to fixing the problem.

[stonebridge20]

I don't think you guys get it.

We know where all the Formula Ford's are:
Vintage Racing, FRP, sitting around and attending random races once in a while.



These clubs will no longer be able to host FF class if it dies from SCCA.
Being eliminated for SCCA messes up the entire ecosystem. There will be a whole lot less people running in general, meaning manufactures will no longer make parts, vendors will go out of business and people who service these cars (engines/gearboxes) will have to go somewhere else.

There will be no coming back from this. If SCCA drops it, there is only a matter of time before the rest comes crumbling down.

You are wrong on everything in this post except where all the Formula FORDS are.

[B Farnham]

With the exception of "SCCA has confirmed changes starting in 2026:" (They want this confirmed by August, but it is not a done deal today)

These are some very good starting points.

As a non-FF competitor, but having been part of a revitalization of FV, my suggestion is to:

1. Get a database of all FF running, in parts, in barns, etc.
2. Try to find out why people are not running and help them
or match them with people looking for cars.
3. Focus on certain races to get higher turnout - it primes the system
4. Get sponsorship specifically to lower entry fees - same reason.

I am guessing that there might be a lot of cars on the sideline because of silly reasons.

Maybe there needs to be a loaner system for the FF spec tire for people who don't normally run that tire, or an allowance for the vintage tire (not likely to win a Majors - right?)

The 21 cars at the Sprints are certainly not the only cars in the country - although bodes well for this year.

ChrisZ

This.

FC has been encouraging drivers to get out and attend the same events. That would be a great plan for FF as well next year. To see 20+ cars at most super your events would get FF off the chopping block.

There are people out there with cars sitting. Need to get them back out racing!

Brian

[B Farnham]

Duplicate

[Jonathan Lee]

Reid - My question about FRP's intention for it's future plans is for Bob to answer.
What worries me, is if the majors path goes away, there will be no other place for modern FF's to race - other than FRP. I like Bob's series, but we are all getting older. Does Bob plan on handing the series over for someone else to handle in say 10 years? Or will FRP stop when Bob moves on to the next chapter in his life? If both Majors and FRP is no longer an option for FF1600 - that will not be a nice sight.

Mike - I hope you are right and I'm wrong. Realistically speaking, vintage racing attracts an older crowd that is only getting older. A young generation of people looking to get into Formula Car racing that cannot afford usf2000 will look into modern Formula Ford racing. However, there is no chance in hell that many will want to go vintage racing in some car from the 70s.

[stonebridge20]

Mike - I hope you are right and I'm wrong. Realistically speaking, vintage racing attracts an older crowd that is only getting older. A young generation of people looking to get into Formula Car racing that cannot afford usf2000 will look into modern Formula Ford racing. However, there is no chance in hell that many will want to go vintage racing in some car from the 70s.

Once again, you're wrong. I'm seeing more and more younger people buying and racing vintage FF's especially in the last few years. I'm also seeing people switching to vintage FF from sedans especially in the Northeast because the racing is that good here due to the Formula Ford Challenge Series.

Fun fact: the record for starters in a 24 Hours of Lemons race is 216 cars. That's 800 to 1200 drivers in one race.
Tell me how SCCA can complete with those kind of numbers in attracting the younger crowd which is the overwhelming demographic in those type of organizations?
FF in SCCA had it's day when it was actually a stepping stone to higher forms of racing and SCCA was the only game in town. Unfortunately, neither of those are true anymore.

[Larry H]

I can see that Jonathan Lee's racing expectations are at a different level than mine and probably many others.

Maybe we need to find out why we all run FF, this might serve as basis to grow FF. For me:

1) FF is a fast enough, unadulterated racing car which gives me great satisfaction when it's done right or even when it's not. The formula provides for a relatively level playing field, so my need to self-judge and competitive needs are met.

2) It's relatively cheap to run and maintain, not karting cheap but probably the same as running a Miata. I think that controlling the tire bill is key. I buy a set of Toyos every 3 races for $880 mounted and balanced. Admittedly, the tire bill is not the deal breaker for me but for others it might be. Get everyone on the same set of cost-effective DOT tires and I'll bet there will be more club racer cross over to SCCA events. Also, SCCA needs to eliminate the high and mighty attitude and over regulations, that prevent cross over. And, yes, there a lot of FF events but that is a by-product of SCCA not listening and catering to the customer.

There are enough "vintage" cars out there to satisfy the market today and for the foreseeable future. It's not the lack of cars, its the lack of drivers. In my racing area, we have a crap ton of vintage FF that not being driven and we need to find out why.

[racerjon1]

Let's not forget a DB1 podiumed recently at the Runoffs.

I'm not sure 2015 is recent - and it's before the spec tire which could be viewed as an "era" change meaning 2015 wasn't "recent" in 2016 even.)

Runoffs DB1 results:

2015: DB1’s last podium (3^rd)
2016: No DB1s in the race. (I finished 11^th in a DB3 after a crash running 9th, John Benson finished 13^th after a crash in a DB3-89 and I think he was running top 5)
2017: 23rd
2018: 14^th (A DB6 was 3^rd, but that’s not a DB1)
2019: No DB1s in the race. A DB6 was 10^th, driven by this thread starter)
2020: 14^th (A DB6 was 11^th)
2021: 16^th (there were only three DB1s in the event)
2022: 12th
2023: No DB1s in the race

Maybe because the marginal improvement over a used one is so small. In our group we run on DOT tires and a well-driven vintage car can generally compete with a Piper.

This is probably your answer - there is certainly strong evidence that the SCCA Spec tire has hurt older car participation. DOT tires (or additionally bias-ply) reduce the advantage of newer chassis.

Why is there no demand for new chassis?

In SCCA, because of the tires, there certainly seems to be demand for a new chassis, there just isn't strength in Formula car/motorsports economy to drive purchases.

[racerjon1]

I shall take a stab at answering my own question.

1. Cost.
2. Proliferation of Classes.
3. Proliferation of Racing Organizations.
4. Social Changes.
5. Economic Changes.

Since I work on this daily, all of this is right (or really close to many of the factors) but there is one thing that you haven't mentioned that I see when I talk to others:

6. The comparative cost(s) of running open wheel.
When we go back to 1968, and even the early 80s - I believe that the strict cashflow of running an open-wheel/purpose built car was less than or equal to the most economically accessible production-based classes. E.g., if every car on a track had to be turned into a race car and maintained like a race car, buying something purpose-built for the task was a pretty smart choice.

Now that so many production cars can be racecars as they sit, buying a purpose-built racecar is a "luxury" item, and one that increases other costs.

For instance - I know a driver who runs up front in Supertours in B-Spec with a car that he says, "I built it for $13k, if I sold it I'd ask $17k." Sure, it's a slow 4-cyl car but: It's not complicated, parts can be bought at the local auto parts store. It doesn't take a lot of setup or maintenance. He isn't thinking about gears, alignment, etc. He puts a set of parts on it and then sends it. And, he has people to race. His costs: cash, labor, complication are all very low.

So we talk about how Formula Cars used to be popular, but in reality we're talking about the least expensive, lowest-maintenance cars being popular and that hasn't gone away. Formula cars have just been replaced by B-Spec, Spec Miata, et. all.

I wish that I could propose a magic bullet. If we could rewind the clock, we might ask ourselves whether the proliferation of classes, and expensive specification creep, were good for the long-term health of OW.

The magic bullet is pretty clear: reduction in complication. The most popular classes reduce that. The reality is that even if formula car development had been frozen in 1982, we'd still be more complicated than so many things available today.

The question (I believe) is how do we mitigate the creep that happened to make formula cars as low an economic drain as possible, because low drain = more potential participants. (Even if it isn't 50 cars like back in the day.)

Given that we are where we are, perhaps the best way forward is to reduce the number of events, concentrate the limited number of entries (i.e. more per event), and thereby produce more enjoyable racing. That alone might lure some cars out of garages.

Forced scarcity is a concept I'm a fan of. I think other organizations have created this for themselves and it economically works (NASA, the "low-buck" endurance programs, etc.) It might not pick up overall participation more than marginally, but at least if this happened the Regions who need economic sustainability to host races can feel more financially comfortable creating space.

But the other part of that equation is to look for ways to reduce the expense. Some expenses of course are more fixed than others (entry fees, travel costs) but maybe this is a new spec tire, maybe it's running the Kent motors on pump gas, maybe it's rules decisions to reduce complication like specified gear sets or maximum alignment specs.*

Sure, things like that might reduce the performance and "fun" but formula cars are losing the popularity game to vehicles that have these "less fun" things in place, so we might have to chose between, "less vehicle dynamic fun but more of us," or "more fun" and winning the class of one in the SCCA or running at vintage events.

_{* I'm not saying these are the specific answers, but doing what we're currently doing isn't working, so thinking beyond the status quo in all areas might benefit us.}

[Roland V. Johnson]

RacerJohn, I do not understand your statement "in a class of one". Please explain. On the West Coast there are many more Vintage Formula Fords on track than SCCA FF's. When the Honda's were allowed, Formula Fords went Vintage Racing. It was not Spec tires that drove that exodus, but rather engine choices made by SCCA. I have not looked the numbers up, but I understand Formula Ford entries are so low that Cal Club and SFR knowingly allow cheater Ford engines to run. Come to Road America for the Brian Redman and check out the field. Yes, there will be a few cheater engines, but most of the front runners have legal pro built engines. Cheaters Suck!

[Pragmatist]

I'll admit I haven't raced since the late nineties but I have my eye on a FF so who knows. What I have said forever is if you want to improve the racing for everyone you'll split the racing weekends into open wheel and closed wheel. By doubling track time you have the opportunity to have two drivers compete in one car and get the same track time as a driver would now. When I started racing FV as a teenager in the late seventies I had a partner. He would race one weekend and I would crew then we would swap. I have no interest in anything closed wheel and don't see any benefit having them there while I'm there.

Allow me to add, After FV I raced dirt and pavement circle track. Even those are shrinking.

[racerjon1]

RacerJohn, I do not understand your statement "in a class of one". Please explain. On the West Coast there are many more Vintage Formula Fords on track than SCCA FF's. When the Honda's were allowed, Formula Fords went Vintage Racing. It was not Spec tires that drove that exodus, but rather engine choices made by SCCA. I have not looked the numbers up, but I understand Formula Ford entries are so low that Cal Club and SFR knowingly allow cheater Ford engines to run. Come to Road America for the Brian Redman and check out the field. Yes, there will be a few cheater engines, but most of the front runners have legal pro built engines. Cheaters Suck!

Sorry Roland, my bad - that should have said "winning the class of one at an SCCA event or vintage.

Which also isn't a slight against vintage racing (which is obviously getting it more right these days when it comes to participation) it's that this thread is about SCCA racing.

I'll edit to correct.

[Larry H]

I'll admit I haven't raced since the late nineties but I have my eye on a FF so who knows. What I have said forever is if you want to improve the racing for everyone you'll split the racing weekends into open wheel and closed wheel. By doubling track time you have the opportunity to have two drivers compete in one car and get the same track time as a driver would now. When I started racing FV as a teenager in the late seventies I had a partner. He would race one weekend and I would crew then we would swap. I have no interest in anything closed wheel and don't see any benefit having them there while I'm there.

Allow me to add, After FV I raced dirt and pavement circle track. Even those are shrinking.

I’ll go back to racing karts, if I can’t race OW cars.

In AZ, there aren’t enough OWCs to justify an entire day exclusive for OWC. For the time one group works for all real race cars (formula and sports racers) and we get two days of racing. Everyone is pretty happy with the arrangement but I’d like to see more FF.

For instance - I know a driver who runs up front in Supertours in B-Spec with a car that he says, "I built it for $13k, if I sold it I'd ask $17k." Sure, it's a slow 4-cyl car but: It's not complicated, parts can be bought at the local autoparts store. It doesn't take a lot of setup or maintenance. He isn't thinking about gears, alignment, etc. He puts a set of parts on it and then sends it. And, he has people to race. His costs: cash, labor, complication are all very low.

So we talk about how Formula Cars used to be popular, but in reality we're talking about the least expensive, lowest-maintenance cars being popular and that hasn't gone away. Formula cars have just been replaced by B-Spec, Spec Miata, et. all.

I can only speak to club racing FF but the cost to run a Miata are likely comparable with the FF at a bit more but I'm willing to spend a bit more to drive a real race car. Vehicle Cost: "Vintage" FFs are priced somewhere between 13K and 25K. I bought mine for $15.5K, it's a 93 EuroSwift. Competitiveness: Toyo tires seem to equalize chassis performance differences. My EuroSwift is probably as quick as a later model VD. Tire Bill: Comparable? Crash repair is likely the same. Travel is the same.

[Jonathan Lee]

Once again, you're wrong. I'm seeing more and more younger people buying and racing vintage FF's especially in the last few years. I'm also seeing people switching to vintage FF from sedans especially in the Northeast because the racing is that good here due to the Formula Ford Challenge Series.

Mike - that's very good to hear! I'm not involved with vintage, so I wouldn't know.

Judging from the responses on this thread, it looks like a lot of people on Apexspeed have gone to vintage, and are having a great time!

As for me, I really enjoy SCCA (most of the time) and FRP.
After reading many of your responses, I've brainstormed a bit and thought of why some classes and organizations are doing so well. I think I have the answer. I will do my best to support the class and introduce new people to FF1600 racing within the SCCA and FRP

[MilesCrabbe]

One thing that gets overlooked most of the time is the marketing/perception of the class produced by it's members. 99% of any new car buyers are going to be Google literate. If you Google "Formula F SCCA" you get a wikipedia article about the class that is fairly well written but could use some work, the SCCA website (good but immediately tells you how big the Spec Miata class is going to be at the Sprints), FRP (good), RCFFS (also good but also out of date), and then Apexspeed where the first 5 results are all threads talking about how to keep it or the SCCA from dying (not good). We have the best marketing you could possibly have for the under 30 crowd at the moment since the FF is now the defacto rookie iRacing car. There are 28,000 people in the USA learning what a FF is because of that alone. Those people are the people you should target to grow the class, even if you convert <1% to actual drivers that's still between 1 & 280 new entries. But right now when they try to find information on how to go FF racing, they get a lot of reasons why they shouldn't. I would know because I am one of these people.

I've been in the SCCA and FRP paddock since 2015 so I knew what I was getting into. I'm working through my novice permit doing regionals right now. I did my driver's school and first SARRC race at Roebling in a SRF3 to see how I liked the car, I liked the SRF3 but it just wasn't what I wanted. I got an offer I couldn't refuse on a Citation Fit and in 5 laps at AMP this past weekend, with a car that was actively trying to kill me, I had more fun than a whole TT session I did earlier in the day in a friend's SRF. I bought a Fit not because of any performance advantage but because I know it'll run for a long while and still make most of it's power without a chance of it going ker-blammo from a spun bearing just from use. I'm not going to lie, once I have my full competition license I probably won't do any regionals and only the HST/Majors that are local with the end goal being to go run F1600. In an attempt to make everything fair, the points systems and runoffs invite system has made the super tour and majors almost meaningless. They are basically check boxes for runoffs entry and the triple crown thing they try to promote is never relevant. I'll happily go to events if they meet 2 out of 3 things: well run organizationally, competitive, or decent value. Hell, I'll run by myself if the event is well done and I get some track time for my dollar. FRP satisfies all 3, Regionals can usually satisfy points 1 and 3, HST/Majors never satisfy 1 or 3 and only on occasion 2.

[CGOffroad]

This is where the Formula Fords can be seen running this weekend. Nice turn out.

https://racehero.io/events/road-amer...lts/1073742176

[BeerBudgetRacing]

This is where the Formula Fords can be seen running this weekend. Nice turn out.

https://racehero.io/events/road-amer...lts/1073742176

That's the June Sprints. 600 cars - all packed classes.

[stonebridge20]

That's the June Sprints. 600 cars - all packed classes.

You probably ment to say all packed groups instead of classes.