... as scca open-wheel slides irreversibly into oblivion ..?

[Lotus7]

Lime Rock regional this weekend,

182 cars running, 11 are open wheel

and those 11 are spread over 6 classes

sad

[Pi_guy]

I might be confused not sure why anyone would like that post.

Kind of like giving a thumbs up to the musicians on the Titanic the trip sucked but the musicians played well at the end.....



Back to my garden

[924RACR]

It's a VERY different story for next weekend at the Sprints.

But there's no question open-wheel racing at the Regional level is suffering.

The question is: what are we going to DO about it?

[Lotus7]

It's a VERY different story for next weekend at the Sprints.

But there's no question open-wheel racing at the Regional level is suffering.

The question is: what are we going to DO about it?

agreed, it's encouraging, but obviously under very specific circumstances; the combined FF + FC entry for the Sprints is still less than the SRF3 count at limerock today;

after 40 years of crewing, and two decades reading apexspeed posts, I fear nothing is going to get old formula cars out of the garages and into scca events at this point....
(and once the old guys in those huge CFord fields move on, will that be it?)

[B Farnham]

Lime Rock regional this weekend,

182 cars running, 11 are open wheel

and those 11 are spread over 6 classes

sad

FV has its own run group with 27 cars.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I've always said this.
Class participation is geographic.
I've never seen 27 FVs appearances in a season out west.

[Rick Kirchner]

We used to have several vees in VARA. Most of those folks moved to FF. FF likes to have its own run group. That puts vees in with small sedans......

There was also some pretty rampant cheating back in the day.

Stack all that up and the result is very few vees.

Does seem to be very regional in nature. with the younger crowd, FV, and for that matter, FF are replaced by karts, and I suppose you could through some SRF in there as well.

[Lotus7]

FV has its own run group with 27 cars.

apologies, missed that
(biased as I've never had anything to do with them)
my 11 cars in 6 classes is still my point

[Agitator]

apologies, missed that
(biased as I've never had anything to do with them)
my 11 cars in 6 classes is still my point

Never had anything to do with them, so they don't count as open-wheel?? Your point is invalid. I love the way we've now decided what counts as open wheel, and what doesn't. Apparently if it's not the open wheeled car YOU drive, it's inconsequential. Dang. No wonder no one wants to play in our sandbox. We're elitists that can't even find common ground within our own ranks.

[Dennis McCarthy]

I love LRP and consider it my home track, unfortunately a $625 entry fee for a regional plus the cost of fuel and a set of tires, no Sunday racing, few area hotels that are either dumps or very expensive simply don't appeal to me any longer...

[Lotus7]

Never had anything to do with them, so they don't count as open-wheel?? Your point is invalid. I love the way we've now decided what counts as open wheel, and what doesn't. Apparently if it's not the open wheeled car YOU drive, it's inconsequential. Dang. No wonder no one wants to play in our sandbox. We're elitists that can't even find common ground within our own ranks.

apparently my apology wasn't sufficient;
I don't drive anything, I crew for FF, FC, FA, P1, and GT cars, and yes, I didn't notice the additional class with FV in it.
Guilty, and again, a thousand apologies specifically to you sir.

edit: are you at Lime Rock this weekend?

[Lotus7]

I love LRP and consider it my home track, unfortunately a $625 entry fee for a regional plus the cost of fuel and a set of tires, no Sunday racing, few area hotels that are either dumps or very expensive simply don't appeal to me any longer...

I understand all that completely, and is specific to my concerns for the long term ...

[Purple Frog]

Many old car racers just don't understand how expensive playing on weekends has become for many. I live in an area where fishermen put $1,600 worth of fuel in their $400,000 boat pulled by their $100K F250 ... just to go out for one day! And there is not enough spaces at the boat ramps for all of them. To them road racing a FF looks inexpensive.

The cost of racing is a first world problem.

I ran out of desire when it crossed $2,000 per weekend (travel, entry, sleeping, tire wear, fuel). It has always been the sport of Kings, and for a few moments there years ago some of us peons could afford to play.

[romoman]

The FV group in the NorthEast is something special if you follow them. They are really putting in the work to get cars out, have great racing, and support each other. They have been at it for a few years and you can see the fruits of their effort in 27 cars at LRP this weekend.

[Lotus7]

Many old car racers just don't understand how expensive playing on weekends has become for many. I live in an area where fishermen put $1,600 worth of fuel in their $400,000 boat pulled by their $100K F250 ... just to go out for one day! And there is not enough spaces at the boat ramps for all of them. To them road racing a FF looks inexpensive.

The cost of racing is a first world problem.

I ran out of desire when it crossed $2,000 per weekend (travel, entry, sleeping, tire wear, fuel). It has always been the sport of Kings, and for a few moments there years ago some of us peons could afford to play.

Agreed, and what about my neighbor who spends $2000 to take the family to merely watch an NFL game... ????
I no longer ask "why don't open wheel guys race any more?", was just commenting on a sad situation.

[stonebridge20]

The people that don't understand the decline in SCCA attendance I think, are the one's that have been around for a while. They are the one's that remember the days of over subscribed classes and for some, having to battle your way to a Runoffs invite. Those days were when SCCA was the only game in town. Just like an overabundance of classes in SCCA, there's an overabundance of other clubs to race in that offer a more specific product that caters to a specific crowd.
Specific brand car club races and Drifting is what's killing SCCA, period.

[FVRacer21]

I was one of the over 30 FV's running at Lime Rock. Taking LR out of the equation (the entry is high, the area can be expensive, and it is a fast track with lots of potential for accidents, not to mention the Friday thing [although Thompson is the same], I wonder if some of the issue is self inflicted.

I spoke to a Spec Racer driver about the cost of the tranny and engine upgrades, and wonder if we had not done the same to FF and F2000 (FC) We are trying hard NOT to do it to FV. BTW - my son was on the pole in FV for the Sam Posey race - no digital dash, no data acquisition, no super shocks, no radio, no trick brakes, just as simple a car as there is.

For FF, maybe the Honda was 10 years too late as it was, or a thousand other things affected the problems with FF. No plane crashes because of one issue, and there were a lot of things working against FF. The bigger issue is, I feel the SCCA proposal is misguided - the people at the top don't need help - it is the people at the bottom. The gap from FV to FF grew too great and the same will happen with Regionals and Majors.

I think there will be a part 2 to the SCCA plan and that just might chase formula cars out of the SCCA.

ChrisZ

[Jim Nash]

.

[kea]

This is the start of the Sunday morning race this weekend at Grattan.( FV were in another group).
The primary cars are from the GLC series for FC and CFC.
And even though the track had some new sealer on it, times were quick.
Steve Myers, driving a 1990 Reynard, was within .030 seconds of the CFC track record.
Not a bad turn-out for a weekend where SVRA was running at Indy, another vintage group at Blackhawk Farms and there was a Vintage event at Mosport in Ontario (that did wreck havoc on the FF entry)..

[Hardingfv32]

I wonder if some of the issue is self inflicted.....I spoke to a Spec Racer driver about the cost of the tranny and engine upgrades, and wonder if we had not done the same to FF and F2000 (FC) We are trying hard NOT to do it to FV.

Your thought is completely wrong. There is no better example than FV's as raced around the rest of the world. They upgraded during the 70's-80's and US FV competitors never made major chassis or engine upgrades. You might think it is fine working with very hard to find junkyard parts, but current SCCA competitors are not interested in servicing their race car, much less with used parts from junkyards. I live in Los Angeles and there are no junkyards the have 60's VW parts.

Keeping classes updated is always the best for a classes long term health.

Brian

[caracal25]

I spoke to a Spec Racer driver about the cost of the tranny and engine upgrades, and wonder if we had not done the same to FF and F2000 (FC) We are trying hard NOT to do it to FV.
ChrisZ

You can always find a random "Spec Racer Driver" that thinks we should still be using Renault engines.

The fact of the matter is, mechanical changes have only been made as parts became obsolete. The change to the new gearbox has brought in a large number of young drivers that want to drive real race cars without being outspent. A used ready to race SRF3 with the Sadev gearbox can be bought between 35-40K and they're pretty much bulletproof.

Maybe if the open wheel classes were looked at the same way the numbers would be larger. I raced a formula vee for years but gave up due to low car counts in the SE and difficulty finding parts. There are reasonable solutions but people have to be willing to change.

[FVRacer21]

Your thought is completely wrong. There is no better example than FV's as raced around the rest of the world. They upgraded during the 70's-80's and US FV competitors never made major chassis or engine upgrades. You might think it is fine working with very hard to find junkyard parts, but current SCCA competitors are not interested in servicing their race car, much less with used parts from junkyards. I live in Los Angeles and there are no junkyards the have 60's VW parts.

Keeping classes updated is always the best for a classes long term health.

Brian

I had left working for Skip Barber Racing School before they added wings to the "FF" school cars (they actually had Dodge engines by then). The instructor I spoke with said they had to turn up the hp on the engines just to go the SAME speed with wings. This was done for show and not go. This ended up with them chasing parts failures as the cars were more stressed. The fact that FV is over 60 years old, is an anomaly, but Spec Racer is over 40 now..... If the SCCA had wanted to, the Formula Enterprise could have been a Honda or Mazda non-winged car, could have sold for about $25k with financing, and basically put FF, F6 and FV out to vintage racing. Legends cars has sold more than 9000 cars since 1992 (with a base price of under 20K today). As soon as semi monocoque was allowed in Sports 2000 - the price of cars skyrocketed. If we are a club, why did not Enterprises buy a gazillion FIA rain lights and sell them at just above cost? To get back to Formula Vee, Bill Noble believed in steady but slow development of the class to keep it fresh, but people were not keeping their eye on the ball. Almost all of the changes done have been for performance, not cost savings or even parts replacement. If that is what people want - fine - but then do not go and complain about the price of the cars. A FV in Australia goes from US 13K to 36K, I cannot find a price in South Africa, but they are water-cooled cars and probably only 40 in the country. Irish/English FV seem to be fairly reasonable with what I have seen in the 10- 15K US price, but I will check with the Callahans next time I see them. I will leave others to look at FF, FF2000 etc. and compare cars of 20 years ago and see what changes have increased the cost and the effect on the class.

ChrisZ

BTW - Lime Rock had well over 200 entries (including some who were double dipping.) This despite the entry cost and all the other things going against it. I think this is because it is the only SCCA race at this track. I can justify some of the cost as I am only 25 miles away and I can exchange travel and motel costs for the additional entry. You can pretty much check off this track from having a Runoffs race as there was NO extra Paddock space - we would have to use the upper spectator area for any more. Now we USED to have 300 plus for Regionals, but that was when a one car trailer - was really a one car trailer - but that is another story.

[R. Pare]

Spec racers are "real race cars"????

[caracal25]

Spec racers are "real race cars"????

Yes and you won't find one thread where we're trying to save our class...

[DaveW]

Spec racers are "real race cars"????

Compared to the '59 Chevy I owned way back when, yes.