might want to check your bottle....

[Rick Kirchner]

Has a bit of a "discussion" with a friend of mine regarding fire systems this week - and he brought up that Lemons had found a number fo systems where the gauge was stuck. Now he didn't say how they determined that - but it might behoove one to check.

I believe if you put the bottle in the freezer the gauge should dip nearly to the red, and if you then dunk it in warm water it should head for the green. If it doesn't move, then you can't rely on it.

I can only guess they pulled bottles out and found the gauge green but the bottle light - which would mean empty, because I can't imagine there being any gas left unless the leak had just started.

3M is phasing out NOVEC because they don't want to be associated with making PFAS anymore, but Safecraft says it will still be around in generic form for quite a while.

[Steve Demeter]

Great Advice!!!!!

[DanW]

The AFFF bottles are known to have the siphon tube inside the bottle plug up with solids that develop over time.

[Lotus7]

There was a video a few years ago (couldn't find it just now) that showed some guys discharging random old fire bottles and extinguishers that had "needles in the green".
The sludge that barely oozed out was really eye-opening.

[bassracer]

My 2 year bottle was up for recert this year and I considered "F SFI" to roll with it...but I'm lucky to have SPA here in town with great service, 1-2hr turn around. $100 and "compliant".

[Dee]

Who services the SPA AFFF bottles in the So Cal area
Thanks,
Dee

[Rick Kirchner]

I've ranted on this stuff before. IMHO, AFFF bottles and the like should be banned. They were a response to the US's overly ambitious plan to get rid of Halon as quickly as possible without a suitable replacement. There are better solutions now, and given the drawbacks with clogging, the "re-cert" is just a band-aid on an artery.

To make matters worse, we now all suffer from this requirement, wether its supported by science and statistics or not.

The only agents should be gaseous, exist as a liquid under modest pressure (50-100psi) with the gauge in the bottle and the actuator removable for testing. The parts count would be essentially the same (parts count being the biggest predictor of the cost of a manufactured item) and I'd certainly be willing to pay a bit more.

Same thing with belts. You mean to tell me that after 70 years of seat belts and god knows how much advancement in material science, the best we can do is nylon with a two year life or polyester? One would think that a layered approach of materials would be one answer, coatings another. When one considers the amount of handwork in sewing belts I'd think the plastic parts represent only a small percentage of the cost.

[TimH]

You mean to tell me that after 70 years of seat belts and god knows how much advancement in material science, the best we can do is nylon with a two year life or polyester? One would think that a layered approach of materials would be one answer, coatings another.

The existing technology is perfectly good if you don't leave it sitting out in the sun on your rooftop for two years. Street cars don't time out their belts.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

The system I have is supposed to be serviced every 2 years. Emptied and recharged.
I think that is a good idea....

[Steve Demeter]

Do not forget that AFF contains the notorious "forever chemicals" that have contaminated many water systems around Air Force bases whee practice firefighting is done.

Now there are untold millions being spent in an attempt to remediate them from the aquifers

[Dee]

this is why I went from pro to vintage to track day only and maybe retirement this is all BS

[Rick Kirchner]

The existing technology is perfectly good if you don't leave it sitting out in the sun on your rooftop for two years. Street cars don't time out their belts.

that's the thing right? The accelerated aging test assumes that's what you are going to do, so two effing years. Polyester belts sit in street cars forever. Poly doesn't degrade as fast as nylon. Regardless, why are we using the same crap we were using in the 80's? We're forced into new helmet tech, but for some reason belts don't change?

"The system I have is supposed to be serviced every 2 years. Emptied and recharged.
I think that is a good idea...."

Yeah Paul, but the question is why? If its gaseous, has a working gauge, and if (the big IF) you were able to test the actuator, what makes it any different from anything else on the car? (hint - ****ty design that again, is the same as what I had in my AC FSV from 1972....)

"Do not forget that AFF contains the notorious "forever chemicals" that have contaminated many water systems around Air Force bases where practice firefighting is done. Now there are untold millions being spent in an attempt to remediate them from the aquifers"

Yup. And Novec is also a PFAS chemical. What a tangled web we weave. Halon, a safe, enormously effective firefighting chemical gets bounced because it eats the ozone layer, despite hardly being used. Meanwhile, because the industrialized countries don't want to impose hardship on developing countries, China and India were exempt from the CFC ban (I wonder how many tons of CFCs leaked form Chinese and Indian refrigerators and air conditioners given the state of the art of their manufacturing back in 1995). Then we use AFFF, not only a PFAS, but an item that requires maintenance where Halon did not, and then NOVEC, which really doesn't require maintenance, unless its to shovel money to SFI members.

What the sanctioning bodies should have done, is got together and tell the SFI they want representation in making those specs. This stuff should have never been up to SFI anyway - its a complete conflict of interest. Should be ANSI, SAE, or a sanctioning body spec like FIA.

Think about it - the amount of technology development that's gone on since the 70s in racing, and the fire systems are essentially the same, and the only thing that's changed on the belts is the freaking buckle.

[Steve Demeter]

Well said Rick!!!!