Flagtronic in car warning light system

[racerjon1]

I'm waiting for the open-wheel version to install one in my Citation - there's no room in a visible area for the original configuration.

Yeah, my Swift is about the same. I could put it in the airstream at the top of the main hoop, but that's the only place there is room for it that I could also see it.

This past weekend at the Glen there were NO big-bore formula cars/sports racers running it, and only two of the small bore (an FV and an F6). I didn't see the FV but I did have tech send me a photo of the install in the F6 and when I saw where it was I texted back, "can the driver even see it where it is, cause it looks like from helmet view it would be blocked by the dash, wheel and hand on the wheel."

The text back was, "yeah, the driver says it's pretty difficult to see."

So for us small-cockpit folks specifically, full benefits would need to come from the smaller unit or some type of CAN bus connection so that we could see it in the dash. That I'll fully admit. But I'm still a fan of the system itself, those issues aside.

[Mike B]

The good news for the Runoffs is:

• More people on corner so more attention being able to be put on the Flagtronics unit.
• More people working the system in the tower, including Flagtronics personnel I believe. (Ironically, I won't work it at the Runoffs, I'll be full time photographer that week.)
• All the cars should have it.
• I don't believe we'll have any split starts or worry about that specific procedure. (I think there has been the occasional split start in other years, but don't believe there are any this year.)

So, more work to be done - sure - but it's not enough that the system doesn't have tremendous value as it is.

Maybe I should modify my statement to "there is a lot of work to do after the Runoffs and before next season." As you stated above, FT will have a heavy focus at the Runoffs, there will be lots of people manning the system, FT personnel on the ground, and no split starts. The problem will be the Blackhawk Farms Majors race next May or any other low-subscribed national race that DOESN'T have the niceties in your bullet points. I'll reiterate that there is certainly some potential but I'll also echo Tim's concern that it isn't ready for prime time, or at least widespread implementation in a club that is as fragmented as the SCCA.

[racerjon1]

That is an undocumented flag! The documentation all shows the standard debris flag, but the device shows something else. I'm not sure why it was done and have not received an answer about why it's different than the standard.

So I want to touch on this and this is a good post to bring it up.

If you have it, there are occasionally firmware updates that you will want to make. This is most obvious to us in the tower when someone has a particularly hard curb strike and it sets the "impact" warning off on our end.

With the older firmware versions the only way to shut off that warning is for the driver to push the button or the control-operator to clear it for the driver.

The newer firmware will recognize that the car is still moving on track and automatically shut it off.

So - there is a chance that something undocumented might be a product of older firmware. That's the first place I'd check. If that isn't it - I'd reach out to the folks at Flagtronics and ask. (I'm not sure if there will be a Flagtronics rep at Road America for the Sprints or not.)

[Tim Minor]

Having driven it: I definitely disagree. It's an advisory indicator, supplemental to the actual flag stations and NOT replacing or superceding them.

It was NOT a distraction or confusion on the pace lap. If you find that to be a challenge, I would be concerned about sharing the track with you - cars around you and flag stations are always more immediate and important than any lights in the cockpit.

As far as the mandate for it in all cars... I do think more time to roll this out on that (mandatory) level would be appropriate. But my experience with the system over the course of one weekend aligns with Greg Amy's - it is useful, it is valuable, and DOES improve the safety on track in a real, meaningful way. Which of course should be the most important metric on this - with cost/value a close second, and that is IMO at a fairly reasonable point.

You would be concerned about Sharing the track with me,Obviously you have never been on track with me. I have 35 years of experience in all aspects of racing I’m not against this system,but has yet to be proven Fool Proof.IMHO

[racerjon1]

Maybe I should modify my statement to "there is a lot of work to do after the Runoffs and before next season." As you stated above, FT will have a heavy focus at the Runoffs, there will be lots of people manning the system, FT personnel on the ground, and no split starts. The problem will be the Blackhawk Farms Majors race next May or any other low-subscribed national race that DOESN'T have the niceties in your bullet points. I'll reiterate that there is certainly some potential but I'll also echo Tim's concern that it isn't ready for prime time, or at least widespread implementation in a club that is as fragmented as the SCCA.

Yep, you are right and those are absolutely realities. Not only with the implementation of the system without those niceties that will exist at the Runoffs, but the questions and situations which arise at smaller events.

At this point we're able to implement it at SuperTour and Runoffs because the SCCA has access to a system and Road America has their own. When it comes to non-Supertour Majors and Regionals there is also the question of system acquisition/expense. Those are economic forecasts and decisions that will take more discussion and thought before anything could be mandated further downstream than Runoffs/SuperTour.

And while my experience operating the system may be taken as input, those ultimate choices are outside of my decision chain, and rests with boards committees and other staff.

In other words.. I'm happy to help drivers and officials understand how the system works, but I'm not involved in the choice for requirement!

[924RACR]

You would be concerned about Sharing the track with me,Obviously you have never been on track with me. I have 35 years of experience in all aspects of racing I’m not against this system,but has yet to be proven Fool Proof.IMHO

Good! Then some spurious lights on a pace lap should by no means be a problem.

Regarding sizing: note in my video that I have a Swift dash/cockpit - my car was built from a Euroswift. The display is visible in straight driving; on turns, yeah, it'll be blocked by my hands... but I'm definitely not in need of that info at that point, nor would it be useful - negotiating a corner, and so I'm already past the relevant flag station...

Edit: added the cockpit view of how my FT is mounted...

[brian styczynski]

So I want to touch on this and this is a good post to bring it up.

If you have it, there are occasionally firmware updates that you will want to make. This is most obvious to us in the tower when someone has a particularly hard curb strike and it sets the "impact" warning off on our end.

With the older firmware versions the only way to shut off that warning is for the driver to push the button or the control-operator to clear it for the driver.

The newer firmware will recognize that the car is still moving on track and automatically shut it off.

So - there is a chance that something undocumented might be a product of older firmware. That's the first place I'd check. If that isn't it - I'd reach out to the folks at Flagtronics and ask. (I'm not sure if there will be a Flagtronics rep at Road America for the Sprints or not.)

https://youtu.be/yjz84678j2c?si=h8tLoPG2A-CB1ygi

It is nice they can continually fine tune them for SCCAs needs. I believe they can flash them over the air in pit lane, but maybe I misunderstood.

It was told to me at Mid-Ohio, they had raised the threshold of driver OK prompt from 6G to 25G due to curbs triggering false alarms. This crash in video did not trigger the 25G alarm so maybe further tweeking is needed.

[Steve Davis]

All of the discussion in this thread is .. interesting. Lest we forget WHY SCCA implemented FT in the first place !?? There was a firm belief at HQ that DRIVERS were NOT paying 'enough' attention to the flags in the corners (Kautz being DQ'd from a Runoffs win for missing a flag well OFF TRACK to his right when the line is well off to the left).

This thread shows LOTS AND LOTS of 'issues' with FT. Not to say that FT is not USEFUL to us all.. but it, obviously, is NOT READY to be the 'decider' for exactly what moves a driver SHOULD be taking in various types of events that might be encountered on track. It seemed pretty obvious to me that the ultimate goal of FT in SCCA eyes was... if FT 'says it' , then YOU (the driver) will be held accountable for what WE THINK you should have done.

From all this, we are FAR from any reasonable ability to TRUST FT records (Or VIDEO of what FT SHOWED at any given time) of WHAT any driver SHOULD have done ON TRACK in any particular event.

Even flagging at corners is not ALWAYS perfect, but still is OFTEN is OUT OF VIEW of driver's line of sight due to safety concerns for flaggers. FT is NOT a solution to this issue. It's merely a STEP in the direction of IMPROVING the overall system of communication to drivers from 'those that need to communicate with them'.

Regardless of all this, FAILURE of FT to properly communicate ACCURATE info to drivers.. we are only 'a few moments' away from SCCA declaring that FT is 'god' and issuing CSA actions against drivers based on what it FT showed at any given time on track.

All this, to ME, has PROVEN that FT has NOT "FIXED ANYTHING".. just 'improved' (in SOME CASES) SOME THINGS.. mostly, the ability to issue a CODE 35 to (nearly) instantly CONTROL speeds on track of ALL cars. For THAT it is most useful. For calling foul on missing a yellow.. or passing under yellow.. NO WAY HOSEA!!.

Steve, FV80

[racerjon1]

It is nice they can continually fine tune them for SCCAs needs. I believe they can flash them over the air in pit lane, but maybe I misunderstood.

We misunderstood this initially as well, as we thought it updated the unit but it doesn't. The pit lane/grid "broadcaster" tells the car what track its at, and what corner stations are going to be used/what the zones are.

So, it "updates" it to the location/configuration - but not the firmware.

It was told to me at Mid-Ohio, they had raised the threshold of driver OK prompt from 6G to 25G due to curbs triggering false alarms. This crash in video did not trigger the 25G alarm so maybe further tweeking is needed.

Yeah, it is raised to 25g. The operator would see "25-50g impact detected" or "75-100g impact detected" (its a yellow pop-up and it grabs your attention.) I guess there might be warnings above that, but I haven't seen one.

Do we know that the FV that rolled at Mid Ohio had the unit? That would be interesting to know and make sure we pass that along, because we probably get 2-5 "false" alarms per weekend from curb strikes and I can't imagine why it would trigger on a curb and NOT that crash.

[brian styczynski]

We misunderstood this initially as well, as we thought it updated the unit but it doesn't. The pit lane/grid "broadcaster" tells the car what track its at, and what corner stations are going to be used/what the zones are.

So, it "updates" it to the location/configuration - but not the firmware.




Yeah, it is raised to 25g. The operator would see "25-50g impact detected" or "75-100g impact detected" (its a yellow pop-up and it grabs your attention.) I guess there might be warnings above that, but I haven't seen one.

Do we know that the FV that rolled at Mid Ohio had the unit? That would be interesting to know and make sure we pass that along, because we probably get 2-5 "false" alarms per weekend from curb strikes and I can't imagine why it would trigger on a curb and NOT that crash.

Yes, it was my Dad and he did have it installed. One of the race officials asked if he got the message or not, and he said in the 5 or 6 minutes he was upside down, he did not think to look at FT. We then asked to get the info from race control. The race director texted me that he did not trigger 25G alert. Which is good, he walked away with a couple days of general soreness. But if that doesn't trigger it, I'd hate to see what does.

[Steve Demeter]

Mike B in post 562 and Steve Davis in post 568.

It aint ready for prime time.

So why force it down our throats?

Cause someone without skin in the game thinks it is good for us???

Oh yeah, this is the SCCA, home of governance that .....

[Rick Iverson]

Yep. This is not a growth industry.

Mike B in post 562 and Steve Davis in post 568.

It aint ready for prime time.

So why force it down our throats?

Cause someone without skin in the game thinks it is good for us???

Oh yeah, this is the SCCA, home of governance that .....

[romoman]

Will there be someone at Road America that can look at it? Can you connect thru USB and force it to display a certain flag?

I have no idea if they will have people there. I'm not with Flagtronics. Yes, there are demo modes to show the flags on it.

[racerjon1]

Yes, it was my Dad and he did have it installed. One of the race officials asked if he got the message or not, and he said in the 5 or 6 minutes he was upside down, he did not think to look at FT. We then asked to get the info from race control. The race director texted me that he did not trigger 25G alert. Which is good, he walked away with a couple days of general soreness. But if that doesn't trigger it, I'd hate to see what does.

I'm glad to hear your dad was OK other than a couple days of being sore. That looked pretty nasty.

If those were not 25g hits and it didn't trigger then I'd say that's OK - we don't want false alarms. (I do admit I'd raise an eyebrow to that not being 25g though.)

But - I'm much more curious as to why we'd see big curb hits but not that crash. You'd think if it was going to register a curb, it would for sure register that tumble. I've put it in my notes to pass along to figure out why.

[racerjon1]

Mike B in post 562 and Steve Davis in post 568.

It aint ready for prime time.

So why force it down our throats?

Cause someone without skin in the game thinks it is good for us???

Oh yeah, this is the SCCA, home of governance that .....

Even as an employee I'll be plenty critical of the issues I see with the SCCA. (For instance, personally I'm not a fan of how spec tires were picked for FF, the rain light thing leaves me with frustration and each of those are before my day-to-day job of critically looking at how and who we invite into our road races.)

But..

Who without skin in the game do you think is making the decision about Flagtronics?

[Hardingfv32]

Not ready for prime time??? Exactly who and how do you expect the FT to get up to SCCA specs?

This is a classic example for the Musk product development method. While I am not a fan of the guy personally, you can not deny that his method is the 'fastest and most economical' method of product development, SpaceX, Tesla, etc.. Only talking 'about fast and economical', I recognize there are other issues that could be considered negatives by some people.

The only way the SCCA version of the FT system gets developed is if it mandated and gets in use as as soon a possible. The Runoffs is a perfect time to apply a mandate. You have a solid week of some of the best SCCS FC & RC personnel on station to observe issues with the FT system. There is simply no other 'fast and economical' way of getting this done.

I accept an exemption for cars requiring a smaller FT display.

Brian

[TimH]

This is a classic example for the Musk product development method.

Perfected by Bill Gates in the early days of Microsoft - as long as the product barely worked he could count on hardware improvements to make up the difference.

[GBugg]

I’m wondering if FT will have a smaller version available for us to see at the Sprints.

[Steve Demeter]

Brian,
Are you saying that the users of the FT ( us drivers) should foot the bill for development of it into a workable form?

That is so wrong on so many counts that it can not be elaborated.

We are CLUB RACERS who for the most part do not have the time or money to develop someone else's product because they can not have it ready for prime time themselves.

We are Club Racers, not guinea pigs for others to experiment with.

[Peter Olivola]

I think you have an exaggerated view of the size of the market for something like Flagtronics. If you expect any manufacturer to foot the bill for total product development for the miniscule market that is racing and an even smaller version of that for our form of it, you need to readjust yourself to reality. The alternative is, we wouldn't get Flagtronics at all. That may be just fine with you, but the benefits of the system more than compensate for your personal discomfort with the process.

Brian,
Are you saying that the users of the FT ( us drivers) should foot the bill for development of it into a workable form?

That is so wrong on so many counts that it can not be elaborated.

We are CLUB RACERS who for the most part do not have the time or money to develop someone else's product because they can not have it ready for prime time themselves.

We are Club Racers, not guinea pigs for others to experiment with.

[mmi16]

Brian,
Are you saying that the users of the FT ( us drivers) should foot the bill for development of it into a workable form?

That is so wrong on so many counts that it can not be elaborated.

We are CLUB RACERS who for the most part do not have the time or money to develop someone else's product because they can not have it ready for prime time themselves.

We are Club Racers, not guinea pigs for others to experiment with.

Considering how small the Club Racer market actually is - we are guinea pigs for many of the products we end up buying - some of which work as a advertised and others don't work at all and some are somewhere between the two extremes.

[924RACR]

Considering how small the Club Racer market actually is - we are guinea pigs for many of the products we end up buying - some of which work as a advertised and others don't work at all and some are somewhere between the two extremes.

Indeed, the alternative is simply to spec out products already developed for other markets.

Anyone wanna guess the cost for FIA-specced driver communication devices/systems/network? LOL

[CheckeredFlag]

Indeed, the alternative is simply to spec out products already developed for other markets.

Anyone wanna guess the cost for FIA-specced driver communication devices/systems/network? LOL

You kind of make an interesting point. We were told the FiA rain light needed certification for safety reasons, but yet here we are with an important safety system that is not certified by the FiA.

[Hardingfv32]

You kind of make an interesting point. We were told the FiA rain light needed certification for safety reasons...

You have a flawed understanding of the rain light mandate:

a) A better 'rain light' was judged to be required for safety reasons.

b) The requirement that the rain light be of FIA spec was strictly for administrative reasons. The FIA spec was well researched/developed, something SCCA was not prepared to do. The FIA light is also much simpler for Tech to administer.

In the case of the FT system, SCCA is willing and capable of developing the system. Also, there is no FIA specification that even vaguely represents what the FT system is trying to accomplish.

Brian

[Steve Demeter]

Peter,

I know how large the club racing market is not.

But why should the guys paying for everything else pay to develop a system that it would appear that most dop not want so that Flagtropnics can build and sell it to us at a profit.

Essebtially we are being forced to foot the bill for something we do not want and then having to buy it from the manufacturer who will make more money. IN EVERY SANE ECONOMY THE MANUFACTURER DEVELOPS THE PRODUCT TO SATISFY A DEMAND IN THE MARKET!!!!

And as someone with skin ($$$$) in the game I find the entire concept disgusting

[Hardingfv32]

[QUOTE=Steve Demeter;665079]...Essebtially we are being forced to foot the bill for something we do not want and then having to buy it from the manufacturer who will make more money. [QUOTE]

a) The demand for this product is coming from the SCCA Board. By extension from the club members who elect the board.

b) The FT system is well developed, but not for any specific race organization. The development that is required between SCCA and FT is a form of systems integration. It would be my opinion that there is no additional expense being incurred for this integration. Are you aware of any?

c) I would state that there is no ground swell of SCCA competitors who are against the implementation of the FT system, say using Fastrack letters as an example. Do you have data that shows otherwise?

Brian

[Peter Olivola]

Peter,

I know how large the club racing market is not.

But why should the guys paying for everything else pay to develop a system that it would appear that most dop not want so that Flagtropnics can build and sell it to us at a profit.

Essebtially we are being forced to foot the bill for something we do not want and then having to buy it from the manufacturer who will make more money. IN EVERY SANE ECONOMY THE MANUFACTURER DEVELOPS THE PRODUCT TO SATISFY A DEMAND IN THE MARKET!!!!

And as someone with skin ($$$$) in the game I find the entire concept disgusting

This sounds so much like the complaints surrounding adoption of head and neck restraint systems, and helmets and seatbelts.

There are some serious mistakes in your characterizations of things starting with your assumption that most do not want the system. Most didn't want helmets or seatbelts or head and neck restraints when they were first implemented. Next is your implied assertion that racing is a sane economic model. Really? Seriously? You think racing is a sane economic model? Safety features have never been adopted in racing according to sane economic models.

Here's a reality you need to face: We are losing volunteer race staff. It's no longer possible to take action based exclusively on corner worker witness statements. With only two workers on station, each looking in a different direction, we're seeing, at best one useable witness statement. This isn't a complaint against corner workers. It's difficult enough to respond to an on track situation when you're the only one seeing it and first instinct is self preservation followed by covering with a flag.

And it isn't limited to corner workers. We're losing grid workers, pit workers, tech staff, you name a specialty, we're seeing fewer of them including stewards. Anything that improves our ability to conduct events safely in the face of the declining staff situation helps keep us functioning.

And you do want to be able to keep racing, don't you?

As for cost, you might want to think about how much entry fees are going to go up as we lose competitors. When we saw a bump in entries following COVID, the previous declining trend has returned. I've no doubt you'll claim it's because things like Flagtronics are increasing costs. Time to man up. The only way racing continues is if it gets more expensive. That's the brutal truth.

[Steve Demeter]

Peter,
Perhaps I was not clear in my point.

How much did drivers have to invest to have bell, simpson, arai, etal develop helmets.

How much did drivers invest to have willians, simpson, crowe, etal develop safety harnesses?

How much did drivers invest to have Hubbard Downing, simpson etal develop HNR?

Nothing.

Each brought to market a fully developed , certified to applicable standards and functional product

And there were helmets, restraint systems and HNR's that were ready for every use.

Such is not the case with Flagtronics.... YET. As an earlier post stated )not me) it is not quite ready for prime time. What I am advocating is to have FT get it ready for prime time before forcing it down our throats by the CRB and BOD.

The rain light thing is a perfect example: no one wanted to mess with it, but the fact that there wee ready for market, fully developed products made all the difference in the world.

As far a letter writing goes I have found it to be basically useless.

I agree on helping ease the worker shortage, but I think it is important to make the workers feel appreciated. For instance, at the Saturday party I go to every worker I can find and thank them individually for being there so I can race.

[Dave Welsh]

For those who feel FT is not ready for prime time I would like to suggest that, if able, you attend a ChampCar race.

I have worked as a flag marshal for 2 14 hour ChampCar races at Daytona. This system works exceptionally well. ChampCar has used FT for several seasons, they have worked the bugs out.

Not a single Safety Car period during these Daytona races.

All cars are required to have FT installed.



From the SVRA website.

CHARLOTTE (March 15, 2023) — Flagtronics is the newest partner to join SpeedTour events, adding the Trans Am Series presented by Pirelli, Sportscar Vintage Racing Association (SVRA), Formula Regional Americas Championship Powered by Honda (FR Americas) and Formula 4 United States Championship Powered by Honda (F4 U.S.) to the growing list of race series who utilize their system to improve safety on the race track.


“We’re very excited to add Flagtronics as a partner and strategic resource for our race series and events,” said Tony Parella, CEO of SpeedTour. “We’ve spent a lot of time testing their products and have seen the efficiencies they can add to our events first hand—improving response time for emergency vehicles and cutting down on wasted time, and allowing more time for green-flag competition.”



Also, one can review the full race control logs here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SlsQtyoHEO3z2xFXPqY6LL8bX6tUxas6bC30vuOlJbA/edit#gid=1780407568


Scroll to the bottom of the spreadsheet to view the race control logs for each race.



The 2024 ChampCar schedule for the rest of the year is below.




June 15/16 Autobahn Country Club

June 29/30 Sebring

July 13/14 Nelson Ledges

August 17/18 VIR

August 24 Thompson Speedway

September 7/8 Mid Ohio

September 21/22 Harris Hill Raceway

October 5/6 Pittsburgh Race Complex

October 19/20 Road America

October 26/27 Atlanta Motorsports Park

November 30 Dec 1 VIR

[romoman]

For those who feel FT is not ready for prime time I would like to suggest that, if able, you attend a ChampCar race.

I have worked as a flag marshal for 2 14 hour ChampCar races at Daytona. This system works exceptionally well. ChampCar has used FT for several seasons, they have worked the bugs out.

Not a single Safety Car period during these Daytona races.

All cars are required to have FT installed.



From the SVRA website.

CHARLOTTE (March 15, 2023) — Flagtronics is the newest partner to join SpeedTour events, adding the Trans Am Series presented by Pirelli, Sportscar Vintage Racing Association (SVRA), Formula Regional Americas Championship Powered by Honda (FR Americas) and Formula 4 United States Championship Powered by Honda (F4 U.S.) to the growing list of race series who utilize their system to improve safety on the race track.


“We’re very excited to add Flagtronics as a partner and strategic resource for our race series and events,” said Tony Parella, CEO of SpeedTour. “We’ve spent a lot of time testing their products and have seen the efficiencies they can add to our events first hand—improving response time for emergency vehicles and cutting down on wasted time, and allowing more time for green-flag competition.”



Also, one can review the full race control logs here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SlsQtyoHEO3z2xFXPqY6LL8bX6tUxas6bC30vuOlJbA/edit#gid=1780407568


Scroll to the bottom of the spreadsheet to view the race control logs for each race.



The 2024 ChampCar schedule for the rest of the year is below.




June 15/16 Autobahn Country Club

June 29/30 Sebring

July 13/14 Nelson Ledges

August 17/18 VIR

August 24 Thompson Speedway

September 7/8 Mid Ohio

September 21/22 Harris Hill Raceway

October 5/6 Pittsburgh Race Complex

October 19/20 Road America

October 26/27 Atlanta Motorsports Park

November 30 Dec 1 VIR

This is on the internet too https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/ I would suggest talking to a number of the stewards who use it, users in the races, and then decide, not from the press release.

[Peter Olivola]

Peter,
Perhaps I was not clear in my point.

How much did drivers have to invest to have bell, simpson, arai, etal develop helmets.

How much did drivers invest to have willians, simpson, crowe, etal develop safety harnesses?

How much did drivers invest to have Hubbard Downing, simpson etal develop HNR?

Nothing.

Each brought to market a fully developed , certified to applicable standards and functional product

And there were helmets, restraint systems and HNR's that were ready for every use.

Such is not the case with Flagtronics.... YET. As an earlier post stated )not me) it is not quite ready for prime time. What I am advocating is to have FT get it ready for prime time before forcing it down our throats by the CRB and BOD.

The rain light thing is a perfect example: no one wanted to mess with it, but the fact that there wee ready for market, fully developed products made all the difference in the world.

As far a letter writing goes I have found it to be basically useless.

I agree on helping ease the worker shortage, but I think it is important to make the workers feel appreciated. For instance, at the Saturday party I go to every worker I can find and thank them individually for being there so I can race.

Most of the examples you gave of market ready products have something in common: standards promulgated by an independent organization. No such thing exists for Flagtronics. They were also developed in entirely different eras of the sport and I would add, the howls of protest at their adoption were at least as loud.

One of the realities of racing is that cost inflation has always outstripped the overall economy. Some seasons it's about going faster. Some it's about going safer. This one's about operations efficiency and safety. As the number of classes proliferates in Regionals it's becoming increasingly difficult to safely group those classes resulting in a proliferation of race groups. That puts pressure on operations to maintain schedules with less and less time to recover delays. Even with only partial adoption at the Road Atlanta Super Tour, it shortened the time yellow flag time (at an event that is proving to be a yellow flag magnet.)

Tracks aren't charging less rental and the cost of overtime can turn a barely profitable event into a money loser so there's also the economic survival of the sport at stake here.

[mboian90]

I made the mistake/great decision to buy a second racecar. Both are currently under rebuild and racing has therefore been limited for me. I took the opportunity in Feb to do my first ever stint at flagging at the NOLA Super Tour race. It was an amazing experience, there are no better race fans in the world than corner workers. It was also an eye opening experience, I now better understand the concerns from the flagger and race control point of view...

The FT system was used that weekend. I cant speak to the results from in the driver seat, but from the corner station it was easy to use. The one drawback that I saw from a rookie perspective was that it was another thing for me to remember to do during an event. We were lucky to have 3 people for race days at the station (2.5 if you consider my experience level). A typical local yellow call for us was the yellow flagger flagging, the blue flagger on the FT and the 3rd person making the radio call. If that was reduced to 2, my rookie self would have struggled with multiple responsibilities. One of the seasoned workers said "its just something to work into the routine", so likely this is all me.

What I was mostly blown away by was the general lack of respect for the yellow. I am now of the belief that we as the racers are the majority of the problem. The video linked below is from one of the race starts where I was flagging T1. At the race start there were some offs that left a car stuck and the recovery truck was sent out. As the field came around for lap 2, I was waving the crap out of the yellow. The result can be seen in the video (skip to 2:35 for start of lap 2). I was pissed.

Roll the excuses card as you will, "the glare of the sun", "it was in SM", "that guy shouldnt been on the track", ect. That was only one event, I saw multiple across all run groups. I actually left with the opinion that I give up too much time by over slowing in yellow zones. Not a great observation, but as a competitor it is a reality to think about.

Additional barriers to identifying a yellow zone should be looked at as a positive. Having the situation displayed in multiple areas lowers the risk of human error. Malintent or not, there are a lot of close calls that dont need to happen. What I would mostly look forward to with FT is the use of the "code 35" that I believe is used by Champ Car. It would take away some of my angst that there should be more equality on the response to a yellow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GvsRsX9q88

Matt Boian
14 FF

P.S. I was told at my driver school to wave to the corner workers on the cool down lap. I was surprised at how few people actually do that. And I was also surprised by how many come by still at race speed. The open wheel group was one of the worst.

[CheckeredFlag]

<<snip>>P.S. I was told at my driver school to wave to the corner workers on the cool down lap. I was surprised at how few people actually do that. <<snip>>

Off topic, I know, but we actually have a reference to that in one of our YouTube videos:

[Steve Demeter]

Matt I could not agree more about the huge lack of respect for the yellow flag by thee driver community.

Will FT fix that? I do not know. I personally think that if a guy does not see a worker jumping up and down waving the yellow or chooses to ignore to, that he will not respond to a FG.

Remember that we all must have forward facing cameras. I have not heard of these being used to better crack down on those yellow flag ignorers, but it would be a good tool to start with. and it could not be disputed. If it is on your camera, no excuse for missing it

[John Nesbitt]

Matt I could not agree more about the huge lack of respect for the yellow flag by thee driver community.

Will FT fix that? I do not know. I personally think that if a guy does not see a worker jumping up and down waving the yellow or chooses to ignore to, that he will not respond to a FG.

Remember that we all must have forward facing cameras. I have not heard of these being used to better crack down on those yellow flag ignorers, but it would be a good tool to start with. and it could not be disputed. If it is on your camera, no excuse for missing it

I have found that delivering certain and harsh penalties (probation and suspension) does improve flag behavior. The sad truth is that some drivers simply will not obey the rules for the good of those around them. It is only when the consequences land on them that they starting responding. Sad, but true.

A fresh data point: I worked an event this past weekend. A driver was reported for a pass under FCY. When interviewed, he said, "Yes, I passed him. But I waited till I was past the incident before passing." This from a driver with decades of experience. Well, duh, what part of Full Course Yellow do you not understand?

I am more and more convinced that you cannot fix willfully stupid and oblivious. All you can do is deliver consequences.

[DanW]

Laguna, last weekend, we gave a driver a 4 month "Timeout", he then will serve a 3 month probation for an utterly stupid move.

[Steve Demeter]

Brian, Your statement that the drivers are asking for FG through the BOD which is their voice .

I assume that you can cite letters written to the BOD asking for FG that started the ball rolling.

I have searched and can not find any.

Could you point out instances where drivers have asked the BOD by means of letter for FG to be implemented.

As far as being ready for prime time, I cite the comment in an earlier post that FG was causing confusion on starts as the fG operator in Race Control was pressing the green button when the flag fell, telling mistakenly all drivers that the race was on. IRC, on the start the racing may not start until one crosses the SF line. and there are penalties for not following that rule and that we have start judges to enforce it. This is clearly a flaw in a system "ready for prime time".

As I stated earlier I am not necessarily against FG, but I demand, to the extent that my one voice makes, that we have a system that is COMPLETELY developed and debugged, thoroughly tested and ll issues fixed before forced implementation.

And regarding the implementation of other "controversial" safety equipment, I was wearing arm restraints in the 1970's, replacing my belts at an interval in thee early 1980's, and had a HANS in 2001. These were all long before any of them were mandated. So nobody should imply that I am not in favor of improving safety, I simply do not believe that FG will not do that in the present state of development.


OR has common sense totally left our organization?

[John Nesbitt]

Brian, Your statement that the drivers are asking for FG through the BOD which is their voice .

I assume that you can cite letters written to the BOD asking for FG that started the ball rolling.

I have searched and can not find any.

Could you point out instances where drivers have asked the BOD by means of letter for FG to be implemented.

As far as being ready for prime time, I cite the comment in an earlier post that FG was causing confusion on starts as the fG operator in Race Control was pressing the green button when the flag fell, telling mistakenly all drivers that the race was on. IRC, on the start the racing may not start until one crosses the SF line. and there are penalties for not following that rule and that we have start judges to enforce it. This is clearly a flaw in a system "ready for prime time".

As I stated earlier I am not necessarily against FG, but I demand, to the extent that my one voice makes, that we have a system that is COMPLETELY developed and debugged, thoroughly tested and ll issues fixed before forced implementation.

And regarding the implementation of other "controversial" safety equipment, I was wearing arm restraints in the 1970's, replacing my belts at an interval in thee early 1980's, and had a HANS in 2001. These were all long before any of them were mandated. So nobody should imply that I am not in favor of improving safety, I simply do not believe that FG will not do that in the present state of development.


OR has common sense totally left our organization?

By "FG", I assume that you mean "FT"? Or, has the BOD come up with another mandatory purchase?

[cory mcleod]

Received my Flagtronics yesterday. Great communication from the company (Ballenger Motorsports in VA) and fast shipping to Charlotte. The unit is TINY. The only potential issue I see is clearance for the cables attaching to the back. The main harness is very thick. Now that I understand the size of the unit, I see no need for a smaller unit. Some type of low profile connection would make a difference.

[924RACR]

Agreed with the above; I dealt with that by cutting holes in the dash to run them through - easy enough because carbon fibre...