How would you describe your engine if you were to sell it?

[Chris Robson]

This topic has come up in one of the classified sections, where an engine is being described as one builders engine, but it has been "freshened" by someone else. I wanted to start this thread to see if we can have a (civilized) discussion as to how one should describe their engine if they were to sell it.

As I pointed out in the above mention post, many, many engines become akin to "Washington's Axe" whereas everything has been changed so often, is it really still his ax?

To start off, I will provide my view. This is by no means gospel, rather a jumping off point to get the ball rolling. It is also not intended to become the mandatory way of selling an engine. Rather it will help new to the sport and veterans alike have a baseline for understanding an engine's lineage.

So here goes...

Engine One: This engines a purebred, having never been worked on, repaired, or rebuilt by anyone other than the original builder.

Engine Two: This engine has a traceable lineage and started out being built by XXX but the new owner uses YYY and has them go through it "top to bottom" changing items to their specific build standards. This could be recontouring the heads, using a different cam, or crank, reworking the carburetor, etc...By the end of this process, the new owner has a brand new YYY engine.

Engine Three: This is the preverbal "Mutt" Who know who's head it has, or who did the intake. It could have ZZZ head(s) re-done, by who knows how many different builders with XXX's bottomed and YYY's intake/carburetor....you get the point, it is a good donor motor to start your build by, your engine builder. This can never be a Purebred, but if gone through from "top to bottom" by your build and he performs all of his "tricks" it can become Engine Two.

So there's the start... Discuss, compare and contrast. Keep it civil and remember this is not a discussion on the merits of one builder over another, rather how you would classify an engine if you were to sell one.

Cheers,

Chris

[E1pix]

Excellent thread idea, and I read what it references.

Yes, this topic is a bit convoluted. My old friend John Barker (Performance Development & Racing) built killer FF motors in decades past, to great success including Runoffs wins.

John’s also passed on, so if I read an ad stating “Barker motor, with heads and bottom end rebuilt by Ivey,” that to me would be complete information I could trust.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I've always assumed unless I receive it from a builder, it's buyer be ware.

Every car is 'race ready' and every engine is '2 weekends since rebuild'.

Whether a seller outright lies or not, even a fresh engine direct from a builder has a chance of ending itself on lap 2.

So, won't this just provide some sort of false sense of value?

[TimH]

Most of what I see in ads seems a pretty honest pedigree. As mentioned, however, there's absolutely no way to be sure an owner hasn't messed with things since it came from the most recent builder. Or just seriously abused it (I offered to show my AIM data to buyers of my last one, but they couldn't know if it was a complete data set). There's just no guarantee for anything about a race car. Maybe that's why I've never felt someone had taken advantage of me when things broke almost immediately. It seems like they sometimes do that anyway.

[problemchild]

Firstly, it is very bad manners to post negative comments on another's classified post. For pinto lovers to post negative comments on a zetec ad, or kent lovers on a honda ad, is just ignorant. Commenting on asking price, or offering alternate purchasing options, is just rude.

Tangents and sidetracking are not so bad, as they keep moving the thread back to the top, and are helping the seller.
I certainly do not object to that when I am selling.

Clearly this thread was prompted by Nodular's post. It was perfect. He described the engine exactly as it was. If somebody was stupid enough to drive to Dallas and spend $3500 to buy that engine without fully reading the description, then that is their problem. In vintage racing, the engine lineage is very relevant, and referencing the original builder is appropriate. Of course, the original builder may not like it, but he is not selling it, and that is just part of business. Note that I have seen ex-Greg Rice race cars for sale on eBay in Germany that I have not owned in over 30 years. It is a compliment at the end of the day, and I found it quite amusing.

Here is one. I used this car to win the 87 Northeast Division FV Championship, and Canadian FV Championships in 86 and 87. I believe it is still for sale. Dave and Alex do nice work!
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...2021-ground-up

[t walgamuth]

As far as I know my Honda has not had anything done to it except oil and filter changes since the HONDA assembly line. I can say with certainty about my ownership. I believe Phil Leavans, the po would say the same.

[Chris Robson]

I absolutely agree with the "Buyer Beware". What I am hoping is that some basic guidelines for engine descriptions be considered. Every post in this thread has excellent comments and food for thought.The Apexspeed community as a whole is a fantastic group of dedicated racers.

So, let's put this another way. Using the fact that you are buying a used engine, not a brand new from builder QQQQ, What is important, what do you look for, when buying an engine?

Who did the Head(s)?

Who did the intake?

Who did the bottom end?

What constitutes a "complete rebuild vs a "freshening"?

When does said engine become another engine builder's engine? when he stamps the head(s) the block, the intake,
the carb?

Just food for thought. We have no way (other than the sellers word) as to what has, or has not been done and that's not really the debate, but maybe with this thread, we can start to decipher distinctive features of certain engine builder (outside of color, which we know is not a very accurate way of identifying an engine) to help identify their work.

[TimH]

Ok, in response to the "What do you look for" question:

I assume "freshening" means the valves were lapped, things were cleaned up, and that's it.

I don't care who did the head/intake unless it was pretty recent, though the dyno sheet might be interesting if it's from a major builder and documents a unicorn.

Who did the bottom end/valves/pedestals/pistons/rods is less important than who supplied them. The block color is just as informative as the stamp, except that (at least for Ivey) you can at least use the number when contacting the builder for a snapshot of what the motor was like when it left him.

[billtebbutt]

An engine deal isn't really any different than selling/buying a racecar long distance. I've done both, numerous times, very successfully. If you can't do a visual inspection, then ask for references (no, I'm not kidding). Can the seller provide the contact info for the machine shop that has been freshening the engine? Or to who may have owed the engine before him? Does the seller have any legitimate folks in the sport that you can contact that will vouch for him? Where does he race? Is there someone in his racing community that would surely know him/his equipment/reputation that you could independently reach out to? Even if a seller is prepared to lie to you, it doesn't mean that the above-mentioned folks will do the same (in fact, it probably means that they won't!).

I bought my RF 90 from a seller well known on this site but not known to me. Did I ask around a little bit about him? Sure, and he got great reviews. And I couldn't be any happier with the transaction, and he's turned out to MORE than honour his end of the deal because he felt it was the right thing to do.

I sold my March 78B on Apex to a UK buyer. It took months, but it sold on a handful of pictures + my provision of a few racing team proprietor references that have known me for years. Eventually, when time came to transact, the buyer wired me the funds before he left the UK! When he got here, he stepped into the race car trailer, walked around the car once w/o stopping and said "Yep, good to go. Lots of safety wire. Heard your cars were always well-prepped". He also bought my 68 MGB sight unseen in the same transaction.

Interestingly, despite very low time on the FT200, the car spit out the R&P about 3 races into his ownership. He didn't whinge about it - **** happens, and as a previous poster has said, a brand new engine can fail on its first outing.

This stuff isn't that hard. These are not unmitigable risks. BUT, as Mr. Rice has suggested, you take on all that risk when you don't do any homework.

cheers,
BT

[Steve Demeter]

Chris, I think that you have made a great start to standardizing a somewhat open to interpretation topic which could probably avoid future hard feelings.

I also agree with several posters, buyer beware and get the seller to answer specific questions you have before buying.

[EYERACE]

Huh? So there are only three kinds of engines ?
Purebred / Originate from #1 and rebuilt by #2 / Mutt. ??? doubt it....
It can be argued there are two kinds of motors....those engines for sale and those in a car for sale.
So no way a legit engine attached to car and bought by whoever - who has never tracked the car - is sent to 'next'
engine builder who is 'not the original builder' such that is sent to the who engine builder of good repute..... and maybe the head or crank bearings etc. proves to be bad....because it's not the responsibility of the sender nor the rebuilder to know from whence the engine came...one can only guess and the different colors of paint - while a help - can be "disguised"

By the way - your Engine #1 after a few years almost never exists unless you're the original owner of the car too.... because cars for sale travel across the US and people will send engines to local builders often so their shipping charges are less than send away - say an engine bought from Seattle all the way to Quicksilver vs. Ivey....even though they (Seattle) bought the car from someone in upstate New York and the car was shipped from NY to Seattle first before the rebuild.
Engine #2....harder to fake but still possible - again what color(s)
#3 - after long enough all engines are #3.......
...so there's an honor system you propose is the best you can suggest?.....well the same one you propose is already in place
Numbers are kept and recorded by Builders but that doesn't encompass all...........
Ever seen a Log book with block or head numbers in it ?? Not me.
Still in the final analysis it's reputation of the seller (who may or may not be dropping the name of the engine builder properly) as well as Caveat Emptor...which means if it's a zero time dyno engine the buyer should be able to call the Builder

[Dennis McCarthy]

To simplify it all, I assume any used race car or part I purchase need rebuilding. I assume any new race car I buy from England needs rebuilding as well..

[Chris Robson]

I am not suggesting that there are only 3 kinds of engines, rather that you have to start somewhere, so I put them into three groups. I have all three types of engines at the moment, including the "Unicorn" which has never been touched, machined, tampered with and/or worked on by anyone but the original builders business (I can not vouch for who physically worked on the engine when it was at the shop, but it has never in its life gone to anyone else).

What I am asking is how do you define/decide what/who's engine you have?

Do you go by the last rebuild?
Do you go by who's head(s) are on it?
Do you go by a serial number, or stamping?

...or...?

Didn't want to enter into the discussion with my personal belief, but maybe it will help...(probably not)

For arguments sake Engine 1 is an engine that has been built "as new" from one engine builder using all new, or refurbished/seasoned in the case of a block. everything done to it is done by the builder, or selected by the builder as their vendor of choice. (I am not going to get into who builds who's heads for 1600's while the other builds the heads for 2000's) If it is put on the engine from the builder at their shop, it is part of their package. The finished engine always goes back for refresh/rebuild/upgrades to the original builder.

Engine 2 is an engine that could at one point have been an Engine 1, or an Engine 3, but as many have noted, changed hands, states, countries, over time. That engine when purchased by the owner is sent to "their" engine builder for a complete, from the bottom end up rebuild/upgrade/update. Everything is done by "his" builder, including it being painted in said builders color... This engine now becomes that builders engine. If one was to sell this engine, it could be described as being (insert engine builder here) engine with documentation from the previous work done.

...Finally...Engine 3. This, everyone seems to have agreed is a "Frankenstein" engine.

original builder, unknown,

Head(s) from one builder,

block from another.

unknown intake. You get the gist.

Now once you buy it, it becomes your decision as to what to make it, or how far to go with it.

I guess I'm looking for best practices. This is about lineage/history/records/etc...

Once you do buy an engine, what do you do?
How much research do you undertake?
Does it even matter to you?
or do you just ship it off to your builder and have him make it "his own" engine?

[EYERACE]

in general one simply ships engine off to their engine builder and it goes from there.....when the engine you ship to your builder has never been seen by your builder before, it comes back as a #2 or a #3. Your Builder may be able to tell you a little about the engine as they tear it down but that's the best you'll get. Example: Head seems to have marks/numbers and color that seem to identify it as having been from a specific other Builder....but there's no way to know if what your Builder is looking at is only that or was touched by someone else along the way. No Log Book has a specific place for recording engine details but one can do so themselves on the pages. It's really more about the dyno sheet than heritage. A Vintage organization may have required a "Builder's Sheet" attesting to the legitimacy of the engine but who knows who may have laid hands on it later? No astute buyer, who is buying an engine, bothers to think > "Oh so and so seller says the engine is a pure-blood (insert name of shop here) therefore it must be worth more than if it was a #2 or #3." Some blocks and heads have numbers/marks on them but there's no proof of total lineage even from that unless there's a dyno sheet with a date on it.....even then the emptor thing still applies but only slightly less. Example: who in the process of buying an engine, tears it down to see what rods are in it?....sure as heck the seller is not going to let a prospective buyer tear it down much at all, if at all, before buying it.

In summary, that's why there's a section here at ApexSpeed "Retail Business Feedback"

[jasonahathaway]

When describing my car engine for sale, I will try to provide potential buyers with as much information as possible about the engine's specifications, performance, and condition. Here are some key details I might want to include:


Type of Engine: Indicate whether it's a gasoline or diesel engine, as well as the size and configuration.

Mileage: Provide the total mileage on the engine.

Performance: Share information on the engine's horsepower, torque, and any modifications or upgrades that have been made to improve performance.

Condition: Describe the engine's overall condition, including any maintenance or repairs that have been done. Mention any issues or defects the engine may have, such as oil leaks or a need for a rebuild.

History: Share information about the engine's history, including whether it has been rebuilt or replaced, and any records of maintenance or repairs.

Compatibility: Indicate which car models and years the engine is compatible with.