Engine Manufacturer

[AlbertaSpeedShop]

I don't see anything in the rules spelling out what it is to be the engine manufacturer?

Can someone pull a "John Britten" in this class?

[Randy Cook]

My interpretation would be that you would have to complete the motorcycle too and then take out the engine. (And don't forget to write the workshop manual.) Knock yourself out!

[AlbertaSpeedShop]

Thanks Randy

[ghickman]

I don't see anything in the rules spelling out what it is to be the engine manufacturer?

Can someone pull a "John Britten" in this class?

The GCR doesn't go into specifics as to what constitutes a 1,000cc 4 cycle Motorcycle engine. However assuming this would be a new build engine after year 2014 it would then need supporting dyno data and given to the CRB for approval.

I don't see any Smokey Yunick stuff happening there. The CRB would shut you down in a New York minute. They're already all over our sh^t about the Kawasaki ZX10R Gen4.

Funny this thread came up. I once contemplated this very thing, something you can seriously ponder when you own a well equipped and modern cnc machine shop.

It would be fun writing your own shop manual, mine would be about 6 pages long.

[Swift17]

The "Battle of the Twins" Daytona winner is probably too dated (despite its' excellent for 1995 engineering) at this point to be successful BUT, I have often wonder as a lifelong Ducati rider how a "DESMO" would do. I recognize the possible "packaging" issues with its 90 degree design but the torgue and crank design as well as the narrow engine with the ability to really "Coke Bottle" the back end of the car like a inline engine .................

[AlbertaSpeedShop]

I'm pretty sure you caught that I more meant how he did his own sand castings. There's apparently only one running Britten so you're never getting that 1L motor. However;

How far would you have to go? Reuse Gixxer internals and head just cast your own block?

Dimension your new block around the "Shaved heads"

Does that suddenly open your ECU possibilities? Maybe BMW instead then

Construct some variable intakes and drop it back in the gixxer donor bike for a "new york minute". Take photos, would you need video of you driving it? "Don't worry about that GSXR branding there on the tank it's not a gixxer motor"

Write your service manual about all the fancy things you ever wanted to have on a motor and how to service it

Show up on race day .... and ..... ohhh won't let me run.

But if you were inspired to get some fancy non-poppet valves working would that be going far enough to have earned a spot? Or am I still ruining the class?

That Smokey guy sounds like an awesome competitor. Pushes you to be at his level. Inspires your creativity through your utter frustration with what he'll show up running next. I like it

[ghickman]

Show up on race day .... and ..... ohhh won't let me run.

The reality is that it would never get past the CRB. It's written right in the rules anything built after 2014 is subject to approval with supporting dyno data. If you've got some frankenmotor that's a beast that you are naming XYZ they're going to look at it and laugh....if it did get past you'd have a small group of drivers complaining and we'd be back to same place we are at now.

I truly like your enthusiasm we need like 10 or 20 of you in this class. Originally it was this type thinking that got this class started....most of the players are gone now so it's gotten a bit bland.

[AlbertaSpeedShop]

Oh okay I see.

It's not simply dyno it and we'll get back to you with a restrictor or rev limit. It's dyno it and we can say no even though its an open engine class

[ghickman]

Oh okay I see.

It's not simply dyno it and we'll get back to you with a restrictor or rev limit. It's dyno it and we can say no even though its an open engine class

Well you've touched on a very grey area of the GCR. The rules stipulate the engine has to be stock and stock parts used and stock specifications.

So that said if you were technically the engine manufacturer and said these are my specifications then?? See where I'm going with this.

The engines aren't technically open, they must be stock. But stock for manufacturer XYZ and you happen to be XYZ manufacturer.

I guarantee this would cause a poop storm like none other.

I believe at the very beginning of the GCR it states "if it doesn't say you can do it then you can't" or something to that wording. That statement always made me laugh. Tell that to Smokey Yunick, dude loved gaming the rules.

[Jnovak]

Oh okay I see.

It's not simply dyno it and we'll get back to you with a restrictor or rev limit. It's dyno it and we can say no even though its an open engine class

It is not an open engine class.

[Daryl DeArman]

I sense a rule change soon disguised as an E&O correction.

The GCR says: "motorcycle-based 4 cycle up to 1000cc"

Silent on makes or production volume requirements.


Later the GCR says: "-Competitor wishing to use any engines newer than 2014 model year must supply dynamometer data to the CRB to be approved for use."


There are tens of thousands of custom motorcycles in the USA. All you have to do is say this motor came out of my custom "2007 XYZ-built 1000cc bike"...at least for that month. I'm guessing next month there could be a competition adjustment putting a 10mm restrictor on that beast


FWIW the current F500 MC-engine rules start off with this beauty:

"A. Mass produced water-cooled, 4 cylinder, 4-cycle motorcycle
engines up to 600cc are allowed as per spec line (end of section)."


One could argue the writers of the F500 class MC rules had different intent...or perhaps a little more foresight. Alternatively, one could argue that the FB rules are clearly more open in their intent. Motor has to be "stock" but who defines what stock is on a production run of 1 unit

I would suggest that the Smokey in you runs the motor only in tons of private test days and unveil it at the RunOffs before they slap a competition adjustment on it.

Like I said, I sense an E&O rule change coming.

[ghickman]

I sense a rule change soon disguised as an E&O correction.

The GCR says: "motorcycle-based 4 cycle up to 1000cc"

Silent on makes or production volume requirements.


Later the GCR says: "-Competitor wishing to use any engines newer than 2014 model year must supply dynamometer data to the CRB to be approved for use."


There are tens of thousands of custom motorcycles in the USA. All you have to do is say this motor came out of my custom "2007 XYZ-built 1000cc bike"...at least for that month. I'm guessing next month there could be a competition adjustment putting a 10mm restrictor on that beast


FWIW the current F500 MC-engine rules start off with this beauty:

"A. Mass produced water-cooled, 4 cylinder, 4-cycle motorcycle
engines up to 600cc are allowed as per spec line (end of section)."


One could argue the writers of the F500 class MC rules had different intent...or perhaps a little more foresight. Alternatively, one could argue that the FB rules are clearly more open in their intent. Motor has to be "stock" but who defines what stock is on a production run of 1 unit

I would suggest that the Smokey in you runs the motor only in tons of private test days and unveil it at the RunOffs before they slap a competition adjustment on it.

Like I said, I sense an E&O rule change coming.

Daryl once again you've nailed it. I can see the letters to the CRB flying out now.

[AlbertaSpeedShop]

There's still lots of single cylinder development to get the Bishop Rotary Valves to work. Company went under so finding seals is the issue.

The valves deserve a moment in the sun and all the RPM and valve longevity talk on here .... with rotary valves its bottom end longevity issues instead. And you have the RPM to buzz people by on the straights so you shouldn't HAVE to get close to the bottom end limit.

While on the SAE team i was chassis, suspension, steering. To learn more about powertrain i started to CAD a motor from scratch trying not to copy a motor but to work out dimensions so i understood better what's going on and why. It would be amazing to get my hands on some 2618 aluminum and make it

Companies like Ezcast and Exone can lend you their expertise on runner locations and foundry work as they cast your designs for you from 3D printed sand for about $1000/sqft last i asked around. But these days there's all kinds of DIY sites to make a PLA 3d printer. Which can be used like lost wax casting. How much accuracy do you need when you'll be machining afterwards anyway. 1/8" is fine you can design around knowing you might be out to lunch. But it's a 3D print and investment casting process so you shoukd acheive much better than that

[Mike B]

One could argue the writers of the F500 class MC rules had different intent...or perhaps a little more foresight.

Or perhaps a lot of hindsight. The original F1000 rules committee toyed with the idea of a minimum production # such that it would include the big four and preclude Ducati, Aprilia, etc. The problem was production #s weren't readily available.
Using that same hindsight, I guess we could've chosen a low # like 3,000 units but that would only eliminate a Scott Tucker-like effort.

[reidhazelton]

I guess we could've chosen a low # like 3,000 units but that would only eliminate a Scott Tucker-like effort.

He would just have made 3,001 then.

[AlbertaSpeedShop]

The above mentioned "Mass produced 4-stroke" gets rid of the funny business but since its been 8 years?? Now for F1000 and no ones done the Ducati Aprilia thing you're worried about i wouldn't exclude them.

Since this seems to be a spending concern. What about leaving engines on the open side of legislation but a cost cap? Reward people who are creative with lowcost techniques? But gotta be careful with resale acting as a credit. Downside of this is you double guess every purchase you make. How to stop someone gaming a cost cap by buying things in his wifes name for market price and then buying from her for $1?

I donno. Me i want the freedom to explore but use restrictors and rev limits to keep em at 200bhp

[Jnovak]

The above mentioned "Mass produced 4-stroke" gets rid of the funny business but since its been 8 years?? Now for F1000 and no ones done the Ducati Aprilia thing you're worried about i wouldn't exclude them.

Since this seems to be a spending concern. What about leaving engines on the open side of legislation but a cost cap? Reward people who are creative with lowcost techniques? But gotta be careful with resale acting as a credit. Downside of this is you double guess every purchase you make. How to stop someone gaming a cost cap by buying things in his wifes name for market price and then buying from her for $1?

I donno. Me i want the freedom to explore but use restrictors and rev limits to keep em at 200bhp

Get yourself Ducati Desmosedici for about $70K

Or better yet a Honda RC213V for $184K

Remove the engines, sell all the bits. I am sure that you will have no more than $100K in the deal by the time you have the ecu, oil system, exhaust etc figured out.

Or better yet, build your own complete motor and come and race in FB. For sure we will see you in the next year or so.

[Jnovak]

I sense a rule change soon disguised as an E&O correction.

The GCR says: "motorcycle-based 4 cycle up to 1000cc"


"A. Mass produced water-cooled, 4 cylinder, 4-cycle motorcycle
engines up to 600cc are allowed as per spec line (end of section)."

One could argue the writers of the F500 class MC rules had different intent...or perhaps a little more foresight. Alternatively, one could argue that the FB rules are clearly more open in their intent. Motor has to be "stock" but who defines what stock is on a production run of 1 unit

I would suggest that the Smokey in you runs the motor only in tons of private test days and unveil it at the RunOffs before they slap a competition adjustment on it.

Like I said, I sense an E&O rule change coming.

Note that in the F500 rules engine table that only 3 engine brands are allowed.
Suzuki
Honda
Yamaha

Kawasaki not allowed because they have numerous "600" engines that are 636cc displacement. Too easy to "accidentally" put the wrong one in.

The FB rules already define specific engines and model years in an engine table and this table can be edited or adjusted on a monthly basis.

Bring your dyno data and make sure that it is from a recognized dyno provider.

[Daryl DeArman]

Note that in the F500 rules engine table that only 3 engine brands are allowed.
Suzuki
Honda
Yamaha

Kawasaki not allowed because they have numerous "600" engines that are 636cc displacement. Too easy to "accidentally" put the wrong one in.

Aware of that and the logic behind it.

The FB rules already define specific engines and model years in an engine table and this table can be edited or adjusted on a monthly basis. Bring your dyno data and make sure that it is from a recognized dyno provider.

I disagree. Unless you consider "ALL" to define specific engines and model years.

This is often an issue when a person knows the intent behind a rule, but doesn't know how the rule actually reads. The FB rules don't define specific engines and model years in an engine table. There is a table that defines the various restrictor/engine combinations and under makes/models of engines it says "ALL"...no reference to any limitation of manufacturer.

Like I said, I see an E&O rule change on the horizon. Or a "rule is adequate as written" attitude and the class gets "Tuckered" at the Runoffs at Indy or maybe it will be referred to as "Hickmanned" .

[Jnovak]

Aware of that and the logic behind it.



I disagree. Unless you consider "ALL" to define specific engines and model years.

This is often an issue when a person knows the intent behind a rule, but doesn't know how the rule actually reads. The FB rules don't define specific engines and model years in an engine table. There is a table that defines the various restrictor/engine combinations and under makes/models of engines it says "ALL"...no reference to any limitation of manufacturer.

Like I said, I see an E&O rule change on the horizon. Or a "rule is adequate as written" attitude and the class gets "Tuckered" at the Runoffs at Indy or maybe it will be referred to as "Hickmanned" .

What I said was that the table can be edited on a monthly basis.

[Daryl DeArman]

All you have to do is say this motor came out of my custom "2007 XYZ-built 1000cc bike"...at least for that month. I'm guessing next month there could be a competition adjustment putting a 10mm restrictor on that beast

What I said was that the table can be edited on a monthly basis.

Yes, I tossed that out there in my initial post.

What you said is right here:

The FB rules already define specific engines and model years in an engine table and this table can be edited or adjusted on a monthly basis.

Emphasis added is mine.

The table does not define specific engines and models it says "ALL"

[Jnovak]

Yes, I tossed that out there in my initial post.

What you said is right here:

Please see Daryls post above. I cannot get it into this post ... Jay

Emphasis added is mine.

The table does not define specific engines and models it says "ALL"

Daryl, you may be right, but I am not certain. Does that ALL mean ALL ENGINES, AS IN EVERY ENGINE BEING PRODUCED NOW OR HAS EVER BEEN PRODUCED IN THE PAST? OR DOES IT MEAN ALL THAT ARE LISTED? Personally I think it means all on the list. Why list any specific engines if you mean all as in the totality of ALL?

My main point is that the CRB can adjust the table on an every month basis as they think is required.

[ChristopherBernard]

Too bad every class seems to gravitate towards a spec class.
There are so many ways someone can be innovative .
An ingenious performance advantage should be encouraged. Makes for interesting diversity among race cars.
Like the quote on Arthur Mallocks shop wall supposedly said "The completion begins when the regulations are delivered".

[Daryl DeArman]

Does that ALL mean ALL ENGINES, AS IN EVERY ENGINE BEING PRODUCED NOW OR HAS EVER BEEN PRODUCED IN THE PAST? OR DOES IT MEAN ALL THAT ARE LISTED? Personally I think it means all on the list. Why list any specific engines if you mean all as in the totality of ALL?

I "believe" the intent was all that were listed. However, now there is no list at all. So, I default back to my typical rules interpreter mode and say "I don't know what in the hell the intent of the rule is, I only know what the rule says. Say what you mean and mean what you say."

[Jnovak]

I "believe" the intent was all that were listed. However, now there is no list at all. So, I default back to my typical rules interpreter mode and say "I don't know what in the hell the intent of the rule is, I only know what the rule says. Say what you mean and mean what you say."

Your right Daryl. I confused the old rule with the new rule.

Here is the link for those who have not seen it. The BOD will vote on it at the Convention which starts Jan 23, 2016 I believe.

http://cdn.growassets.net/user_files...pdf?1450468295

[AlbertaSpeedShop]

Daryl;

Are you saying, because it says "ALL" ... show up with a dyno print and your one off motor and you meet the rules and its up to the CRB to ban your one off motor next month?

[Jnovak]

Daryl;

Are you saying, because it says "ALL" ... show up with a dyno print and your one off motor and you meet the rules and its up to the CRB to ban your one off motor next month?

No, read the engine section in the GCR.

[Daryl DeArman]

Daryl;

Are you saying, because it says "ALL" ... show up with a dyno print and your one off motor and you meet the rules and its up to the CRB to ban your one off motor next month?

I am saying the rule will likely get changed before you even get something on the dyno. I believe leaving out specific manufactures' engines is an Error and Omission.

The thing with the class, and some others, are competition adjustments. If you like to tinker, it allows you to, but don't think you are going to be able to bring a gun to a knife fight 2 months in a row.

As to the dyno sheet requirement....that's only required on engines from model years 2015 and newer. I am sure the custom made one-off motorcycle based 4-cycle engine came stock in the 2014 ASS Special

[J_JerryP1]

my apologies for reviving a 4 year old thread but, being as technology has advanced i thought to ask about another engine. Im looking to get into FB but want my own car and a different engine. If the rules state the engine must be stock and i feel i already have my answer but since its kind of a contradiction on the wording, the Kawasaki H2 996cc supercharged engine, I mean its stock it came that way right.

[Peter Olivola]

4. Engines
A. Motorcycle-based 4-cycle up to 1000cc.
B. Engine components (including cylinder heads and blocks) must remain stock, except as specifically
permitted in these rules. No material may be removed from any engine component, except as specifically
permitted in these rules. Valve jobs are permitted, but the valve seat diameter must not be
changed. The competitor must present, on demand, an original factory manual for the specific engine
make, model and year to allow compliance verification.
C. The stock or factory racing ECU shall be used. The ECU fuel and ignition maps may be changed.
Devices that modify inputs to the ECU (e.g., Power Commander) may be used. Stand-alone aftermarket
ECUs are not permitted.
D. Turbochargers and superchargers are prohibited.

[EACIII]

Smokey read the stock rules as a "stock" Ford valve was legal, even if being used in a Chevy motor

[JerryH]

FYI.........the North American Formula 1000 Championship has moved to SCCAPRO sanction......running with Formula Race Promotions. F1000 can and will grow at the pro level! Since announcing the move to pro, we are getting a lot more interest in the series. We have 21 cars registered for the series so far this year! Check out northamf1000.com for more details.

The series is using FB rules as of June 2018 (to avoid the throttle body/ecu controversy from the 2018 runoffs).but we are no longer subject to the crb rules interpretations. That task now falls to our series staff.

Be advised the series will be enforcing pure stock engine rules....,.including the throttle body and ecu that came with the bike from which the engine was taken. If you could order the bike with a "factory racing ecu" installed ......not one added after the fact.....then that engine/ecu combo is legal.

So......forget any wild engine tricks.....and yes we are considering min production numbers to keep the Tucker types from driving up the cost by building something special.

We are looking at the overall health of the class......and keeping cost down is part of that for most car owners.

F1000 is not a spec class. You can build whatever you want......as long as you use a stock bike engine. That has allowed many different chassis to be built. There is more variety in F1000 than any other formula class.....except possibly FV.

If you want to play with engine development, you can run your FB in FA or go run P1 or P2. F1000 is not the class for that.

Jerry Hodges
North American Formula 1000 Championship
JDR Race Cars
636-399-7060

[Daryl DeArman]

So......forget any wild engine tricks.....and yes we are considering min production numbers to keep the Tucker types from driving up the cost by building something special.

Good idea. Wondering how you are going to obtain production volume numbers by model and year? I'm sure they've got to be out there somewhere.

[JerryH]

Sales numbers are available. Can use those if need be.

No plans to do anything this year.

Jerry