Switching from a Radical to a Formula car...

[jmwright]

Hello again everyone!

I'm starting to plan for the 2019 season and am considering switching to a formula car to run in the SCCA SFR region. I apologize if this has already been covered but my search-fu appears to be weak.

I currently own a Radical SR3. This past year, I ran about a dozen HPDE events and a couple races in the Radical Cup. While I love the Radical, it is not a cheap car to keep happy and I don't think I can swing a whole season of the Radical Cup financially - by the time everything is added up it's ringing in at aroud $15k per race. I currently work with a pro support team and even for a NASA event, it's looking like about $6000+ for a weekend. I'm cringing writing all that out but it's true, it's a very expensive car to keep on track.

This all leads me to this - I want to continue racing something reasonably fast, ideally purpose-built and with some semblance of aero, without spending a mortgage per season. I have taken a look at the entry lists for the SFR region and it looks like FM, FC and FE are all good options for me - good competition, reasonable cost of a car, and I should be able to find one I can physically fit in (6'3"/240lbs). Some weekends seem to lean heavily to one of those three classes but there appears to be a reasonable mix of all of the above, which makes it a bit harder to choose.

As far as licensing goes, I have a NASA license, SCCA regional license, and a Pirelli World Challenge license, so I think I'm good to go there.

Questions:

• How do you find running this sort of thing by yourself? I have a few buddies and a very understanding wife who all want to help out, and we are not mechanically clueless, BUT this would be the first purpose-built racer that I've worked on. We have a tow vehicle, garage space and I am budgeting for a tools, trailer and spares as well.
• FM/FE/FC guys, what is your operating budget like? Is the spreadsheet that is floating around reasonably accurate? It claims $1000-1600 per weekend in operational cost which seems almost too good to be true.
• Is there any reason you'd want to choose FE, FC or FM over the other? FE attracts me because of the apparent ease of support, but I am a bit gunshy with the coming FE2 refresh. FC and FM both seem like good options - are there any pitfalls there I should know about?

I am sure I am missing some factors here. Other random advice is welcome.

Thank you in advance for any guidance you can provide!

[Jamesbe]

I had a radical then bought an FE. Well it's not really and FE it's the same chassis but ld200 and zetec so kind of a hybrid.

Anywho.

Yes it's way cheaper to run the FE. I'm running similar times in my FE than I did in my older SR3. The newer SR3s are faster though.

I bought the car last year and ran 6 races and some practice. So far only cost me oil gas and tires.

Zero issues.

YMMV but so far seems to cost less to run.

I also find it easier to work on solo than the SR3 which was a little harder to remove panels and such.

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

[Steve Demeter]

A well set up and driven will beat a radical for grins and thrills every time. Compare your Radical to your street car for sort of an idea. The FC will be much more responsive.

As far as costs go. If you do your own work it can be pretty cheap to run as long as you do not crash it . The Pinto engine with the good rods and pistons is pretty bulletproof if not abused (run out of oil, rev to stupid levels, overheat and the like). Many guys run used tires at the regional level (ask Averill) and do quite well. My biggest single expense for a given weekend is the entry fee. And you do not have to have Jay Ivey or Sandy rebuild your motors every season. I did my own for a number of years. Just make sure to get someone who knows how to help you the first time or two. Lots of guys will put 20 to 30 hours on a Pinto.

And FC cars good ones can be had rather inexpensively these days. Your $1600 for a do it yourself weekend should be more than plenty

[Jamesbe]

Yeah sr3 feels more like a light sedan. While formula car is a new level of responsiveness.



Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

[Lotus7]

Hopefully not too much off on a tangent, but wow, $15k/race to run a Radical you already own?
What are the expensive consumable aspects of the radical if I may ask?
thx

[chrisw52]

Here's a Nice FC car. That's what I would get if I were in the market. Bonus points because it's near by in Morgan Hill.

With the FC car you can run the Pacific F2000 series too. Lots of good turn out for the FC cars here on the west coast too.

https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...451-RF99-Zetec

[jmwright]

Hopefully not too much off on a tangent, but wow, $15k/race to run a Radical you already own?
What are the expensive consumable aspects of the radical if I may ask?
thx

For my car, with the team I was running with in that series, the breakdown was roughly:

• Event fee - $3k
• Tires - 3 sets at 2k a pop - $6k
• For me last time, a couple starter motors at $100 a pop... whoops
• Trackside support, transportation, etc - the rest

Those three sets of tires would be absolutely wrecked by the end of the weekend.

[jmwright]

Here's a Nice FC car. That's what I would get if I were in the market. Bonus points because it's near by in Morgan Hill.

With the FC car you can run the Pacific F2000 series too. Lots of good turn out for the FC cars here on the west coast too.

https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...451-RF99-Zetec

Wow, that is literally on my way to work. I might have to stop by and have a look. Thank you!

[jmwright]

Some great information in this thread so far - going to digest it and pop back later tonight. Thanks to all who replied!

[Jamesbe]

Tires ... well depends on your goals. You can run a set per session or a set a season.

FC tires are cheaper than radical tires at least.

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

[SStadel]

Why an FE? Why not just buy an FE2?

[TimH]

Putting in a word for CF, even cheaper and still loads of fun - just no aero.

One thing that's important for any formula car is a waist-high stand, preferably with wheels. Service with that will be a night/day difference from your Radical, and the pro shop can still help you with the more challenging tasks.

[Lotus7]

For my car, with the team I was running with in that series, the breakdown was roughly:

• Event fee - $3k
• Tires - 3 sets at 2k a pop - $6k
• For me last time, a couple starter motors at $100 a pop... whoops
• Trackside support, transportation, etc - the rest

Those three sets of tires would be absolutely wrecked by the end of the weekend.

Thx for the reply.

$6,000 / weekend for tires ?!?!; holy **** , what brand? Even our FA series is 'only' $3500 for 2 sets/weekend ....

you're going to love the less expensive open wheel racing experience

[problemchild]

if nothing else, pick a class with cheaper tires.

Unless you're really really fast, you won't use more than 2 sets per event in any of those classes, and probably one.

[phantomjock]

Greetings -
I note you have only 16 posts, so there is a fair chance you haven't come across Holmberg's spreadsheet of "operational costs":
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

It's pretty comprehensive. You'll quickly get an idea of costs and can compare to your Radical experience. Hotels, travel, and track fees don't get any smaller, but...

I add my random pitch for the slower (than a Radical/P1/P2) Spec Racer Fords. I'm personally running an antique with all Renault motor as a SPU, but the Gen2s and Gen3s make up a sizable field. And the car is often more welcome at track days than open-wheelers. Now, I'm a formula-wanna-be guy, but for now am settled in with this.

Cheers - Jim

[starfmguy]

There are several Formula Mazda's for sale in the $16-18K range, with Drummond sealed (=legal) engines and decent packages, spare wheels etc. And they are spec, all the same except for some optional details (check for aluminum calipers, double adj shocks, etc).

Formula Car Challenge is a great series to run, based out of Sonoma with WorldSpeed Motorsports & usually gets a good field of FM's. They race at Thunderhill, Sonoma, Laguna, Portland, and down south (Buttonwillow, Fontana etc.).

Of course I am prejudiced, but I have raced these cars for a long time & can generally maintain it myself. Pro help is always good, see Eric Purcell at EFM Racing in Sonoma. Engines can go several seasons, I have gone up to 9 seasons & nearly 100 races, on an engine, although that is unusual (& I am cheap!). (It still ran good, just got a little bit 'soft'). I won the Runoffs at Indy with a 2 season old engine and finished 4th at Sonoma (second fastest race lap) with a 3 year old engine (before I was 4 rpm over at impound... totally my fault).

If you keep the car in good shape, the main race expenses are normal stuff, like tires, entry, motel, fuel, food etc. The Goodyear tires are pretty good & can be used a couple of events, but at the pointy end you will want new tires. Be realistic: entry fee and new tires are typically about $1,800, so then add up the additional expenses. And the other guys are always willing to help. It is a good group of guys.

I still think these cars are the best bang & speed for the buck. Yes, they use an H-pattern 5 speed gearbox instead of sequential & the aerodynamics look a little outdated, but like any race car - if you can drive, it goes pretty good! They are good, sturdy race cars.

Give Eric Purcell a call in Sonoma for some good advice, what to look for & he can advise you on inspecting a car to buy, etc. Also see FormulaCarChallenge.com.

Mostly, Have FUN !!!

[starfmguy]

Also, don't forget to see Moses Smith, the Formula Mazda dealer, manufacturer, parts supplier, based out of Texas.

Formulamazda.com

You can basically get any part for the car, as he keeps a great inventory, & remember - they are all the same.

[ayseven]

JamesBe hit some good points. The Radical is exponentially easier to drive than my Formula Renault, possibly because of the paddle shifting on the Radical I tried. Loads of fun, but the experience was different. The formula car needs to be DRIVEN, or you will be at the back, whereas the Radical is more forgiving. Being able to do most things myself at the track is huge, having had a Van Diemen Sports Racer before. I never have any crew, and if I start early enough, I can get belted up by myself - It works for me.

[jrh3]

For my car, with the team I was running with in that series, the breakdown was roughly:

• Event fee - $3k
• Tires - 3 sets at 2k a pop - $6k
• For me last time, a couple starter motors at $100 a pop... whoops
• Trackside support, transportation, etc - the rest

Those three sets of tires would be absolutely wrecked by the end of the weekend.

About $50 per minute of track time? Wow

[TrackBrat]

Another route you might want to look at is Spec Racer Ford, especially the Gen 3. I am not sure what the size of fields for Formula cars are out in your area but I know SRF has good numbers. I am currently racing Gen 2 srf and love it...even if I have only done my drivers school and two individual regional races, but it was a blast. The Gen 3 has really good speed with the new motor and costs are pretty reasonable, at least anything sound reasonable compared to what your weekends were costing.

[Terrenzio]

A lot of FM drivers run it on their own, maybe even the majority of them, also an easy car for someone your size to fit in, and more importantly strap yourself in to. Good fields in NorCal. You can likely sell it down the road for something close to the purchase price if or when the time comes. Downside of course is that it's a dated design but as was said earlier it's probably the best bang for the buck among aero Formula cars.

Tires about $1200
maybe a new set of front brake pads every third weekend, depends on the track
$200 weekend for gas (some guys run pump gas which would halve that amount).
since all the cars are the same your competitors might have a spare part if needed.

[CGOffroad]

Questions:

• How do you find running this sort of thing by yourself? I have a few buddies and a very understanding wife who all want to help out, and we are not mechanically clueless, BUT this would be the first purpose-built racer that I've worked on. We have a tow vehicle, garage space and I am budgeting for a tools, trailer and spares as well.
• FM/FE/FC guys, what is your operating budget like? Is the spreadsheet that is floating around reasonably accurate? It claims $1000-1600 per weekend in operational cost which seems almost too good to be true.
• Is there any reason you'd want to choose FE, FC or FM over the other? FE attracts me because of the apparent ease of support, but I am a bit gunshy with the coming FE2 refresh. FC and FM both seem like good options - are there any pitfalls there I should know about?

1) I have a Kent powered FF and a Pinto powered FC that I maintain mostly myself. I don't have a lathe, mill, or shop press. So, any of my tasks that require these tools go to a local race prep shop that we have here in Phoenix. My experience is that working on my cars is a continual learning experience. As you start pushing the car more and more, different aspects of the car start becoming 'the thing' to learn about, so you can adjust/modify/fix. Having a good knowledgeable resource that can field your questions is a big bonus. Also, there is a wealth of information on this website for whichever type formula car you end up with.

2) Out of the 3 cars you have listed here I would think they are all gonna have similar operating costs per weekend. FC tires may be a few bucks cheaper due to being just a bit smaller than FE and FM. But, costs are close enough that you can call that about the same. You should be able to get a good race weekend out of a set of tires and then do a few sessions of test. Tires are gonna be between $900 and $1500 depending on tire mfgr and model of car you select.

3) A) Your body size may be a factor that steers you between one model or class of car than another. Before you make a decision and fall in love with ANY formula car, find a way to get in one and see how you fit. The car 'fitting' is a real deal with formula cars!!
B) FM and FC use H pattern gear boxes. The FE and FE2 are sequential. Some people that are on a 'driving path' want experience with a certain type of shifting. If your driving career is heading in one direction or another, the type gear box and shifting may be of importance to you.
C) If you are going to maintain your own formula car, you are going to HAVE to service the gearbox regularly. I was nervous about dealing with the gearbox in the beginning, and now I think that this is one of coolest things about these cars! Don't panic about this. There are service manuals and 'how to' documentation for whichever car and gear box you get. Since you are planning to buy a model of car that has other similar models in your area, you should be able to find another racer to help walk you through a gear change or gear box service the first time.
D) Decide from the beginning what type of gas you are going to run in the car. Pump gas will have ethanol in it. Race fuel or AvGas will NOT have ethanol. Some gas stations sell Non-ethanol unleaded fuel. There are tons of discussion on Apex, and any other racing website about ethanol. Understand why you DO want ethanol in your tank, or why you DO NOT want ethanol in your tank.

[SStadel]

For Fe/FE2 the new spec Hoosier tires are $776 a set, plus shipping and mounting and balancing, of course. I have been using the same fuel for years. 91 Octane with no ethanol. We got better mileage than others using ethanol based fuel and although we still pump out after every weekend, we're not as concerned about the ethanol destroying the fuel cell. Ii know that getting this fuel can be difficult for some. I get 500 gallons at a time, but I'm running as many as 6 cars. I think I was paying $3.XX per gallon, but that's when prices were higher.

Regarding the transmission. Someone above state that you will need to do trans maintenance. While that is true for the FM and the Elite in the FE, the new Sadev in the FE2 is sealed. The only maintenance done is changing the gear lube after every weekend. I'm trying to find an outlet for the used lube as it looks like new when it comes out. Sadev has said the box should be opened up after 10,000 KM, or about 6,200 miles. Typically that would be around three seasons. Another reason I mentioned buying an FE2 above.

[Fmracerbob]

While the mileage between rebuilds is high, the parts for the motor are becoming harder to get. The cost of a rebuild has gone up over the last few seasons, running as much as $8,000 in some cases. Of course part of that is the fact each motor is built to within a couple of HP so Daryl often has to swap parts around between motors to make sure they are all equal, which is extra labor.

[SV@RHC]

I have been racing FC in the San Francisco region for a few years now. Its been a great group to run with. You'll find a lot of support between the competitors and they often will lend a hand or parts in order to get you to the grid. I do all my own prep work and find that I can keep the costs down within reason.

Most all of us Run Van Diemens so there are plenty of parts available at the track And If not Shipping is no worse than a couple days out.We will be running Pirellis this year as its the spec tire for the WCF2000 series. Pirellis will last a full weekend and still have some left for a track day. Good tire at a reasonable cost.

You will find them a bit tight. I would highly suggest finding one and sitting in it. There are some smokin deals out there locally.

Like I have said before, If the government ever found out how much fun they are to drive, they would make them illegal or tax the hell out of them.

Hope to see you out there
Scott

[MotorCade]

I'm another that is heavily biased but I chose FC. Speed/dollar is very good, the opportunity to learn setup is critical to success, and there is still some room in the rules for a little creativity. I like seeing different makes/models on track.

There are good reasons to look at FM or FE/FE2 as well. Any of these classes are going to be good bang for the buck. Choose first for larger class sizes in the region you'll be racing, and after that, choose with your heart. And make sure you can fit... Some chassis are smaller than others, especially within FC.

[jrh3]

1) I have a Kent powered FF and a Pinto powered FC that I maintain mostly myself. I don't have a lathe, mill, or shop press. So, any of my tasks that require these tools go to a local race prep shop that we have here in Phoenix. My experience is that working on my cars is a continual learning experience. As you start pushing the car more and more, different aspects of the car start becoming 'the thing' to learn about, so you can adjust/modify/fix. Having a good knowledgeable resource that can field your questions is a big bonus. Also, there is a wealth of information on this website for whichever type formula car you end up with.

2) Out of the 3 cars you have listed here I would think they are all gonna have similar operating costs per weekend. FC tires may be a few bucks cheaper due to being just a bit smaller than FE and FM. But, costs are close enough that you can call that about the same. You should be able to get a good race weekend out of a set of tires and then do a few sessions of test. Tires are gonna be between $900 and $1500 depending on tire mfgr and model of car you select.

3) A) Your body size may be a factor that steers you between one model or class of car than another. Before you make a decision and fall in love with ANY formula car, find a way to get in one and see how you fit. The car 'fitting' is a real deal with formula cars!!
B) FM and FC use H pattern gear boxes. The FE and FE2 are sequential. Some people that are on a 'driving path' want experience with a certain type of shifting. If your driving career is heading in one direction or another, the type gear box and shifting may be of importance to you.
C) If you are going to maintain your own formula car, you are going to HAVE to service the gearbox regularly. I was nervous about dealing with the gearbox in the beginning, and now I think that this is one of coolest things about these cars! Don't panic about this. There are service manuals and 'how to' documentation for whichever car and gear box you get. Since you are planning to buy a model of car that has other similar models in your area, you should be able to find another racer to help walk you through a gear change or gear box service the first time.
D) Decide from the beginning what type of gas you are going to run in the car. Pump gas will have ethanol in it. Race fuel or AvGas will NOT have ethanol. Some gas stations sell Non-ethanol unleaded fuel. There are tons of discussion on Apex, and any other racing website about ethanol. Understand why you DO want ethanol in your tank, or why you DO NOT want ethanol in your tank.

Always well written thoughtful wisdom from Gray.....

[schaibaa]

I'm having a hard time with $6k/tires per weekend.

Is this with Dunlops or Hankook's? I haven't ran the Hankook's yet but for me, the Dunlops have been super consistent even after several cycles. Sure, they drop off - but that's too many tires at an amateur level.

The majority of the expenses you list are not related to the specific type of car. You might save a bit on tires but if the Hankook's are as good or better than the Dunlops, they last longer than the FE AR tires (not sure about the new Hoosiers).

With your tire management plan where it is now, I think you're going to be at similar expenses regardless of the car.

My radical has been relatively inexpensive to run. I do my own work though.

[Jeff Read]

I sent you a private message

[jmwright]

I'm having a hard time with $6k/tires per weekend.

Is this with Dunlops or Hankook's? I haven't ran the Hankook's yet but for me, the Dunlops have been super consistent even after several cycles. Sure, they drop off - but that's too many tires at an amateur level.

That's with Hankooks. I can get a lot of days out of one set for practice/HPDE/etc. For the Cup, I went on the advice of my support team and brought three sets. The weekend consisted of 6 practice sessions, one qualifying and three 40 minute sprint races if that means anything.

The majority of the expenses you list are not related to the specific type of car.

That is a very good point, I think maybe the problem wasn't so much the car as the series I chose and the way I went about it. Was fun being around all the circus that comes with the PWC but ultimately too rich for my blood.

Transport and support costs should also come way down with local racing - much cheaper to roll it out the door at Sonoma or drive it a couple of hours to Laguna rather than heading from California to Utah, COTA, Watkins etc. I'm told that most of the guys running NASA go through at most one set of tires per weekend as well.

I am thinking of switching to NASA for the reduced cost if I stick with the Radical.

[jmwright]

I sent you a private message

Thanks Jeff, replied!

[schaibaa]

That's with Hankooks. I can get a lot of days out of one set for practice/HPDE/etc. For the Cup, I went on the advice of my support team and brought three sets. The weekend consisted of 6 practice sessions, one qualifying and three 40 minute sprint races if that means anything.



That is a very good point, I think maybe the problem wasn't so much the car as the series I chose and the way I went about it. Was fun being around all the circus that comes with the PWC but ultimately too rich for my blood.

Transport and support costs should also come way down with local racing - much cheaper to roll it out the door at Sonoma or drive it a couple of hours to Laguna rather than heading from California to Utah, COTA, Watkins etc. I'm told that most of the guys running NASA go through at most one set of tires per weekend as well.

I am thinking of switching to NASA for the reduced cost if I stick with the Radical.

That makes sense -- however unless you're winning the championship, you can probably do all of that on one set switching to the new tires at the start of the sprint races or maybe the second race.

One other thing to consider - an FE requires a lot of gearbox attention. If you aren't doing your own maintenance, an FE2 would pay for itself quickly - that is if the gearbox is as advertised.

[EYERACE]

I have not read much of this thread......I did read the beginning.....response: Buy a Ztec FC

[sprocketmensch]

While not on the list, FB is the most fun you can have IMHO. The only issue will be car counts in your region. I ran FM and while it was a great training car, there is nothing like the modern suspension of and FE, FC or FB. The advantage of FB is sequential shifting with paddleshift options, speed, and more range of car choices. Check out the FB forums before you jump into a car. Also probably lowest cost of ownership (except FM).

[924RACR]

Of course, the disadvantage to FB might be that it gets absorbed into FA next year...

Then again, that might mean there are a lot of cheap cars up for sale! Plus ECUs will be open...

[KentuckyChris]

Older thread but curious what you decided? I have several cars I’m about to list.