Poll: Dyno sealing non FIT FF engines

[EACIII]

It is just a bad idea all around. Finding time for all the racing stuff is hard enough, now I have to find time to schedule dyno tests and pay for them? How is that an improvement? How much will entry cost have to go up to pay for the dyno the region will have to drag to all the events?

Oh, and I use home built motors and they are not down on power - I do buy good heads though - you can't do that at home without a flow bench.

As stated there is already a spec sealed engine class, FE, if that is what you want go run FE and leave FF alone.

Ed

[EYERACE]

Easy to understand, no reason to go into the why or other details >>>> ..........sealed FF engines huh?..........BOO HISS.

[stephen wilson]

There is a sealed engine spec tire class, SRF, why are you racing that instead of a Miata ? At least it's a purpose-built race car.

The idea that this, or any other "magical formula" will bring the class back to car counts like the Miata are just a dream. Many racers will just never consider open-wheel cars.

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Stephen is correct, many people are afraid of open wheel cars. SCCA knows this based on their own survey results.

The other issue is the class grouping. SFR and Miata are the only classes in my region (SF) that run on the track without other classes mixed in.

The people that I have talked to that have left the small bore formula car classes (FV, CF, FF) are tired of running on the track with much faster cars (FC, FA, Etc) . There is nothing more frustrating then having a slow CF break up a good FV race. It's not fun trying to drive while having to look in your mirrors every couple of seconds for the faster cars approaching. Additionally, you get a great lap going then you have to move off line for a faster car passing and wrecks your fast lap. Of course it's just as frustrating for the faster cars coming up upon the slower cars. Nobody wins.

To me these are the reasons that people are leaving the open wheel classes. A sealed Kent motor is not going to help any of these issues.

[Brian C in Az]

The R888's on my Vette cost $350ea

I actually prefer NT01s. Went back and forth with them and the NT01s are better.
R888s will heat cycle out. The fast vette guys @ willow run the NT01s. Consistent to the cord... but that's a 3100lb car....

The R 888's do not heat cycle out on the Formula Fords. The Corvette is 3 times heavier and a different tire size, so the heat cycle is different. The Canadians have been running the R 888's for a long enough time to prove that it is the best current tire choice.

[Tom Duncan]

I don't think a sealed Ford engine is necessary. Before the Honda got approved for FF most of the Ford engines I ran against for 20+ years were pretty close, even my home-builts vs Ivey/Lowning/etc. I never felt like there was the performance disparity between Ford cars we now see between Ford and Honda powered cars.

I see Nationals action as at least negligent (I'm being conservative here) in not making the Hondas sealed to begin with and not making Honda powered cars their own class, thereby leaving Formula Ford alone. Fords capitulation in the American FF market when they had modern engines in modern chassis in Europe is equally galling.

In addition by not having any competition for a modern FF engine converstion Honda does indeed 'control the market', something Ford should have jumped on.

Tom Duncan

[Brian C in Az]

I see Nationals action as at least negligent (I'm being conservative here) in not making the Hondas sealed to begin with and not making Honda powered cars their own class, thereby leaving Formula Ford alone. Fords capitulation in the American FF market when they had modern engines in modern chassis in Europe is equally galling.

In addition by not having any competition for a modern FF engine converstion Honda does indeed 'control the market', something Ford should have jumped on.

Tom Duncan

I agree on the part about Honda, but as far as the part about Ford, it was the SCCA that prevented the modern Ford engines from being run here in the states. Europe, Australia, and South Africa run the newer Ford engines. So why would Ford say "No" to selling those engines to the US? The SCCA created this mess.

The smaller regions that are getting back to the basics are growing while the majority of the SCCA FF is shrinking. There is a common theme among many racers that are sitting out the seasons. "Bring back a Ford/ Kent only class with low cost tire specs (as in the rest of the world) and I'll come back to racing."
A very small, very vocal group of people with deep pockets caused the class to shrink by making it too expensive for many people to feel competitive. The class was originally designed to be a LOW cost stepping stone into Formula racing. Unrestricted tires and Honda engines ruined that.
We get on average over 20 cars every race out here. Kent engines and DOT tires are the ticket to a successful series.

As far as sealing engines, any properly built, home built engine should be competitve against the average Loyning or Ivey engine. Therefore, sealing is not the solution.

[Tom Duncan]

Brian, about "...it was the SCCA that prevented the modern Ford engines from being run here in the states". Can you expand on that?

By the way, I'm one of the ones that has gotten priced out of FF, selling my 98VD I spent years developing and moved over to (NOT 'back to') CF.

William as to "So instead of everyone jumping off the $10,000 cliff to convert to FIT" $20,000 is a more appropriate figure as the kits themselves are around $14,000 and there is a lot of other stuff that has to happen to make the car right for the Honda. If you're paying someone to do the work $20,000 is about right according to people that I have spoken to that have done it.

Tom D.

[CM/FFdriver]

All this talk about the Ford vs Honda is a big deal to me. I just bought a car last year for Solo racing because of cost for one and that I've always love the FF/CM class.

The rule in the GCR directly affects me and the CM class so I read up as much as possible especially when it may mean a rule change.

I believe having a seal engine is not the way to go, I love trying different things every event and to take that away would make me rethink the class and I would bet there more then 50% of FF people would say the same thing.

The numbers maybe down because of the Honda (that's my feeling", does anyone have the numbers to how many FF Honda there are in the SFR to the Ford FF?. My feeling is why not have a Honda FF class and a Ford FF class, yes the Honda field could start off small and the numbers would grow, The Ford FF Class would come back to life? because those guy can feel like there not racing a modern engine, your not going to stop people from spending money, that's just the way it is.

So lets say there are 10 Honda FF in the SFR, Nationally many more. Can you imagine after the rule change how many Ford FF would come out of the wood work just in are region alone.

Ben

[Bill Manofsky]

What is the make and year of your car?

come and race your FF in Formula Ford the Series. Kent only engines. Has to be SCCA legal.

They race Willow Springs, Pahrump, and Buttonwillow with VARA.

They draw the largest fields of FF on the west coast.

I am building up a Lola T540E to run next season.

http://www.formulafordtheseries.com/The_Series.html

[fitfan]

What is the make and year of your car?

come and race your FF in Formula Ford the Series. Kent only engines. Has to be SCCA legal.

They race Willow Springs, Pahrump, and Buttonwillow with VARA.

They draw the largest fields of FF on the west coast.

I am building up a Lola T540E to run next season.

http://www.formulafordtheseries.com/The_Series.html

we had a field of ~18 cars at willow last month, all fords! buttonwillow may be a little smaller ~15+ cars. i will be at buttonwillow.

looking forward to seeing the 'new' Lola.

[Bill Manofsky]

It's slow going on the Lola. I have to take the chassis to Victor for some cosmetic repairs and the head then goes to Pic. Then after that is a reconstruct of the oil system. It had been converted to an electric car by a girl's school in Nova Scotia. The engine bay was gutted of all the 1600 stuff.

Plan on seeing it next year. It will look like the picture when finished. Mine will be black.

It is a T540E which is 8in wider that a standard T540. Hopefully this will be better in the turns. It also does not have the shark nose like a 540. The T540E was the best Lola FF they made. It mostly ran in Europe and Canada. My car was originally a school car at MOSPORT before the girl's school got ahold of it....but it actually won an electric car race in Phoenix.

The the 2017 season will be for setting it up with the correct springs, gears etc. for Willow Springs adn Buttonwillow.

[rickb99]

.... It will look like the picture when finished. Mine will be black..

SO, NOT like the picture

[Bill Manofsky]

Sorry, for clarification, My T540E will "look"....shaped, configured, etc,....and NOT painted like the one in the picture. As opposed to this one which is a standard T540 narrow track shown in the picture below. Most people in the lower 48 have not seen a T540E except in the upper midwest and northeast. I assume my car is the only T540E in California. A T540 is routinely mistaken for a Crossle because of the hammerhead nose. The 540 also uses a snorkel intake like the T340/342 where the T540E uses a shorter side draft intake. The chassis are identical. For comparison, look at the front upper a-arms on both cars..... T540 with snorkel on the left and T540E with shorter intake and narrow nose on the right:

[Bill Manofsky]

For historical purposes, a third version of the Lola T540 was made specifically for the driving school at MOSPORT in CANADA. My car was originally one of these. They had special outriggers added to the upper front in order to use the T540 upper front A-arms but the longer T540E lower front A-Arms. They did this because they wanted a greater camber change for the radial tires they ran at the school. The outriggers were riveted and epoxied to the frame rails. They were designed by an engineer at the company that made the radial tires.

The outriggers have since been removed from my car before I purchased it. The attach points for the original T540E upper A-arms are still on the chassis. It was easier to have Pat Prince make a set of new upper A-arms off the original Lola Jigs than to try and find the outriggers. Plus I am going to run slicks.

Here is a photo of the front left corner one of those cars. A few of these cars still exist, so if you happen to buy one, keep in mind that it may have excessive camber for the slicks you want to run.

[joefuhring]

In order to make the Kent or the FIT engine equal for racing and make it fair to everyone is to "Claiming Value" on the engines. That is to say establish a dollar amount lets say $5,000. If someone spends $12,000 for a engine he could loose it if someone puts a claim of $5,000. This may stop all the special engines as well as lowering the price of engines if the class was to put a value on the engine. Honda would have a FIT with a rule like that.

[Peter Olivola]

In order to make the Kent or the FIT engine equal for racing and make it fair to everyone is to "Claiming Value" on the engines. That is to say establish a dollar amount lets say $5,000. If someone spends $12,000 for a engine he could loose it if someone puts a claim of $5,000. This may stop all the special engines as well as lowering the price of engines if the class was to put a value on the engine. Honda would have a FIT with a rule like that.

As much as some may like to tout this using oval racing as the example, it doesn't really work. History shows that shortly after it's implemented it's circumvented by collusion among competitors to prevent someone from actually claiming.

[John LaRue]

In order to make the Kent or the FIT engine equal for racing and make it fair to everyone is to "Claiming Value" on the engines. That is to say establish a dollar amount lets say $5,000. If someone spends $12,000 for a engine he could loose it if someone puts a claim of $5,000. This may stop all the special engines as well as lowering the price of engines if the class was to put a value on the engine. Honda would have a FIT with a rule like that.

Take it to the next level and make it the entire car!

[Bill Manofsky]

Any sealed class has to be a regional class and not a national class.

Sealed Spec Miata works in the San Franciso region because their primary dyno tuner can both dyno, tune and seal the engines. He can also do it on the same dyno every time, so there is no error. The methodology he uses to seal the engines is proprietary to the San Francisco region. This is essential to stop any cheating.

Nearby regions have not yest established this capability.

Plus there may be as much as a two horsepower difference between any other region's preferred dyno and the San Francisco region's dyno. So a car all sealed up and perfectly legal coming to race from San Fran may possibly be ruled illegal at another region's race.

[Raceworks]

In order to make the Kent or the FIT engine equal for racing and make it fair to everyone is to "Claiming Value" on the engines. That is to say establish a dollar amount lets say $5,000. If someone spends $12,000 for a engine he could loose it if someone puts a claim of $5,000. This may stop all the special engines as well as lowering the price of engines if the class was to put a value on the engine. Honda would have a FIT with a rule like that.

Claimer rules usually only let you take the long block. Most Honda owners have less than $5k in those, as we're not allowed to do anything meaningful to the engines. Most of the shenanigans with the Hondas involve doctoring ECUs, tampering with sensor signals, and attempts to bypass the air restrictor. There's not any magic with Honda blueprinting, unless you're going to do things that are going to show up under a traditional mechanical protest.

What does a new Kent long block cost complete?

Plus, what do you do with the claimed engine afterwards? If you're a Kent guy and you buy my Honda, you've just acquired an expensive paperweight. Part if the deterrent with claimer rules isn't just the fact your hot motor can get taken away from you, but that the person that claims your motor can use it against you until somebody else buys it from them.

Finally, if you're so broke you can't afford to buy more than one $600 set of Toyos a decade how are you going to be able to front $5k for somebody's motor?

[OneWayOut]

I can have a short block done for $550 and a head done for around $200.

Considering the gasket set alone is $130, there's no way you'll be able to have a head rebuilt for anywhere close to $200. Maybe $2,000...

[EACIII]

Who buys a gasket set? Not much in there you can use or need. Get the Felpro head gasket from Summit, Ivey one piece exhaust. Rest I pick up when on Apex from folks who have gone over to the Honda.

Ed

[Bill Manofsky]

Considering the gasket set alone is $130, there's no way you'll be able to have a head rebuilt for anywhere close to $200. Maybe $2,000...

You missed a key word I used --- OEM

I have been building my own engines (streert and race) since the 1970's. I can have any 4 cyl lower end remanufactured to OEM(stock) spec for a little over $500 and I can have a full head job for about $220. This includes the cost of the gasket set that the shop can get wholesale. This is what I paid for all my Miata engines at my local engine shop in Ridgecrest, Ca. I ran these engines for the past three seasons in VARA and SCCA.

I ran my Miata for 8 race weekends last year and had no DNF's except for missing one race due to a bad kill switch.

I have my machine shop do the majority of the machining on the head and block parts. I do the final assembly. I do this because I have learned the hard way not to fully trust any shop to do a complete build properly except for a pro FF engine builder.

Granted, if you take a 711 engine and replace the stock pistons with forged and the crank with a scat, yes you will add about $2000 to the lower end alone. But everyone knows this will not get you any performance boost. I it will just make the lower end less likely to grenade.

[John Nesbitt]

I have been involved as an official with the DC Region SSM class for the past six or seven years.

SSM is a big success at Summit Point (and MARRS tracks). By limiting horsepower, it takes the ‘built engine’ off the table, and creates a low(er)-cost class with very, very close racing. SSM fields are large. I often have to request a waiver from the NEDiv Executive Steward to exceed the cars-per-mile limit.

The big limiting factor is the dyno. As others have pointed out, every dyno produces different readings. For a while, WDCR SSM used two dynos at different shops, with an effort to develop/maintain an equivalence formula. That did not work. A single dyno is the only feasible approach.

That limits the scope of any dyno-sealed class to the area accessible to the chosen dyno, which means that a dyno-sealed Kent class is limited to that area. National sealed-engine classes like SRF or FE work because they follow a single-builder/single-dyno model.


I think that the larger question is: Is this a solution in search of a problem?

Is there really a population of lower-horsepower Kent-engine FFs sitting in garages close to Thunderhill, just waiting for a sealed-engine sub-class to become available? I suspect not.

However, it would be easy enough to make an experiment. Even if SFR would not immediately create a class, you could run sealed-engine FFs in a ‘private championship’ until you had enough entries to justify your own class. But, given the dyno limitation, a sealed FF cannot have national scope (just like SSM cannot).

[Bill Manofsky]

I have been involved as an official with the DC Region SSM class for the past six or seven years.

SSM is a big success at Summit Point (and MARRS tracks). By limiting horsepower, it takes the ‘built engine’ off the table, and creates a low(er)-cost class with very, very close racing. SSM fields are large. I often have to request a waiver from the NEDiv Executive Steward to exceed the cars-per-mile limit.

The big limiting factor is the dyno. As others have pointed out, every dyno produces different readings. For a while, WDCR SSM used two dynos at different shops, with an effort to develop/maintain an equivalence formula. That did not work. A single dyno is the only feasible approach.

That limits the scope of any dyno-sealed class to the area accessible to the chosen dyno, which means that a dyno-sealed Kent class is limited to that area. National sealed-engine classes like SRF or FE work because they follow a single-builder/single-dyno model.


I think that the larger question is: Is this a solution in search of a problem?

Is there really a population of lower-horsepower Kent-engine FFs sitting in garages close to Thunderhill, just waiting for a sealed-engine sub-class to become available? I suspect not.

However, it would be easy enough to make an experiment. Even if SFR would not immediately create a class, you could run sealed-engine FFs in a ‘private championship’ until you had enough entries to justify your own class. But, given the dyno limitation, a sealed FF cannot have national scope (just like SSM cannot).

Agreed. This is what we found out trying to start up Sealed Spec Miata(SSM) in the Cal Club region. I was the first one.

We realized that inviting cars down from the SF region would complicate the problem. Any sealed class basically has to revolve around the dyno for that region. Crossing regions is difficult.

To make matters more complicated, the dyno guy has to not only be able to dyno the engine, but also detune it if it comes in over spec. He also then needs to have a sealing method that is impervious to cheaters. Essentially secret "seal" he places on and around the engine that only he/she knows about.

The Buttonwillow Dyno guy has a fixed dyno for Hp runs,but does not tune or seal engines.

The SF region dyno guy has a portable dyno he has matched to his fixed dyno at Thunderhill, but there were contractual issues that prevent Cal Club from letting him come down to SOCAL with his portable dyno. Also the sealing method is proprietary to the SF region.

I recently moved from SOCAL and do not know if SSM has ever gotten off the ground. I sold the Miata and am now focusing on Club FF and Club FC on the east coast.

Before I left SOCAL, I put together a 711 engine form my Lola. I bought a Quicksilver head rebuilt by Ivey and a set of forged pistons and a cam from Ivey. I had my local shop do the balance job, profile the rockers, and lighten the flywheel to spec. He does most of the local off road race engines for the desert guys. I also bought a tan Tilton clutch. So we will see how competitive I am.

I am not looking for Penske to pick me up and am just hoping to have fun running mid pack with VDCA next year. If not, then I will look to invest some money into Mr. Butler and his talents down the road in Greenville

[Raceworks]

Some interesting relative numbers, from the old R&T test article here: http://www.apexspeed.com/community/_...t_roadtest.pdf

They put the cost of a DB-1 at $16,450, plus an engine for $4,700, and a set of Goodyear tires for $403 in March of 1984.

In today's dollars (based on the CPI inflation calculator at the Bureau of Labor Services) that's $39,548.00 for the roller, $11,299.65 for a built motor ($51,000 for a complete car) about $968.89 for a set of Goodyear tires.

By comparison the Spectrums I got in 2014 were about $57,000 each including the data system and the tires in the pro series are about $1,100 a set. Club racing tires are cheaper, in some cases cheaper than they were in 1984.

[T Brzezicki]

But the point is that the DB6 ios faster because the guy has more money, not necessarily because he is a better driver....

No your point is wrong; the DB6 is faster because of a better design, specifically aero. What your trying to regulate is money spent on race cars, not a racing class. And that plan will never work. You don't like it, find something else. There will always be big money in racing

[billtebbutt]

When was the last time there were 30 FF's in the same race?[/QUOTE]


Not trying to be argumentative, but we had more than 30 cars in the same race this year at Mosport for the Toyo series (VARAC GP for sure, maybe others - too lazy to look). I don't think a sealed engine policy is the solution to the problem.

best
BT

[Lotus7]

It would be purely for the benefit of the drivers and not the engine builders and tire companies.

Thoughts anyone?

I see pro's and con's, but be careful what you wish for ...
what happens if engine builders and tire manufacturers decide they aren't making enough money to bother continuing?

[Daryl DeArman]

I see pro's and con's, but be careful what you wish for ...
what happens if engine builders and tire manufacturers decide they aren't making enough money to bother continuing?

Everybody runs a stock Fit on spec DOT-R tires you can buy from Tirerack.com

[EACIII]

Everybody runs a stock Fit on spec DOT-R tires you can buy from Tirerack.com

If that is the case I would find another class to run in or a place other then SCCA that didn't have those rules.

Ed

[Daryl DeArman]

If that is the case I would find another class to run in or a place other then SCCA that didn't have those rules.

Ed

That's great. But given your scenario of engine builders and tire manufacturers deciding it wasn't worth it any longer, who's rebuilding your engine and where you getting tires?

The other class to run could just be FormulaSpecFit. . .

[steve zemke]

No Thank you

[T Brzezicki]

Sorry to burst your bubble... The package is expensive because Honda controls the market. They can ask whatever they want for it and whatcha gonna do about it? .

Well Well Well look what we have here. Now someone I know got banned for bringing this very thing up when we were in the debate if we should let the Honda's in. Now look what you got? Well Well, Honda controls everything. Well what did you expect? We were told this will be making the power plants cheaper because we could run them all year. What them now huh? Doesn't taste so good anymore does it?. Now choke them off so they are competitive compared to Fords and lets get back to cheaper racing

[problemchild]

Well Well Well look what we have here. Now someone I know got banned for bringing this very thing up when we were in the debate if we should let the Honda's in. Now look what you got? Well Well, Honda controls everything. Well what did you expect? We were told this will be making the power plants cheaper because we could run them all year. What them now huh? Doesn't taste so good anymore does it?. Now choke them off so they are competitive compared to Fords and lets get back to cheaper racing

Give it a rest. We are now coming up on a decade. Any debate is long over.

You are entitled to your hatred of Honda engines, but your hatred is fueling a bunch of perceptions that are just plain inaccurate. When you compare FF to any other formula class, it is by far the healthiest. Look in the classifieds and you will see there are very few cars for sale and literally no engines ..... Honda or kent. I have 4 Honda powered cars in my shop, 3 of which are fast enough to win any F1600 or FF race in North America and I plan ZERO maintenance for the 2nd year in a row. That is ZERO, as in nothing. I will change the oil and filter. Replacing injectors is not even worth the trouble. One engine will start it's 7th season and the entire maintenance cost has been about $2K. The head was cleaned twice and most of the cost was dyno time and re & re of the engine.

Derek Ketchie, Andy Brumbaugh, and JR2 run excellent kent programs and can win any race on any day. A first year team was claiming podiums in FRP races as the lone kent entry. That Series is all but impossible to win in first time around, so I would certainly expect wins if they run a 2nd season. He would sometimes pass 2 or 3 of the best Honda cars on a single straightaway. I know of another team that will be running a kent in FRP this year and expect them to win races.

Although I am disappointed that HPD has reduced their contingencies, the price increases have been minimal over the decade and they seem committed to maintaining support for the product. The cost of running competitively in FF or F1600 now is tires, entry, and travel. We probably spend more on shock or brake service than engine service.

Vintage Formula Ford racing is booming. Finding cars, and affordable good engines seems to be the challenge, which has nothing to do with Honda. Discussion about parity between kent engines, and legality continue, which again, has nothing to do with Honda.

The dyno-balancing process that started this thread is just plain crazy. It has gotten no support here, even among other Honda-haters. It is time to just participate and enjoy the health of the class, whether your flavor is VFF, CFF, MFF, VF, CF, FF, or F1600!

[provamo]

its cold an ugly in the North East so i am watching those ridiculous "hot rodding" shows on TV and notice a lot of guys adding EFI to "old school" OHV engines........................why not Formula FORD?

[SEComposites]

I think modern technology should be left to the Honda’s. There’s nothing wrong with a carburetor if you look after it.

[alangbaker]

I'm driving a Honda now, and I'm doing it because I just don't want to deal with the maintenance of a Kent.

[swiftdrivr]

Even I, in my [ahem] younger days, have beaten a Fit with my Butler Kent. The reason I don't now has little to do with the powerplant; it has more to do with others adapting to the SPEC tire better than I have, and [dare I say it?] my "years of experience" also known as age. It's still basically a driver's class, and if you keep your expectations reasonable, you can run fairly cheaply with the SPEC tire. I don't "compete" against the guys with endless tires, spare motors, crew, and engineers. [It is fun when you beat one of them, though] Taking home a seven dollar trophy isn't the point for me. It's the fun of flinging a light, responsive car through the esses. It's getting the best I can out of legal equipment, judging my performance against guys I think are legal as a bench mark. If I get to dice with someone for it, that really makes it great, but dicing for 6th feels pretty much like dicing for first, except maybe with more money still in your pocket. I've been fortunate enough to do both, and I'm okay with either. If you aren't racing because you can't afford to run up front, racing is not likely to be your game; there's always someone with more money, [or less ethics.] And if that's not the case, their is always someone with more talent. If the next Senna or Prost is in your area, you can seal anything you want, and still get it handed to you.
Cars beget cars, entries beget entries; The way to increase the class is to get a car, come have fun, and tell your racing friends about it.

[T Brzezicki]

Give it a rest. We are now coming up on a decade. Any debate is long over.

You are entitled to your hatred of Honda engines, but your hatred is fueling a bunch of perceptions that are just plain inaccurate.

Whoa , Whoa Whoa! Never hated Hondas, or The Honda Fit motor. It's a great package. I just didn't like the way it was initially sold. It's a long since past debate and I won't need to get into that again but I have nothing against the Honda. Oh and the cost of them has absolutely nothing to do with how much the dry sump system costs. Somebody says that doesn't know how much the Kent oil system costs. Or know much about the way it was all put together.