New BMW Engine install

[JohnPaul]

Hello, I'm able to get my hands on the new BMW s1000r engine (194 hp stock) but someone told me to use this engine I'd have to do some serious work, above and beyone just installing it in to the car. (which I'm not capable of) is there anyone out there that knows this engine and can tell me what I'd be getting involved and what would be needed to get it working properly and if it would be legal in the F1000 class, thanks,
JP

[RussMcB]

I'm not an expert, but I think there will be two major areas to tackle: 1) making the engine run in a car and 2) installing it in a chassis.

I'd call George Dean about the first issue, and maybe do some research to find who knows the engine and its management system, harness. It seems like the newer the engine, the more complicated their management system.

Regarding the mating of the engine and chassis, I'd start with the chassis manufacturer, then get recommendations for builders/fabricators near you. As we've seen in FB, there are a lot of smart people able to do design and fabrication. Maybe talk with Mike Devins, Jay Novak, Pat Prince, Kevin @ Comprent, Dustin Wright, Gary Hickman, ...

[JohnPaul]

Thanks Russ, You are right there seems to be alot of really smart fabricators in this class and I'm sure getting it mounted in the car is the easy part for them (not me). I was told that there were potential electrical or managment issues that would be tough to overcome and in order to get it worked out the solution may be illegal in the FB class. Not sure about the specifics or if this was true, I was hoping someone could fill me in (in laymens terms)

[Matt King]

The S1000RR is available with traction control and ABS that is integrated into the ECU, but that is an optional feature, so if you had the standard version of the engine, the electronics might be simpler.

[glenn cooper]

Whoever gets this done frst is gonna be untouchable, as long as they can drive the beast!

[carnut169]

Whoever gets this done frst is gonna be untouchable, as long as they can drive the beast!

Maybe. You've got the possible reliability hurdles, and have we seen a torque curve? The newest GSXR is what, 185ish? Sweet motor, no doubt but probably difficult to have a spare in the trailer and I'd like to see back to back dyno runs...

My .02...I really think that if you have any late model 1 liter motor your going to be fine power-wise. It's more about aero, chassis, setup, tires, and driver skill.

[JohnPaul]

I'm not understanding how every magazine I read have the GSXR engine maxed out at 161 hp and I'm hearing people saying they're getting 180+hp. How is that possible if this is a stock class? is it exhaust, electronics? what does G. Dean do to get them pumping out so much HP and still stay stock? and imagine what he can get out of BMW??
Well, I can get my hands on one right now with almost no miles on it, I don't know if I'm up to the challenge to get it installed and sorted (not to mention the $$$ I need to layout)

[RussMcB]

How much is a used, low mileage BMW S1000R engine?

[JohnPaul]

How much is a used, low mileage BMW S1000R engine?

Asking $10k, I think I can get it for less but I'm more concerned that I can get it to work. If I knew for sure that someone would get it done for me I'd do it.

[ghickman]

Asking $10k, I think I can get it for less but I'm more concerned that I can get it to work. If I knew for sure that someone would get it done for me I'd do it.

Save your hard earned money and let someone else pioneer this trail. Unless you just want to blow 10k plus...bad choice...just my opinion.

Gary Hickman

[RussMcB]

Yowser. That's a lot of Suzuki (or Yamaha or Kawasaki or Honda) engines.

Just thought of something else needed by the BMW engine - Dry sump system (or wet sump pan baffles).

Before spending $10,000+ on a BWM S1000R engine development program ($15K?), I'd be tempted to give GDRE a GSXR engine (or two) and $10K. Think about it. You'd have several powerful, reliable engines compared to one new, unknown engine that may or may not be better.

[JohnPaul]

Yowser. That's a lot of Suzuki (or Yamaha or Kawasaki or Honda) engines.

Just thought of something else needed by the BMW engine - Dry sump system (or wet sump pan baffles).

Before spending $10,000+ on a BWM S1000R engine development program ($15K?), I'd be tempted to give GDRE a GSXR engine (or two) and $10K. Think about it. You'd have several powerful, reliable engines compared to one new, unknown engine that may or may not be better.

There is no way i'm spending $10k, realistically I think I can get him to $5-6k. So lets say at $5500, is that worth doing? with electronics. What else would I need to do? Lets say I started with a roller. Who would take on this project for me?

[Brands]

It depends on how quickly you want to be on track. Going the BMW route will be expensive and time consuming, and you have to face the possibility that you might blow it up, then you're left with a car kitted out for a hard to find and expensive motor. If you don't plan to be on track this year and are prepared to spend, then go for it! I'm sure you'll find plenty of help an advice here to help you along.

[carnut169]

What has to be done:

Wire harness- figuring out how to defeat all of the sensors you won't use, trim remaining harness.

Airbox/ air intake- fitting an airbox for your chassis

Chain routing- same with any bike motor- is the BMW the same as the rest? Not a shaft drive is it?

Engine mounts- easy

Dry/ wet sump- not easy- dry sump prefered, although with the right wet sump pan it can work. Trouble is that we've seen atr least 3 versions of the Suzuki pan before the latest one (which does work, I believe). I suppose you could copy it...

Exhaust/ headers- have to be custom made- you'll do the same thing for any motor.

Spares- You will blow up this motor in time. It's just a fact. You can buy this one for $6k but will you be able to find a 2nd?


IMHO- Call George Dean and get a prepped GSXR (or two). Have the billet clutch basket installed and get the latest/ greatest engine management. There are products out there for flat, push-button shifting as well. Probably mounts already exist for your chassis. May be able to also get your header/ exhaust. George can dyno tune it and you'll have a motor that makes great power, and spares are always available.

For any time gained by the possibility of 10 more hp you'll lose in developmental time off track.

[Wren]

Definitely not worth the trouble. You are going to need to be at the pointy end of the grid before this would make a difference.

$6k for the engine would be the cheapest part. You are going to give someone some serious money to try to make it work in the car (with no guarantee that it can be done at all). Then you are going to give a fab shop some serious money to make an exhaust, a pan that works, an airbox, and to fit it into the car.

I can't imagine a reason not to go with a proven engine package. Let someone else spend the money to make that package work.

[glenn cooper]

I have seen have the BMW S1000 RR around 15 HP more than a late GSXR thou, stock to stock.
True, the torque #'s definitely matter, but yow - 15 HP more?

The numbers we use might be different from the magazines due to our HP #'s coming from an engine dyno, and the m/c mags using a rear wheel dyno.

Someone is going to do this in time, and the price is a huge hurdle, but that does not seem to be an issue for more than a few involved in auto racing!

Like has been said, pass on the BMW deal, get in a car, and get some racing in.

[ghickman]

Johnpaul
If you really want to make this happen I'm up for the challenge.

I have a full machine shop, full time fabricator, full time CAD designer (me), and a Stuska engine dyno at my disposal.

Send me a roller, BMW engine with a complete wire harness and all the associated ECU etc., and a check for $10k and I'll make this happen....

Disclaimer:
No guarantees as to how long the engine will last but it will be running when it leaves my shop.

Gary Hickman
Edge Engineering

[JohnPaul]

Three things come to mind:

a lot of work, a lot of money, a lot of time......

1) I'm not up to or interested in getting into that much work when there are a bunch of very good cars already built at reasonable prices.
2) don't have a lot of it.
3) Ready to start driving.

So I'm not going to buy it. That being said I would get this if I were someone that had the knowledge to get it done right and the cash to really do it right. I would think done right this engine would be pretty serious especially in the right hands. The bikes are brand new, are getting great reviews and are not that more expensive compared to a Jap bike so a lot of people will buy them. So I think in the next few years the motors will be much more available.
I'm a big BMW fan and I'd love to see them in F1000.
I think someone should buy this, if someone is interest let me know I can set up the sale.

[HastyHorn]

I think that your interest in using this engine in Formula B is well founded. Stock for stock it is producing more HP (and torque) than any other comparably priced SuperBike engine.

As to how other stock engines can suddenly be competitive I'll give you some insight. The current Yamaha R1 (2009-2010) US model is producing about 146 RWHP by most magazine tests. The Euro version is making 164 RWHP on the same dyno. Given the freedom to by-pass the restrictive US ECU and adjust the fuel/air ratios (and a good pipe) we've brought the stock engine up to 176 RWHP. Clearly, 194 RWHP is still superior, that is if you can still achieve those numbers with the engine outside the frame.

That might seem counterintuitive but has proven to be the case with some engines. The Honda CBR-1000RR has proven difficult to match its in-frame numbers to its Car configuration numbers. It may be that the attempt to reduce the stock wiring harness to its most simple form has removed some aspect that we were unaware of. The drop in HP difference is very significant.

Does the BMW come with a main switch activated ant-theft device? Most of the European Superbikes come with such a system and getting the engine to run without using the OEM mainswitch (and key) has proven very difficult.

So your first step will be to see whether BMW offers a simplified racing harness. If they do offer one and are willing to sell you one they will ask for a great deal of money for what amounts to a limited production racing part. If that system includes a racing ECU an even greater cost. Trying to make use of the the bike's traction control system in your car might prove easy (unlikely) but only trial and error will determine whether you can get it to work in a useful manner.

You'll need several Service Manuals, one to give to whomever, is designing your car harness and one to the guy building your dry sump system. To speed the process up you'll need at least two new engines, one for the engine builder and dyno operator so that he can confirm the wiring needs and simplify the harness for installation into your car and a second engine for your dry sump builder to dis-assemble and understand your oiling needs. This process will almost certainly result in your having to use an electric water pump in place of the mechanically driven unit that comes with the engine as you will have to use the water pump drive mechanism to drive the scavenge section of the dry sump.

You could attempt to build a wet sump with sufficient protection but the process of doing so would cost you an engine or two before you had a satisfactory setup.

After you've successfully installed your dry sumped, adequately producing stock engine in your chassis you will have to build a car based exhaust system that works as well as the OEM system as well as adapt the airbox (on this variable length velocity stack intake) to the bodywork of an existing car or have new bodywork built to accomodate the OEM airbox and fresh air needs.

Now you're ready to race....no.... test, to see whether the engine/clutch/tranny will hold up to the rigors of track racing.

If you do all this right (and are lucky) you will have an almost unbeatable combination (if driven by a great driver) and you will change the landscape of Formula B and possibly D Sport as well.

You will have spent a boatload of money ($100K minimum) but you will have changed the racing World (or at least a small portion of it). What's that worth?

Hasty Horn

[JohnPaul]

I think that your interest in using this engine in Formula B is well founded. Stock for stock it is producing more HP (and torque) than any other comparably priced SuperBike engine.

As to how other stock engines can suddenly be competitive I'll give you some insight. The current Yamaha R1 (2009-2010) US model is producing about 146 RWHP by most magazine tests. The Euro version is making 164 RWHP on the same dyno. Given the freedom to by-pass the restrictive US ECU and adjust the fuel/air ratios (and a good pipe) we've brought the stock engine up to 176 RWHP. Clearly, 194 RWHP is still superior, that is if you can still achieve those numbers with the engine outside the frame.

That might seem counterintuitive but has proven to be the case with some engines. The Honda CBR-1000RR has proven difficult to match its in-frame numbers to its Car configuration numbers. It may be that the attempt to reduce the stock wiring harness to its most simple form has removed some aspect that we were unaware of. The drop in HP difference is very significant.

Does the BMW come with a main switch activated ant-theft device? Most of the European Superbikes come with such a system and getting the engine to run without using the OEM mainswitch (and key) has proven very difficult.

So your first step will be to see whether BMW offers a simplified racing harness. If they do offer one and are willing to sell you one they will ask for a great deal of money for what amounts to a limited production racing part. If that system includes a racing ECU an even greater cost. Trying to make use of the the bike's traction control system in your car might prove easy (unlikely) but only trial and error will determine whether you can get it to work in a useful manner.

You'll need several Service Manuals, one to give to whomever, is designing your car harness and one to the guy building your dry sump system. To speed the process up you'll need at least two new engines, one for the engine builder and dyno operator so that he can confirm the wiring needs and simplify the harness for installation into your car and a second engine for your dry sump builder to dis-assemble and understand your oiling needs. This process will almost certainly result in your having to use an electric water pump in place of the mechanically driven unit that comes with the engine as you will have to use the water pump drive mechanism to drive the scavenge section of the dry sump.

You could attempt to build a wet sump with sufficient protection but the process of doing so would cost you an engine or two before you had a satisfactory setup.

After you've successfully installed your dry sumped, adequately producing stock engine in your chassis you will have to build a car based exhaust system that works as well as the OEM system as well as adapt the airbox (on this variable length velocity stack intake) to the bodywork of an existing car or have new bodywork built to accomodate the OEM airbox and fresh air needs.

Now you're ready to race....no.... test, to see whether the engine/clutch/tranny will hold up to the rigors of track racing.

If you do all this right (and are lucky) you will have an almost unbeatable combination (if driven by a great driver) and you will change the landscape of Formula B and possibly D Sport as well.

You will have spent a boatload of money ($100K minimum) but you will have changed the racing World (or at least a small portion of it). What's that worth?

Hasty Horn

That was great! can it be done by June 23? that's when I have to take my drivers school in Homestead? lol, yeah I'm out but someone should buy this engine and do it.

[Daryl DeArman]

I really think that if you have any late model 1 liter motor your going to be fine power-wise. It's more about aero, chassis, setup, tires, and driver skill.

That's true with most new classes. It's when most of that stuff gets sorted out and your paying $XXXX for a couple of HP across along the curve that it gets silly.

Maybe it is time to rethink that 2 or 3 year old engine rule. Maybe the BMW is too different now to likely be the engine to have. I bet Honda, Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki aren't sitting on their hands it won't be long before we have something similar from them.

[Beartrax]

The Formula BMW cars: are they using a motorcycle engine?

Would anything thing from that application carry over to an FB?

[HastyHorn]

The Formula BMW cars were built by BMW and were based on the old lay down, two valve, "flying brick" engine (120 RWHP) which has no connection to their latest offering. Should BMW use this latest engine and in doing so solve all the aforementioned problems this class would jump on this engine.

Let's not forget that the V-four Ducati engine produced for the public (at some $75k a crack) is also a viable candidate for dominating Formula B should someone be willing to crack that nut. Rumor has it that they will offer an additional production run of this motorcycle in the near future for far less money.

Hasty Horn

[Josh_Kimble]

So did this thread just die? Has there been any more thought put into this? Surely in the last 7 years someone has done this?! I have the ability to get my hands on an S1000RR and will be able to implement the ABS, DTC, MODE Selection and everything, but I can't believe I can't find any info on someone having done this before.

[Daryl DeArman]

I have the ability to get my hands on an S1000RR and will be able to implement the ABS, DTC, MODE Selection and everything, but I can't believe I can't find any info on someone having done this before.

If it's too good of a deal you may just want to shy away from such a deal.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...512-story.html

[David Ferguson]

There was a P1 car running this engine at the Runoffs last year. Contact Mike Devins at http://www.hurleyracingproducts.com/ he was involved in building that car and getting the engine running (they used a MoTeC M150 ECU, BTW).

[Josh_Kimble]

If it's too good of a deal you may just want to shy away from such a deal.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...512-story.html

I am not worried about it. I raced an S1000RR for 4 years, and this shop was one of my sponsors. A guy brought in his S1000RR with a frame that was cracked in several spots. Its a loaner to whoever wants it now!

[Josh_Kimble]

There was a P1 car running this engine at the Runoffs last year. Contact Mike Devins at http://www.hurleyracingproducts.com/ he was involved in building that car and getting the engine running (they used a MoTeC M150 ECU, BTW).

GREAT information! Thank you so much!

[Daryl DeArman]

I am not worried about it. I raced an S1000RR for 4 years, and this shop was one of my sponsors. A guy brought in his S1000RR with a frame that was cracked in several spots. Its a loaner to whoever wants it now!

No worries, just would hate for someone to unknowingly buy a stolen bike only to be out money and bike later when the police comes a knocking. Since two such bikes were stolen within the last week less than a days' drive from you, it wasn't a stretch to think it was possible that a sweet deal might pop up in your area.

[ghickman]

someone has finally successfully made the BMW run in an F1000. We're here at the Hoosier Super Tour race in Portland and the owner of my old FB has installed a BMW. Sounds great and seems very fast.
It can be done

[JerryH]

We all know it can be done with an aftermarket ecu.....but this would be the first to do it with the legal factory ECU. Has anyone checked the car over for legality?