Buttonwillow Raceway sells the Perilli's for the F2000 cars
$245 front per tire
$259 Rear per tire
Buttonwillow Raceway sells the Perilli's for the F2000 cars
$245 front per tire
$259 Rear per tire
Those of us running vintage Van Dieman's can't really run the radials as we can't get enough camber for them.
Looking back at the start of this thread.
Why wouldn't NWFC conform to the proven SCCA club weights for FC/2L that are deemed good parity over the last 5+ years.
We have to keep in mind this is the rule for all of SCCA regional and Majors as well both long running pro series (bob wrights F2000 championship series east coast & Pacific F2000 series California west coast).
CURRENT SCCA CLUB WEIGHTS + both established pro series east & Southwest are :
Pinto Engine : 1200 #
Pinto with aluminum head : 1200 #
Zetec : 1200 #
Current NWFC rules
CFC - 1175 #
Pinto - 1190 #
Zetec - 1240 #
Why would NWFC step outside of established parity weights & inflate the zetec weight (less performance) & reduce the pinto weight (more performance) in effort to bring competition closer when the NWFC series has a separate zetec and pinto championships within their series.
If NWFC is using those weights because local sanctioning bodies (ICSCC or CACC) have them currently in place it would seem possible to put a request of rule change in based on proven sanctioning bodies/series already having parity established.
We are actually at 1210# due to the heavier spec radial tire.
----------
In memory of Joe Stimola and Glenn Phillips
Because we prefer closer racing on track.
Also the points setup wasn't always split up.
I think these two messages pull together one of the great truths of racing, one that was at the heart of the creation of SCCA's Majors and now SuperTour programs.
There are fundamentally two types of racers. Those who run their local tracks and those with the means, inclination and competitive drive to seek out the best competition they can find regardless of the travel involved.
The latter requires a unified rule set across the country. The former does not.
Originally Posted by Jacobwoo
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
Because results to date have shown that the SCCA over all rules package has NOT resulted in fair and balanced competition between the Pinto and Zetec engines. If you think it does then race SCCA events only. Here in the Northwest we might have an easier time seeing what's happening because although we race SCCA up here we are not blindly locked to their rules.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
Rickb and Peter,
First of all the rule weight set is for both local regional and majors scca events..
I find it hard to believe when the statistics and number make up majority of 2L cars probably in the entire country is 20% zetec 80% pinto. being that the pinto owners are not currently complaining in any recent fastracks with scca at a local or majors level of parity issues for the last 5 years !!
Why then would bob wrights series.. the most established series in the country have the same weight limit for both zetec and pinto being 1210 with the heavier radial tires.
Bob wright is the one person in the country who actually wants attendance to his series.. for any and all drivers.. and I am more that positive he is interested in parity between zetec and pinto,, since bob wright's series can incorporate rules as they wish beyond SCCA since they run their own exclusive weekends they would if they felt a disparity.. Bobs whole series is based on participation and the last thing he would want to do is disenfranchise potential series drivers because of parity!
that being said I think the NWFC series does the weight they ( based on RSS response ) do because most of the pinto drivers are purely amateurs ( lest accomplished/skilled drivers) at best and the zetec owners are more established ( accomplished/skilled ) drivers who have probably driven a pinto prior that have more experience.. that's it.
Bob would you chime in and let us know if you feel the same top level driver in either a pinto built to current SCCA rules vs a zetec built to rules would be evenly matched in your series at 1210# weight ?
Jacob
NWFC is an amatuer series for amatuer, club racers. Various pro series, SCCA Majors etc. are designed for a different group of customers. Since 2015 no NWFC racer has run a Major and only one has run a single pro weekend. As such the rules of these other groups may or may not be in the best interest of NWFC.
As for the 20/80 no complaints statement you might want to drill a bit deeper into the data and you will realized that Pinto folks have voted by being absent. Given the car demographics in the Northwest this is not acceptable.
I have no idea why you have come to the conclusion that different weights for cars that are scored against cars of like weight and engine packages disenfranchises anyone, due to parity !
Finally the assumption that there is a difference in the skill level between our Pinto and Ztec drivers could not be further from the truth. If anything the talent level in the Pinto class is deeper than in the Zetecs.
Regional events are controlled locally and they can do pretty much anything they want.
Those are not the weights set for SCCA Majors/Super Tours. The GCR weights apply. Do you really think the Majors/Super Tour Race Director would sign off on such a penalty? Do you really think any entry who was penalized for being at a lower weight than the local rule but GCR compliant wouldn't be able to win a protest/appeal?
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
Jacob- I'm not sure what you're hoping to accomplish here?? Suggesting that people who own cheaper cars(pintos), aren't as skilled as others who are fortunate enough to have a more expensive car(zetec), is a pretty good way to have people ignore your thoughts on the series.
To assume because someone only does a few races a year, in their old pinto car (or newer zetec), isn't taking it every bit as seriously as the guy who races every weekend with a professional team is a mistake.
Also, based solely off of your inputs into this thread, it appears you maybe haven't ever personally witnessed the torque advantage a zetec car has pulling out of a corner before??
Finally, you also might not have noticed the amount of cars from all income groups that NWFC has managed to bring together and get out on track TOGETHER. Many of these drivers are very skilled. Many lack the budget to run every race or travel long distances to race. The rules that NWFC uses are put together by the racers themselves, not a organizing body. Everybody agrees that they would like to race with as many competitors on track. They want to RACE, not run around a track on their own. NWFC has succeeded in driving up car counts by modifying the SCCA rules, not sticking to them.
How true! And if you don't think is exists watch some of the NWFC videos from Mission or Spokane and watch the Zetec's pull away from the Pinto's leaving the corners even WITH the weight disadvantage.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
Peter
You are absolutely correct, any FC that comes in at or over the sanctioning body weight will be classified as a finisher and scored by the sanctioning body accordingly. However, they will not be scored by NWFC for points in our series unless they make our weights.
As an international series that in any given year will run under 3 and sometimes 4 different sanctioning bodies with a variety of weight requirements we were faced with the possibility of cars being legal in one jurisdiction and illegal in another. In addition we wanted cars to run closer together on the track to make the racing more interesting. All of our Zetec drivers at the time had previously run Pintos and were well aware of the advantage the Ztec has coming out of the corners and they were all on board with the increase in weight.
Cheers
Thanks guys for the explanation / reasoning behind your series decisions re:weights.
I have been looking for a car, originally being a pinto - now with all the zetecs on the market at a fairly attractive price was looking that way.
I will run locally at PIR first, But I do plan to run with your series next year and was trying to make a decision on which power plant option.
Still am curious if Bob Wright could chime in on his thoughts/feedback.
Since his series runs 1210 weight both pinto and zetec, if the same driver and same car setup both with top fresh engine builds to the rules - Would the race be even say in lap times ? obviously a zetec might have a torque corner exit advantage and a pinto have a top end straight away advantage. And some tracks would favor one power plant over the other. but do you feel a compromised best of parity exists between the two different power plants. or ?
As they say, TANSTAAFL.
Peter Olivola
(polivola@gmail.com)
Jacob,
If you want to win races then Zetec if you want to win the Championship then a Pinto has a bette chance.
Oddly that seems very wrong. very wrong indeed.
Buy a zetec, have a weight disadvantage over parity and have a worse chance at winning a championship.
Buy an ancient old pinto have a weight advantage ( performance gain) over parity and better chance at winning a championship.
It seems something is wrong or partly broken with YOUR formula !
Yes I still may run with your series. but who are you catering to ? the budget conscious amateur racer who just wants to have a fun time ? you say your pinto drivers have a deeper talent pool.. can you mention two drivers that ran zetecs that were fast in your series. I wouldn't mind reaching out to them and asking a few questions.
I guess I should probably try and reach out to Gavin and Mitch.. they both respectively won both pinto / zetec championships.
Zetecs are faster so you have a better chance of winning the race overall but there are more Pintos in the field so they have a better chance of maximizing points. If enough zetecs show up then Pinto advantage disapears.
Currently the breakdown is around
10- zetecs
20- pintos
6 - CFC
so if zetecs are faster ( winning races ) then they must have the better prepared cars, engines, or drivers. especially with a weight disadvantage in your series rules.
Because otherwise pinto drivers with a properly built to optimum power engine, and a well prepared car should always be winning races over a zetec ? especially with your weight rule classification for pintos.
No ?
you did make these comments in an earlier post.
"" NWFC is an amatuer series for amatuer, club racers. Various pro series, SCCA Majors etc. are designed for a different group of customers. ""
"" Finally the assumption that there is a difference in the skill level between our Pinto and Ztec drivers could not be further from the truth. If anything the talent level in the Pinto class is deeper than in the Zetecs. ""
Begs me to question if your talent pool of customers are all in pintos, then why are they not winning the races over zetecs based on this years results ?
Jacob,
I read your posts and I'm confused about your objective.
Maybe NWFC is simply not the club for you. Or maybe you need to run for a year before you can understand.
It sounds like you are saying they are doing it wrong. Maybe it's wrong for you.
They are a group of drivers that designed and agreed to their own set of rules.
As for skill level I met Mitch in Fontana a couple weeks ago. Extremely competitive and well prepared. The whole crew was very nice (well they are Canadian) and neighbourly.
Beer budget,
Thanks for your input.
Obviously I want to be competitive and run where the majority run. But I really don't want to buy a pinto just to have a chance of winning a championship. I can't imagine majority of racers drive their heart out just for fun! I'm sure they all want to win and be competitive ?
I rather a zetec where I can run 5 to 10 thousand miles without a rebuild and still have near optimal power. Unlike the pinto!
It's possible that the pacific series in California is the best place for me without rules and points awarded to the majority being pintos.
I'll chat with Gavin and mitch who have ran in the nwfc and learn more from that and the best direction.
Thanks
I have a feeling we are going around in circles. A Zetec vs perfect Pinto with great drivers will be close. But with the torque advantage of the zetec as soon a the Pinto driver makes a mistake it costs him greatly where the zetec driver can make a mistake and not suffer much. So over a whole race unless the Pinto driver is perfect then the Zetec has the advantage.
If you think you can prep a pinto and win in our series pleases do. But good luck finding one of those super motors and rebuilding it twice a season.
Best drivers in our series are probably Reny running a 95ish Van Diemen Pinto, Mitch in a current VD zetec and Gavin in a current VD Pinto.
Don't sell yourself short mate.
The first thing you need is to review the first law of thermodynamics. The second thing you need to understand is that there is no pinto and no Ztec Champion. There is a single Champion and that is the driver that who scored the most points based on finish position in class and total numbers of cars they finished ahead of. If you cannot understand why the driver that finished ahead of the most cars in class or in a faster class won the championship, or why folks race just to race and have close competition before you have turned a wheel you need to come out and race.
I really don't understand why you are so judgemental about an evolving rule set in a successful series that you don't race in.
Jacobwoo
My advice buy the Zetec. Enger was crushing track records where ever they went. Good driver, car and crew, but they didn't win the championship due to a couple of errors. Gavin won because he was consistent and fast with fewer errors.. Sounds like parity to me
In my case I bought the best car I could afford...cleaned it up, set it up, load it up, and go racing. Am I an amateur? yup!! Its all a negative cash flow but am I having fun? YES!!! and to top that off I get to hang around people that love open wheel racing like me. I have a very short attention span with the guys at work that talk golf all day...
My "friendly suggestion" would be to stop twisting your corkscrew into NWFC rule set trying to find something juicy inside it. Its rather simple and better yet when your an active driver they listen and want your input.
Dane
Any news on series for 2017 - rules, points & schedule.
We are waiting on one more track schedule before releasing the preliminary schedule. Hopefully in the next week or two.
Anybody know where the 2018 runoffs are going to be at? They are supposed to be back on the west coast, and if they are going to be held in the Northwest (probably not), we should probably hold an event there this year.
I heard Sears Point? (Infineon, Sonoma, etc. etc... too many names)
Robbie Arthur FV #67
NWR SCCA Schedule
Has anyone seen a schedule for the NWR SCCA?
I've only seen on the national calendar there is a major running at The Ridge, nothing else.
delete
wrong thread
Last edited by DaveW; 12.30.16 at 12:13 PM. Reason: wrong thread
Dave Weitzenhof
SCCA never publishes their schedule prior to their early in the new year meeting some time in Jan, Feb.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
Jan Newsletter was sent out with 2017 rule set.
If you did not receive the email send us one at northwestfcseries@gmail.com
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