LD200 2.571 14/36 TOP gear set

[pleavens]

Looking for a short second gear for Autocross. Currently I have a 2.125 set which leaves me slogging out of slow turns.

14/36 or something else in the 2.3 2.6 range if it's ever existed.

98 Vandiemen Honda Hewland LD200

Thanks, Phil

[ahowe]

Taylor says it exists... you can buy a set from them for $341. I doubt there are any in North America, though. I'd guess that it is only a staple in the localities that use standing starts.

I've got to think that is way too short for your needs, though. What is your final drive ratio?

Andy

[pleavens]

Yep it's only available on custom order according to Taylor. I agree that 2.571 is shorter then I would like, but with my 3.1 final ratio and LD200 box I have little choice. The next shortest second available is what I ran this year at 2.187, Ideally I would like something like a 2.4, but they just don't exist as far as I can tell.

While digging through videos from Nat's as well as Packwood events, I realised that the "flat response" I have commented on before was due to under revving the Honda. Looking at speed versus RPM we were coming out of slower corners at around 3000 RPM (or less) which is 1500 RPM below the bottom of the best "power under the curve" range in the few restricted Fit dyno charts I could find.

Given this, I decided to move last years second to third, and purchased a few more 3rd 4th sets to keep the shift drops within the power curve.

Here's my gearing plan for using them. I used some of Mike's SoloStorm video MPH data from Packwood events to determine speed values (and shift points) for slowest and fastest sections as my starting point for this. I'm assuming a short shift usually between start and first element, followed by 2-3 changes to suit. (and 4th at Crows)

--------SPEED IN GEAR 2017 -------------- 6600 RPM MAX - 4500 RPM MIN
1st Gear 2.8462 (mph): 50 MPH / 34 MPH at 4500 RPM
2nd Gear 2.571 (mph): 56 MPH / 38 MPH at 4500 RPM
3rd Gear 2.1250 (mph): 67 MPH / 46 MPH at 4500 RPM
.... 3rd Gear 2.0 (mph): 70 MPH / 49 MPH at 4500 RPM
.... 3rd Gear 1.938 (mph): 73 MPH / 50 MPH at 4500 RPM
4th Gear 1.8125 (mph): 79 MPH / 54 MPH at 4500 RPM
.... 4th Gear 1.647 (mph): 86 / 59 MPH at 4500 RPM

As you can see there's a fair bit of overlap if I run into a larger drop an some courses. Also the engine will keep on revving out past the 6500 RPM planned peak if needed.

And yes, there are changes in the works to get the balance under control too.
Phil

[TeamFRD]

There is recent post about the pound to USD exchange rate. Maybe check in GB.


Quickly found this :
https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/De...00-gear-ratios
http://www.cambridgedynamics.com/pro...t-gear-ratios/

[old 59]

I have a brand new 16:35 (2.188) if that helps. I know it's not quite in your range but you may be interested.

[pleavens]

There is recent post about the pound to USD exchange rate. Maybe check in GB.


Quickly found this :
https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/De...00-gear-ratios
http://www.cambridgedynamics.com/pro...t-gear-ratios/

Thanks for the leads. I'm in contact with Cambridgedynamics about a custom set but haven't heard back yet. That Racecarsdirect ad might just be the ticket.

[chrisw52]

man... I use a 14:36 as a first gear, can't imagine why you would want to use that for a 2nd gear.

FWIW, I sold a 15:36 webster gear set since it didn't fit the LD-200, but even if it did, I would be leery about using it since the gear set is tiny and I wouldn't want to put a lot of torque through it.

what ring & pinion are you using? 9:31 or 10:31?

[CM/FFdriver]

Hey Phil,

This is a great idea for you and your FF with the Honda engine Phil, I think though getting data from Packwood is not going to help you, what I mean.. you have already removed your rear sway bar to help with your grip at Packwood, if Packwood's black top surface is anything like some of the sites we have here with low to very low grip levels you may get wheel spin coming out of the turns which then induces oversteer, less lateral grip, slower down the straight, that's not going to help you with your gear selection.

Lets put the National's back in play, what turn did you fall below 3000 rpm's? the one hairpin turn after the slalom on day 2 I was at 3400 rpm's there, If that's the only place you fell to those rpm's.. gearing is it your problem, base on other post and what we talked about at the National's about the handling of your FF what would happen if your FF made that turns faster and other turns leading up to that turn?

Here in the Bay Area we have a great site "Crows Landing" for tuning, not so much for gearing because I feel 90% of the events at Crow's are very fast but with a very high FUN value. If you can make it Phil to 3 or 4 Crows events I believe your prospective may change about your gear ratio's. The Honda may need those gears but you'll have a better knowledge about the handling of your FF.

Ben

[Barry Ott]

.... Looking at speed versus RPM we were coming out of slower corners at around 3000 RPM (or less) ....

Hey Phil,

Could you have downshifted??? If you were at 3k in 2nd, I think that puts you at 4k in 1st. I don't want to start the "put it in 2nd and drive" -vs- "Shift a lot" philosophy discussion again, but well executed downshifts are a valuable tool with any gearing choice.

FYI, I put a 9/31 in my car, so my gearing is:
1st - 13/37 - 46.3mph
2nd - 16/35 - 60.2mph - 1562 rpm drop
3rd - 16/29 - 72.7mph - 1157 rpm drop
4th - 18/28 - 84.7mph - 956 rpm drop

We're regularly using 2nd and 3rd, and shifting as needed. Both pull nicely! We occasionally use 1st on small local lots and we've used 4th three times, including the finish on the west course this year. With the gears spaced "closely", we can often use either 2nd or 3rd to suit the situation. So, I'm glad we have the 9/31, although it might not be the cheapest answer. YMMV

Good luck!
Barry

[pleavens]

Hey Phil,

Could you have downshifted??? If you were at 3k in 2nd, I think that puts you at 4k in 1st. I don't want to start the "put it in 2nd and drive" -vs- "Shift a lot" philosophy discussion again, but well executed downshifts are a valuable tool with any gearing choice.

FYI, I put a 9/31 in my car, so my gearing is:
1st - 13/37 - 46.3mph
2nd - 16/35 - 60.2mph - 1562 rpm drop
3rd - 16/29 - 72.7mph - 1157 rpm drop
4th - 18/28 - 84.7mph - 956 rpm drop

We're regularly using 2nd and 3rd, and shifting as needed. Both pull nicely! We occasionally use 1st on small local lots and we've used 4th three times, including the finish on the west course this year. With the gears spaced "closely", we can often use either 2nd or 3rd to suit the situation. So, I'm glad we have the 9/31, although it might not be the cheapest answer. YMMV

Good luck!
Barry

Yes we could have done a downshift to 1st but I was operating under a "single shift" philosophy this year. Combine tall gearing with the "flat" sound/feel of the restricted Honda engine, and I was never clear as to what was actually happening.

Here's my current gearing

--------GEAR RATIOS / SPEED IN GEAR 2016 -------------------
1st Gear Ratio: 2.8462 (mph): 50 / 34 MPH at 4500 RPM
2nd Gear Ratio: 2.1250 (mph): 67 / 46 MPH at 4500 RPM
3rd Gear Ratio: 1.8125 (mph): 79 MPH / 59 MPH at 4500 RPM
4th Gear Ratio: 1.4500 (mph): 95 / 65 MPH at 4500 RPM

Nothing I can do about 1st (without a ring and pinion change) so I want to make 3rd usable. I now have 3 choices for third to fine tune my top speed at various venues. Ideally 2nd would give me 58 to 60 at readline, but that gear doesn't seem to exist. With 2nd on the short end I will just plan on the early shift to 3rd on courses that need it. I was quite surprised at how low the average top speeds actually are in our cars, from my research I think/hope that these ratios will put us in good positions for doing the shifts between course elements.

Thanks for your input.

Phil

[pleavens]

Hey Phil,

This is a great idea for you and your FF with the Honda engine Phil, I think though getting data from Packwood is not going to help you, what I mean.. you have already removed your rear sway bar to help with your grip at Packwood, if Packwood's black top surface is anything like some of the sites we have here with low to very low grip levels you may get wheel spin coming out of the turns which then induces oversteer, less lateral grip, slower down the straight, that's not going to help you with your gear selection.

Lets put the National's back in play, what turn did you fall below 3000 rpm's? the one hairpin turn after the slalom on day 2 I was at 3400 rpm's there, If that's the only place you fell to those rpm's.. gearing is it your problem, base on other post and what we talked about at the National's about the handling of your FF what would happen if your FF made that turns faster and other turns leading up to that turn?

Here in the Bay Area we have a great site "Crows Landing" for tuning, not so much for gearing because I feel 90% of the events at Crow's are very fast but with a very high FUN value. If you can make it Phil to 3 or 4 Crows events I believe your prospective may change about your gear ratio's. The Honda may need those gears but you'll have a better knowledge about the handling of your FF.

Ben

Hi Ben.

With the current gearing I'm stuck with only 2 usable gears. Lets put it this way, I have NEVER felt that I've reached redline in 2nd, EVER! Crows was the ONLY course where I ever shifted into 3rd. In fact for my best run on day one I didn't even do that! At Nationals we probably should have been shifting into 1st for several elements. Didn't even think about it at the time.

Removing the rear sway was a short term answer for traction that unfortunately introduced a lack of balance in the car. As much as I did not like driving with understeer it was still much better (results wise) then the total lack of traction and precision had with the massive rear bar in place. Chassis setup for next year will include a small adjustable rear sway and other changes (spring rates / alignment / rake) intended to introduce some static oversteer. I want the setup to be more like my CSP Miata that I had to balance with throttle induced weight transfer.

Thanks for your input Ben, see you at Crows in the spring

Phil

[ahowe]

This chatter makes me glad I have a Kent. (That said, I'm going to work on better shifting and may regear 2nd shorter and row 2/3.)

Andy

[pleavens]

This chatter makes me glad I have a Kent. (That said, I'm going to work on better shifting and may regear 2nd shorter and row 2/3.)

Andy

Going to be interesting to see how this all shakes out.


Phil

[Barry Ott]

This chatter makes me glad I have a Kent. (That said, I'm going to work on better shifting and may regear 2nd shorter and row 2/3.)
5
Andy

It's not so much the Fit engine, although the lower fixed red line does come in to play a little, it's the10/31 final drive and the gear choices for the ld200 that makes it interesting. Pete Calhoun counseled me on that before I bought my car...

[pleavens]

Found out from Hewland Classics that they are no longer making this gear set (14/36) but they still had ONE on the shelves.

Bought it.

If this doesn't work out I'll just have to step up and get the different crown and pinion.

Phil

[CM/FFdriver]

Found out from Hewland Classics that they are no longer making this gear set (14/36) but they still had ONE on the shelves.

Bought it.

If this doesn't work out I'll just have to step up and get the different crown and pinion.

Phil

Hey Phil,

Do you have any more events to test your new gear ratio

Ben

[pleavens]

Hey Phil,

Do you have any more events to test your new gear ratio

Ben

Won't have a real NW/OR region schedule until early next year. I'm thinking seriously about coming down there for whatever pre Crows NT event I can get in. There's a LOT of changes happening that are going to need some time/testing to get sorted and I'll be lucky to get in more then 1 or 2 events up here before then. In the meantime I have a lot of work to do. The good news is it looks like I will have the /rear swaybar/wheelbase modification parts/steering rack bushings and rain wheels all here soon thanks to Brexit. Need to find the longer rear links to work with the split sway bar type, but that's about it.

Hoping to have everything ready for initial testing by March, we'll see how it goes.

Phil