New - Learning Curve?

[F1 dennis]

Hi everyone,
I'm new to this forum and formula cars. (not counting being an f1 fan for a long time) I have plenty of track experience in my front wheel drive Honda that I've converted into a dedicated track car, and some high horsepower rear wheel drive cars, but nothing like these f1000s.

I am curious about the learning curve driving this car. Is there a big cliff in moving into a high downforce car like this? I am really interested in one as a casual fun track car, and maybe sometime in the future be able to join some of you for a race once i'm good enough.

This part might seem silly, but...
Can a car like this be driven at a level well below its limits, or does it only behave correctly at speed due to the high downforce? Wondering if there a weird pocket between slow and knife edge limit driving where the car is going fast enough to lose grip but not fast enough to give you the downforce grip you need. Know what i mean?

Thanks,
Dennis

[SEComposites]

I'm sure you'll get many replies to your question, but in essence your assumption that these cars only really work closer to the limit is correct. Compared to your front wheel drive Honda is to compare chalk to cheese. You could buy an F1000 car and you could drive it around the track in the same way you could drive Lewis Hamiltons F1 Mercedes around the track. To get the best out of it would be a very steep learning curve. Even jumping into a Formula Ford would be a huge leap from a front drive road car, and my advice would be to spend a year in an FF. If you drive can an FF quickly you'll be just fine adapting to a winged car.

[racerdad2]

IOW... you can drive the F1000 slow enough to where you're only relying on mechanical grip or truly fast & taking full advantage of the additional grip provided by the downforce.

Truly a big step up from your current car. If you take the leap get competent instruction on the proper set-up & driving an F1000. These are seriously quick cars !

[Pop Chevy]

I think the engines are a little peaky to do what you want, but I could be wrong. I started out in a FC car with the Pinto engine with the wings set for high downforce . As I gained experience and confidence I was able to shift higher and trim the wings out. It was a Citation which I thought was easy to drive. These cars have a very high grin factor !!!

[Kazis31]

I had 2003 Z06 corvette.
Comparing to 92 FF1600 Ray i had as first race car
it was slow, heavy cow.
From front wheel driven Honda to F1000 much bigger leap.
Start small ,work your way up.


cheers.

[glenn cooper]

F1000's are NOT actually classified as "High" D/F cars.
For certain they can be run in High D/F configuration, as many were at the recent Runoffs @ Laguna, but you MAY be confusing these with a modern, tunneled Formula Atlantic?

There are some drivers in F1000 who drive the car the way you described and quite frankly they are in way over their heads.
THAT is the precise reason that many replies to inquiries such as yours get the same response - start off in a flat bottom, non-winged car.

If you can pedal one of those quick, you'll be fine in a winged car.

There are exceptions to rules and I know of many motorcycle racers who are quick straight away in winged cars, and also kart racers, but they tend to bounce off other folks too much.


The mechanical grip to aero grip GAP that you describe is a tunneled car phenomenon (or so I have been told/read!)

[S Lathrop]

Years ago I instructed at the local SCCA driver's school and I specialized in formula cars.

I set a standard for my students in FF that if they could match the FV track record by the end of the school, I would give then the highest possible grade for the school. The FV lap record was about 10% slower than the FF lap record. In the years I did that, I never had a student get that grade.

The other thing I observed was that the faster the class, the higher level formula car, the driver used for the school, the worse he performed relative to the track record for the class of car he was driving. The learning curve was steeper and maybe too steep when you got above FF.

The other observation I have is that FC is about as fast a car that drivers can use to learn fundamental skills. Any faster than that, they are just honing the skill set they had when they start in the faster cars, or just trying to stay alive. I base that observation on 2 decades of engineering mostly Indy Lights and some Atlantics.

This is a long winded way of saying that the advice above is best followed.

Start in FF or even FV. Getting some kart time and then FF would be ideal. But don't start in FB/F1000. These cars are FA level performance. It would be like learning to fly in a 300 hp. Pitts Special. The number of FB that came on the market after the first year of the class really tells the story.

[Garey Guzman]

My SCCA drivers school echoes what Steve mentioned above. I had done many autocrosses, frequently beating my friends in THEIR cars (Sunbeam Tiger, CRX, etc) by 2 or more seconds so I thought I was amazingly fast.

Fortunately, in my first job, my desk was next to consultant Carroll Smith. Not only was he an amazing engineer, he was an experienced racer and had helped guide his son Chris to the 1992 FA championship. Carroll strongly suggested an FF if I wanted to learn how to drive.

So I got the Swift DB1 FF, had it ready, and again followed the advice of more experienced racers by renting a car for the school. I almost gave up because it was so far beyond anything I had ever experienced. BTW, the guy with a beautiful, well-prepped FC didn't pass the school and was even slower than I was!

But I made it through and battled with FVs the first couple of races I entered. I continued to learn and it took me about 2 years to be reasonably competitive in the class, 4 years (and a DB6) before I could win Regionals on a regular basis.

Bottom line - there is a big difference between almost 1g and 1.7g cornering capability. And I'm sure an FB can get over 2g pretty easily. I'd suggest getting an FF (or even an FV) first and if you're lightening fast, you can probably sell it for about what you paid and get something faster.

[JohnPaul]

There are exceptions to rules and I know of many motorcycle racers who are quick straight away in winged cars, and also kart racers, but they tend to bounce off other folks too much.

Why do I feel weird about that last part of that comment?

[F1 dennis]

That's a lot of good advice guys. It's exactly the perspective I was after.
I'm going to look into these other cars and hopefully get some seat time soon.
Thanks all.

[Jamesbe]

Are these that much harder to drive then a Radical SR3? I went from a sedan to an SR3 and after 5 races I was within 2 seconds of the fastest guys at the local track.

It did take about 10, hours of track time to trust the brakes and grip levels but wasn't that difficult.

I do have a few years of experience in fast sedans with slicks though. 2gs is awesome.... Now when I drive sedans they slide everywhere cause they can't do it and my brain is use to more.

[S Lathrop]

I do have a few years of experience in fast sedans with slicks though. 2gs is awesome.... Now when I drive sedans they slide everywhere cause they can't do it and my brain is use to more.

!. You are under valuing your years of racing experience compared to no experience at all.

2. FBs have relatively small tires but have the same power to weight of a Formula Atlantic. Some where in the range of 5 pounds per horse. FB are faster in a straight line than a FA as well because of the smaller frontal area, less drag and less down force. None of this makes an FB easy to drive.

[glenn cooper]

Why do I feel weird about that last part of that comment?

I know, crazy, right? Especially in light of my no karting background!

[Nick77]

Ah come on Glen you know that's the fun part
Rubbin is racein

[ghickman]

Ah come on Glen you know that's the fun part
Rubbin is racein

I agree...I raced Midgets for 3 years and miss that part of it.

Alex was real kind to JR at the start of the runoffs, could have punted JR off and most likely gotten away with it....I had a front row seat to that.

To the original post FB isn't an entry class, most of the time we are right there with the Atlantics. Start in FF and see if you like it, sell it after a year and move up.