FF Tire Discussion: How Does it Affect FV?

[GAC]

There is a discussion occurring in the FF group about implementing a harder tire rule for FF is SCCA. Options mentioned have been R45s, R60s, and DOT tires. All of them would lower the cornering speeds for the class, to varying degrees. Since your class is typically on the track with us, you are stakeholders in it, too. How would you feel about it? Do you think it would help or hurt the run groups?

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

We (the FV community) have been arguing about this for years and can't come to any form of agreement.

Based on my experience I would recommend the American Racer FV tire. It is 30% cheaper then the Hoosier and is consistent for 20-25 heat cycles. The current national Hoosier FV tire looses about 2 seconds after about 6-8 cycles (even with proper break in procedure) and is 30% more expensive. Yes, I know the lap times are a couple of seconds slower with a harder tire, who cares. Its the same for everyone and good for the overall health of the class IMHO.

In SF region we have been running the AR's for 20+ years and they are great.

With all that being said Hoosier makes a great CF/FF/FST tire (R60) that maintains consistency 20+ heat cycles. Just ask the FST guys about them.

[Matt King]

At the sharp end of the grid, it probably makes little difference, but with the backmarkers there could be some overlap between the fastest Vees and the slowest FFs and CFFs. Anything that closes that gap in performance, which is usually most noticeable under braking and in the corners, could muck things up. On the other hand, it's not uncommon for some of the slower guys in faster classes to be running on old used tires, so it's actually possible that more consistent, longer lasting tires could speed them up. So it's really hard to say.

[Bruce Livermore]

I've run a bit with some slower FF's and CF's (mostly) at Regionals and Divisionals over the years, and I can confirm what Matt is saying: There is potential overlap in lap times between the quicker FV's and the slower "Fords". It is a problem because they are of course much quicker than a Vee on the straights so are therefore slower in the corners when doing the same lap times.

That said, the quick "Fords" will still be quite a bit quicker than the fastest vees overall, including a bit faster in the corners though that gap will close some.

Of course it will take an act of God to get the CRB to even listen to a plea for a "spec" tire which is by definition what you are considering. We did a large survey of the FV community and overall got an 75%+ preference for a spec. tire, including basically the same 75% preference among the top National FV guys that responded. When we requested the board consider it, it was dismissed out of hand with the response that a spec tire was "not in the spirit of the class" or some other mumbo jumbo.

If you DO somehow get the board to seriously consider a harder tire for you, we will be right behind you looking for the same for us. That would likely keep nearly the status quo as far as on-track interactions.

You do have one HUGE advantage in pursuing this: There is already a spec tire being produced today, designed just for your cars: the CF tire which is also used on FST's. If I understand correctly, the Hoosier CF tire is now using the R55 compound rather than the R60. Talk to your local CF guys to see how it works for them.

"Good Luck Jim"

Bruce

[veeracer98]

If us Vee guys and gals AND the Ford guys & gals agree to a harder tire there would be no net difference. Other than saving us all money!!!

[Steve Bamford]

If us Vee guys and gals AND the Ford guys & gals agree to a harder tire there would be no net difference. Other than saving us all money!!!

With this said why doesn't the FV drivers, along with the FF drivers who want a spec tire push the SCCA at the same time. If it is heard often enough & as a some what united front from two different classes asking for the same request maybe the powers that be will realize tire cost is a significant issue that should & could be addressed.

I have seen more support for spec tire here on Apexspeed this time around then I would have imagined.

Those interested in supporting a spec tire should speak up to the SCCA.

[Tiago Santos]

The slower FFs that can muck up the faster FVs are obviously not using their current tires to anywhere near their full potential. I highly doubt a harder tire is going to slow them down significantly. For a ford to be mixed up with the vees, he needs to be what.. 10 seconds a lap below the pace at most tracks? Someone that slow is very unlikely to notice any difference with harder tires.. You could probably pump them up full of water and he'd do the same lap times

I appreciate the thought of posting here, but I seriously doubt this will have any effect on FVs - unless of course it brings a bunch of cars out of the shed and increases the run group, which can only be a good thing. The more FFs out there with the vees, the less likely we are to have to run with winged cars.

[jpetillo]

I think there is a benefit with the fastest FF's, as they would have to slow down more so the speed disparity entering turns would be less - where's it's currently the most dangerous. I think a slower cornering FF would be better.

As for the slower FFs that would mingle with us vees, I think it's bad. When we mingle it's because FFs are faster in a straight line, but slower in corners. In this scenario, it's almost impossible to break away from each other. If they are now slower in corners with different tires, that will be all the more frustrating. Frustration is not a good thing on a racetrack. If we slow down the slower FF's, then their skills will have to improve even more before they can stay in front of us.

Between the two, it's a mixed bag.

[Steve Bamford]

I think there is a benefit with the fastest FF's, as they would have to slow down more so the speed disparity entering turns would be less - where's it's currently the most dangerous. I think a slower cornering FF would be better.

As for the slower FFs that would mingle with us vees, I think it's bad. When we mingle it's because FFs are faster in a straight line, but slower in corners. In this scenario, it's almost impossible to break away from each other. If they are now slower in corners with different tires, that will be all the more frustrating. Frustration is not a good thing on a racetrack. If we slow down the slower FF's, then their skills will have to improve even more before they can stay in front of us.

Between the two, it's a mixed bag.

If FF went to an R60 you won't notice a difference if you are a FV driver. There is not enough of a lap time difference compared to 35, 45's or other softer compounds. We are talking less the a second at most tracks.

[jpetillo]

Agreed - a second a lap difference is not going to shake anything up.

[budawe]

We vee folks need to remember that the FF's are running a much softer tire than we are. Going to a harder tire will make a much bigger difference than it would for our class. Hoosier is willing to make a harder tire if the class wants it but no one knows for sure if the "effective" life will change much. I say effective life because if it works out that changing tires more often, like some folks do with the AR's, costs really don't go down. There is growing interest in street radials and maybe that's a better approach.

I could write paragraphs about spec tires but, we've all read about this issue for years and there are plenty of pros and cons to consider.

Frankly, if the ground work, testing and research is properly done and presented to the BOD, it will get consideration. No one understands the financial limitations to entry better than the BOD. Anyone willing to step up?