Vintage Vee classifieds found

[gbmetcalf]

I was looking at the Samba and found these ads:

1. an 1977 sting
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifie...php?id=1178492

2. not sure what this one is
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifie...php?id=1173047

3. a D13 hill climb car with spares
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifie...php?id=1095263

4. a 1968 C4
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifie...php?id=1176805

none of them mine but I thought they are of interest to the group

G.

[butch deer]

#1- The sting is a very intersting car with great history but not monoposto legal. Too bad there is no olace in vintage for cars like this in the eastern U.S.

#2- Looks like a modified D13. Rear suspension is D13. The body looks like a D13 center section with the sides cut off. Not monoposto legal.

#3-Hill climb car has a 1600 dual port engine more suited for solo vee or perhaps a FST conversion. Also not monoposto legal.

#4- Looks ready for monoposto vintage racing.

Butch Deer

P.S. It would be nice if there were a place to vintage race 1970-1980 something vee's on the eqast side of the country as theese cars will ptrobably just rot away in barns and backlots as they are of little value with no place to race.

[Mark_Silverberg]

butch,

I believe the Vintage Racer Group does now allow the D13 to run at their events.

Waterford does allow post 69 vees at their vintage race we had a very nice later Lynx driven by a very nice driver at the July races.

VSCDA has previously accomodated post 69 formula vees at their races - they just do not run in the monposto legal race FV group - any individual who has a later FV and wants to run VSCDA races should contact the VSCDA office regarding their car.

[gbmetcalf]

Butch I'm glad you replied! I agree these cars especially the sting need a place to play. They are part of the diverse history of this class. I re-read the D13 hill climb car ad and they have the FV wheels in the spares package so it could be brought back to FV trim. Does the SVRA or any other vintage group recognize one off cars? The Vee world is full of them more so than any other class with the exception of the sports racer class.

G.

[SwanTechEnt]

Here on the west coast VARA (vintage auto racing association) run 3 different classes of formula vee to accommodate a wide variety of vintage vees:

FV: Monoposto rules using fan shroud/generator and treaded tires up to the year '72 if I remember correctly

FV1: Monoposto rules minus fan shroud/generator and allowed use of slick racing tire (American Racers are spec slick tire) up to the year '72
*rear suspension is only defined as dual shock rear setup, so even though the D-13 has zero roll suspension if it has the dual shocks it would be allowed to run in this class

FV2: Monoposto rules minus fan shroud/generator, allowed use of slick racing tire, and monoshock rear suspension (effectively modern zero roll rear setup) up to the year '78

This allows various vees to competitively run in a vintage organization and works very well, and also solves the problem of special cases like The Sting (which would run under FV2 and would be very competitive) Maybe organizations going east should adopt a system like this? For better information on the various classes contact Kim Madrid who is the class rep for Vee in VARA her contact info is in this thread
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46135

[Matt King]

It's interesting that the beam is mounted backwards on the Sting. Was that a trick to get more caster? It's also got a really interesting rear suspension setup!

[BLS]

"Was that a trick to get more caster?"

I remember when that car showed up but cannot remember what the reversed beam was about. I do not think it was caster.


As I recall, somewhere I have heard that later model Vee's are allowed if they were built substantially the same as earlier models. Is this true?

[Bill Bonow]

As I recall, somewhere I have heard that later model Vee's are allowed if they were built substantially the same as earlier models. Is this true?

Yes, the perfect example is the Lynx "B". A few years ago, documentation was produced that verified (3) Lynx B cars were produced before the '69 cut off date. As long as the cars close to the original condition/configuration and meet the date specified rules, Lynx "B" cars built after the cut off date are monoposto legal. I've heard rumor that Mr. Clark has built a number of brand new vintage Lynx B's

[BLS]

Thanks Bill.

[Mark_Silverberg]

Regarding the "east" organizations.

SVRA could care less about FV. They will tolerate you if you show up and typically put you in with the small bore formula cars. You will probably be running by yourself so I am not even sure what age cutoff they would enforce.

VDCA typically runs monoposto rules although I have seen some later body work on the cars. - groups FV in with small bore production cars. They will get 8-12 Monoposto legal FV per weekend. The key here is treaded tires and and non zero roll (with the exception of the Shadowfax and Ringwraith).

As I mentioned VRG has allowed the D13 - I am not sure about other cars.

VSCDA has remained pure to the Monoposto rules. We typically have 25 to 30 monoposto legal FV per race weekend. This is perhaps the largest FV race group in the country outside of the runoffs - so obviously something about it is working. The VSCDA race series is self promoted and the members work very hard to get interested parties into a monoposto legal car to run in the series. Many of us own and transport multiple cars to the track for guest drivers/ rental and so on. Our membership has little interest in seeing our race group opened to newer cars. We are happy to see newed FV come and race - just in another run group.

There are presently at least 3 or 4 monoposto legal FV immediately available in a variety of price ranges. Car availability is not an issue in vintage FV.

[Mark_Silverberg]

How much of a FV is original? Most mechanical parts get changed out through out the years. The only parts that are car design unique are the frame and bodywork.

Yes, you can buy a new Lynx B frame from Fred and I know that some cars have had frame and body work replaced. Many people will buy new body work rather than trying to repair the old (Fred can supply that as well).

my car retains the original main tubes and upper stringers - but was update with a front hoop and a taller rear hoop. It was backdated to the original Lynx B bodywork with the round nose - because I just liked the looks of that nose better.

These a FV folks - not paintings. Very few cars have compelling histories other than to the people who owned them. My car sat on the pole at the Runoffs in 1975 but that is of little interest or value other that to me and to the original owner who is happy to see his old car running again.

[butch deer]

Here on the west coast VARA (vintage auto racing association) run 3 different classes of formula vee to accommodate a wide variety of vintage vees:

FV: Monoposto rules using fan shroud/generator and treaded tires up to the year '72 if I remember correctly

FV1: Monoposto rules minus fan shroud/generator and allowed use of slick racing tire (American Racers are spec slick tire) up to the year '72
*rear suspension is only defined as dual shock rear setup, so even though the D-13 has zero roll suspension if it has the dual shocks it would be allowed to run in this class

FV2: Monoposto rules minus fan shroud/generator, allowed use of slick racing tire, and monoshock rear suspension (effectively modern zero roll rear setup) up to the year '78

This allows various vees to competitively run in a vintage organization and works very well, and also solves the problem of special cases like The Sting (which would run under FV2 and would be very competitive) Maybe organizations going east should adopt a system like this? For better information on the various classes contact Kim Madrid who is the class rep for Vee in VARA her contact info is in this thread
http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46135

Fv1 has a two shock rule. The SCCA used to have a multi shock and spring rule(2 or more). When the first mono shock cars were protested they complied by adding a second shock and spring which did little or no damping or springing. We used to call them air shocks as the only damping came from compressing the air as one tube slid inside another, The SCCA cleaned up there rules in the early 80's and ended the bickering over parts that met the letter of the rules but did nothing to the way the car worked. That rule change which also cleared up several bodywork and aero issues probably saved the class.
Butch

[butch deer]

On the question of monoposto legal vees there were probably 3000 or so cars built that comply with the time line. I think only 100 or so are in the hands of vintage racers so that leave 2800 Plus out there someplace so there is no shortage of elgible cars for anyone who wants one.
What I do see is the lack of places for cars like D13's, the Sting, Zink Z12's ans 18's , etc. having a place in vintage. Many other groups in vintage welcome other cars made much later than 1969. If the sting went to ELVF for instance would it run in exhibition group along side l990's Indy cars,Formula Atlantics,etc. That would be insane. The race group that would make sence would be with the monoposto vee's but in there own class. The compatability with the monoposto vees would be as good or better than the Fjr. that run in there group.
Butch

[budawe]

The Sting had the H beam reversed for two reasons: To avoid the bump stop and lower the car, and by reclining it to reduce the height of the front end.

[Daryl DeArman]

Somebody needs to buy that Sting and keep it out here. Race it with VARA as a FV2. The last VARA race was a big FV deal...25-ish FVees in their own run group.

[Daryl DeArman]

re: sting and the reversed beam.....

Doesn't it also change the ackerman significantly and get the tie rods out on the front porch away from the drivers' feet and shins?

I'm liking the idea....don't care for the bodywork (personal preference), it looks a bit heavy too, but who knows?

[Bill Bonow]

re: sting and the reversed beam.....

Doesn't it also change the ackerman significantly and get the tie rods out on the front porch away from the drivers' feet and shins?

Daryl,

It's just the beam itself that is reversed. The rest of the components are assembled as normal. Ackermann is the same, tie rods the same. The only difference is the shock towers and droop horns point forward.

[BLS]

I looked at the pics to remind me...

Since zero caster equates to the torsion tubes in the same vertical plane and since only the beam is reversed, I can only see the bump stop (required by the rules at the time) and forward shock towers as any change. Maybe once the caster is dialed up by bringing the bottom torsion tube forward there is some slight aero benefit but I doubt it is much, if any. The car height can be whatever you design and reversing the beam doesn't have any effect as far as I can see.

It does have the steering arms in front, but that has nothing to do with reversing the beam.

Personally, I think it was done because it could.

[Mark_Silverberg]

Butch,

ELVF is very different than other VSCDA races in race groups and composition of vehicles. There also are a lot of more modern cars at ELVF, I am sure we could find a place to run the 70's era FV that would make sense that weekend. If it is with monposto cars I think we would have enough track to accomodate a few more.

The issue is that although there appears to have been a lot of mid 70's cars made we have yet to see any expressing interest in VSCDA events. The present 25-30 car monoposto legal fields started with 4-5 cars 15 years ago and has grown from there.

There may have been thousands of cars before but we are still waiting to see interest from many. They may have been parted out for updated chassis or made into sand raills -who know.

For goodness sake if anyone is interested and has a car (and preferably 3-4 friends with similar cars) let VSCDA know.

[Daryl DeArman]

It's just the beam itself that is reversed. The rest of the components are assembled as normal. Ackermann is the same, tie rods the same. The only difference is the shock towers and droop horns point forward.

It's been a long day....but it looks to me like anti-ackerman....the imaginary line intersects in front of the front axle.

[rbrowsky]

I seem to be missing something here. Is there something for sale? Classifieds?

[gbmetcalf]

I seem to be missing something here. Is there something for sale? Classifieds?

First post has 4 links to cars for sale