F600

[ffrgtm]

Hello fellow autocrossers, I'm having an urge for m/c powered autoxing that I want to run by you guys.

These past two year's I've autox'ed a 1990 van diemen ff locally and had a fair amount of fun with it but I have trouble working the pedals as my feet are a size 12.5, size 11 crammed in racing shoes. I really want to improve my left foot braking ability and that's simply not an option with my current set up.

I drive and work on my schools fsae car which, being powered by a aprillia engine, is a two pedal setup operated by a butterfly hand clutch/shifter. I love driving my schools fsae car but purchasing one is simply out of the question as I don't have the facilities to manufacture replacement parts. Remember these cars are only designed to work at competition so the factor of safety of most parts are at or below one. All the facilities at my engineering school are intended only for school projects so I wouldn't be able to ask the team to make me new parts even if I paid for them. For example the uprights on our car are worth $30,000 if you include the labor... laser deposited hollow titanium uprights

My plan is to move to some type of chassis with m/c power to allow the use of a hand clutch so I can use a two pedal setup and alleviate my footbox cramping.

I don't think that f1000 is an option because I'm not ready to move to a car with a higher hp/weight ratio than my cmod. I'm only 22 and my only driving experience is autox with 6 days of skip barber training at laguna seca.... I simply just don't have the seat time to move to a fb and not learn bad driving habits. I have enough trouble thinking fast enough in my formula ford with a cone gate coming up every 1/3 of a second.

I'm very interested in F600 as these seem like the closest parallel to fsae cars and the cost of even a brand new chassis is reasonable. However I would like all of your informed opinions on a few things regarding the class.

I commonly run at a very bumpy site, with the lack of dampers do you think I will even be able to control the car through rough sections?

My second question revolves around the lack of rear diff. While the rear trackwidth on the few f600 and f500 cars I've seen online isn't larger than the front, i still can only assume that they are driven much like a go kart. I don't want to learn how to drive a cart, I want to work on my "proper" driving technique aka trailbraking down the edge of the friction circle and gradually working back to wot. Do the driving skills learned with a f500/600 transfer directly to cars with irs and differentials or will I have to relearn how to drive everytime I hop back in my schools fsae car?

Thanks in advance everybody!

From,
Ben kroon

[rickb99]

..... as my feet are a size 12.5, size 11 crammed in racing shoes..... Ben kroon

Ben,

Before pondering F600 further, how 'big' is the rest of you? With a half acre of shoes on the ground you might be pretty big.

Now I've seen a 6' 3" guy pack himself into an F500 but he was lean built.

[ffrgtm]

I'm 6'3" 180lbs so pretty lean as well. I wasn't too concerned by it as I assumed that the rf90 I have has one of the smaller cockpits out there. I did see on novacars website that he was building a custom frame for a "taller" guy so maybe I do have something to worry about. However I've sort of assumed that if i want to go directly into f600 is would be cheaper to buy a new car as opposed to buying a f500 and buying the conversion kit.

Is my reasoning correct on this?

[rickb99]

I'm 6'3" 180lbs so pretty lean as well.

Well, I hear you on the rf90. But, I'd sure do a 'fit check' on the actual car before writing the money check

P.S.
You are correct about FB. They are blazing fast and you need some serious racing experience before jumping in to that class. Even if it's racing the FF.

[lancer360]

First questions is where do you see yourself going with this, strictly autocross or are you about to graduate and will have the disposable income for racing? I have a converted KBS Mk7 that I road race and autocross. I only autocross at the regional level and I don't have anyone in my class, but that is ok because the car isn't legal as a FM car anyway. As much as I wanted to make it legal for both, it isn't really practical or at least not with this chassis. FM autocrossers use the wider rear tire from racing on all four corners. With the road racing front suspension, this makes the car over width. I could probably get a custom backspace wheel made to pull it in, but the tire would hit the a-arms pretty quickly and dramatically limit my steering which is already barely enough for our small autocross lots. It is a blast though and crazy quick.

F600's haven't been legalized yet for autocross and there is a lot of debate on how they will stack up to the CVT F500's in autocross. Some believe they don't have a chance in hell, others think they can be made competitive through allowances like a bigger restrictor plate compared to road racing rules. If you decide to go this route, you would be a guinea pig, but that can be fun especially if you like to tinker.

If you are 180 lbs, then width wise you will fit in almost all the chassis out there. Passing the roll bar check for height will be what gets you. Some chassis can be have the rollbar replaced with a taller one more easily than others so take that into consideration.

As for costs of a conversion, it very much depends on how much of the work you do yourself, versus paying someone else, as well as how fancy do you want to get. My buddy Clint and his dad Dan will do the conversion for around $5K, you supply the engine and the car. You can add on options from there like upgraded stiffer rear axle, etc. A used F500 can be anywhere from $3K to $15k depending on its age and condition. A well used $3K car will be in need of a complete frame off rebuild with many old and worn out parts and a $15K car would be a top of the line 1-2 yr old car with most parts in great shape. The costs of the $3K car will probably cost you more than a $7 or $8K car by the end of the build due to replacing worn out parts. Some of the F500 parts can be sold off recouping some of the money depending on whats usable and what is junk. Engines are averaging around $1K with shipping and you can probably sell off some of the extra parts and make a little of that back.

New rollers are going for around $20K, but again that is dependent on what options you go for. A new car will most likely get you on the track quicker than doing a conversion. Somewhere in between a conversion and a roller is buying a new kit and building the car yourself.

Don't let the rubber suspension fool you. A modern F500/F600 has both "springs" (rubber pucks) as well as dampeners (adjustable friction pads). The suspension can be tuned for ride height, stiffness, and dampening. If you have a rough lot you might have better luck running the 19.5" tires instead of the 18", running more ride height, and softening the suspension. I haven't driven a FF so I am not sure how the driving skills compare, but the FM cars can be made to turn by getting the suspension set up right.

Here is a video from an autocross last year. This was cold and a very bumpy lot. You can here my car bottom out in several spots. Watch how bad my helmet bounces around. I'm debating on whether I really want to run this lot this year, but it is crazy big and some of the slower stock classes were seeing 120 sec runs! We have an autocross coming up at the Zmax dragway which is an almost brand new parking lot with baby smooth asphalt and now light poles. They actually did the parking lot with autocross, drifting, and other similar events in mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6maB22ce5xg

[Jnovak]

This is a very complex issue. Here are a couple of questions you need to answer.
1. how much $$$ do you want to spend?
2. what is after autocross?

Answer these two questions & then we can better assist you with answers.

Autocross is a very different animal than road racing. The car setup is much different & this to some extent will prevent cross over between the two.

Now a top F500 car can be extremly fast & competitive in Fmod. We have actually set one of our older F500s up for autocross & it is very quick.

My gut feel is that you should not spend the $$ required to build a 600cc powered F500 for solo only. I think the development curve would be a couple of years long.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[jim murphy]

And we generally hang out at the F600 section of this forum as well as the F500/600
forums in www.eformulacarnews.com .

Jim

[2BWise]

This is a very complex issue. Here are a couple of questions you need to answer.
1. how much $$$ do you want to spend?
2. what is after autocross?

Answer these two questions & then we can better assist you with answers.

I agree with Jay. A lot will depend on budget and future plans.

Having graduated three years ago and since been working full time I can say that budget and goals don't often line up. After five years of SAE it was suddenly all on my shoulders to make racing work for me. You'll be in for a shock. You'll need to decide on what you'd like to do afterwards and be realistic.

If you've got any specific questions let them fly. Having recently made the jump from SAE to racing on my own I've got a good grasp on what it takes to make it work.

[jim murphy]

Be sure that you test fit whatever formula car that you are looking at. Remember that all the items in the cockpit can be moved to fit your body - pedals, bars, steering wheel and seat.

Jim

[Darryl Wills]

Everyone here knew this was coming...shameless plug for my class of choice. You do not use the clutch in a Formula Mazda except to exit the grid. There is a tall man chassis FM that can accommodate drivers up to 6' 7". There isn't a better formula car for bumpy circuits and the cars will turn if setup properly. Nice race cars can be had for @20K and there is a vast dealer network with ample spare parts.

Kudos to you for wanting to stay with open wheel cars..

[jim murphy]

Same clutch operation with the 6 speed sequential on the F600 - use the pedal to launch then the shifter paddle and that is it. F600 is the best bang for the buck. Around $1,200 for a used 600 cc MC drivetrain complete - motor, transmission, EFI, ECU, etc.

Jim

[Will Velkoff]

I went through a pretty similar dilemma the past few months, just graduated from school with 4 years under my belt with FSAE, and knew that I needed an open wheel car in my life after college. To me, autocross doesn't give me nearly the same kind of thrill as road racing does, so I purchased a Crossle and will be running CF/FF in the Northeast in SCCA. Did a 3 day skippy school at Sebring a few months ago and have my Regional license.

I'm trying to do it as cost effective as possible, and I think I'm doing alright so far. But for me the main decision was open track vs. autocross, and it was pretty easy. I'd like to run in the F2000 series in the future and knew that running a FF would be the perfect start so here I am.

Best thing to do is start looking at cars, test fitting, and most importantly have a set plan on which you want to follow. Once I weighed all the options, it made my decision much easier to justify and I feel like I'm doing exactly what I want to.