Sneak Look at Jay Novak's 600cc F500

[teamfour]

Car was on display today at the ARRC at Road Atlanta. It was very well packaged. I will post more photos when I get home Monday.

[HazelNut]

you can run a 600cc bike engine instead of the 2 stroke snowmobile engines in f500? Is that a recent change?

[Dennis McCarthy]

no

[teamfour]

no

To expand...a 600cc powered F500 would have to run in FS class. There is an effort underway in 2009 to allow the cars to unofficially run in F5 at the discretion of local Regions to compare the two powerplants.

[Evl]

To expand...a 600cc powered F500 would have to run in FS class. There is an effort underway in 2009 to allow the cars to unofficially run in F5 at the discretion of local Regions to compare the two powerplants.

And to further clarify, I think the idea is to have them run/homologate as an FS, but race in the same race group as F5. Correct?

Nice looking chassis, BTW.

[carnut169]

[RobLav]

Looks kinda cool. Relatively simple and cheaper fun.

Where does the fuel cell go?

What's the difference in the HP between this and the normal F500 2 stroke?

The exhaust is close to the firewall. Looks like driver will get hot.

[VehDyn]

I agree. Great work as usual, Jay. How much would one of these cost? Weight? Thanks.

Ken

[Brian.Novak]

Looks kinda cool. Relatively simple and cheaper fun.

Where does the fuel cell go?

What's the difference in the HP between this and the normal F500 2 stroke?

The exhaust is close to the firewall. Looks like driver will get hot.

Fuel cell is located behind the drivers back in the cockpit.

HP wise you will probably see more peak HP than your average F500 but less peak torque.

The exhaust is close but we have experience with the two stroke pipes being that close and it does not cause an issue. There is also a decent amount of room there to insulate the area from the heat which we have done with previous F500s.

We are currently working on a cost analysis of the car and my dad will have some more info on that when he returns from Atlanta I think.

[Daryl DeArman]

What's the difference in the HP between this and the normal F500 2 stroke?

Not sure what a good F500 motor makes, but Honda, Yamaha and Suzuki all make 600's that put down more than 100 HP at the rear wheel.

Kawasaki comes up just a tad short on peak HP at 96 and change at the rear wheel.

A good 250twin kart motor is more than 90HP at the crank, I don't know how antiquated/restricted the F500 motors are.

You then have to factor in a six speed trans.

FB is as close to FC in performance as a F600 (or whatever it becomes) will be to F500...not very close.

[Brian.Novak]

FB is as close to FC in performance as a F600 (or whatever it becomes) will be to F500...not very close.

I suspect that the F600 performance will be much closer to F500 than FB is to FC.
Good F500 motors are right at the 100 mark so the F500 might lose in the HP wars but it wins with the extra torque and a well tuned CVT will always be faster than a gearbox.

[Xpit]

Looks great Jay and Brian.
I like the rectangular extrusion in the cockpit . Looks like a safe car to be in and simple to set-up.
Hmmm... now I now why Jay bought that Xpit sometime ago.

Good luck with it. I think you have a winner

Steve

[F five hunj]

Jay,

How much do you charge for those dampers, or just the material inside.

[Jnovak]

I sell the suspension springs (elastomer pucks) for $20 each. I have a ton of research & experimentation into the materials & geometry. The rockers must be designed for the application. As you may note there are 3 holes in each rocker for rate adjustment. They are, obviously soft, medium & hard wheel rates. Wheel rates are quite linear but I can pretty much adjust as needed. The setup on the chassis as pictured is almost exactly as when Brian won the Runoffs in 07.

We should be up and testing in a month or so. Waiting for the engine harness to be modified & to fit the body which is the same as our F500.

There are some additional pics on EformulaCarNews.com
http://www.eformulacarnews.com/viewtopic.php?t=2123

Thanks ... Jay Novak.

[Jnovak]

Ken, the weight sill come out about 25 lbs heavier than our F500. This means it will weigh about 825 with with a 200 lb driver & a little fuel.

Interestingly the car is actually a bit lighter than our F500 in a similar config (no body, just a chassis roller) Even though the engine is about 25 lbs heavier the car looses some weight due to the elimination of the clutches, brackets, shafts etc. The engine installation is MUCH simpler than the 500 engine installation.

The Hp of these 600cc bike engines is right at the same HP as the top F500. I suspect that car performance will be very similar to the top F500 cars. Our goal is to make them the same performance with weight if necessary. The biggest improvement in the class with be the elimination of clutch tuning variability. This should really help competition within the class.

I will post my formal proposal quite soon. Our goal is to allow the use of ALTERNATE 4 stroke MC engines. This way the car owners can do either 2 stroke CVT or 4 stroke MC engines. Our hope is that this change will grow the class with new interest, particularly form the karting ranks, and lower cost.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[teamfour]

First I want to thank Jay Novak, Dave Piontek, and George Dean for sharing their valuable time speaking with me. I was in absolute awe of the quality and deceiving simplicity of this car. It looks straight forward, but I know Jay and crew have used all of their vast experience in designing this car. I'm glad I didn't bring my car to display. I would have won the ugly duckling award.

Here is a link to more photos taken and posted with permission from Jay. I hope the link works.

http://www.kodakgallery.com/ShareLan...localeid=en_US

[preform resources]

The classic Novak design,clean and uncomplicated,strong and safe, roomy enough
for fairly large drivers!
Dave Craddock

[tedsimmons2]

Looking at the rear suspension it appears the rubber piece is totally captured by the aluminum washers and the through bolt. How much droop is built in and can it be adjusted? Thanks. Ted Simmons

[Greg O'dell]

Am I missing something? With the two tie-rods at about twenty degrees to the pavement, how does this system ever move in an all upward or downward motion? I can see it letting the chassis roll somewhat, but if you hit a dip in the track or get light on the suspension, I wouldn't think it would allow movement? As I said, I am probably missing something, but I have looked at that for a few days and couldn't see it any other way.

Greg

[Daryl DeArman]

I look at it the same way. Love the simplicity and cleanliness, yet complicated enough to allow some adjustment, enough so to really screw it up if you don't know what you are doing.

Coming from 2 stroke karts years ago, riding motorcycles for 31 of my 40 years and liking open wheel on a budget, I find the F500 cars attractive. 15 years ago the class was in poor shape in So-Cal so I chose another path.

I like the f1000 cars but at this stage in my life there are other things that deserve more of my budget than my own hobbies....

This F600 or F500 MC alternate motor thing-I'll have to keep my eye on.

In many ways it is more appealing to me than FST and FF.

[Evl]

Am I missing something? With the two tie-rods at about twenty degrees to the pavement, how does this system ever move in an all upward or downward motion?

I think that trapezoidal part is on a pivot where it attaches to the frame. (Although I could be wrong)

[Jnovak]

You are correct Evl.

The trapezoidial arm is simply a control arm with 2 pivots at the links. It is attached horizontally to the chassis with rod ends & the rear end moves up & down with the axle.

Thanks ... Jay

[teamfour]

I watched Jay stand on the rear frame and bounce up and down. You would think he had 8" shocks on the car. There was an amazing amount of controlled travel for a puck setup.

[tedsimmons2]

I don't doubt for a minute the car has wheel movement in bounce. The mechanical ratios and the falling rate would allow for considerable movement under load. My question is about droop. The rubber spring APPEARS to be captured preventing much, if any, droop. Thanks. Ted Simmons

[Jnovak]

Ted, the suspension works exactly like any race car with a conventional spring. For instance, if the car has a 200 lb wheel rate & the corner weighs 200 lbs then the suspension will move 1" when you set the car on the ground & thus it will then have about 1" of rebound. The elastomer spring is not captured. It is just compressed between 2 flat aluminum plates. The stud that goes through the elastomer is used to align the elastomer so that it does not squeeze out to one side.

This springing medium is not much different than conventional springs except that the rocker motion ratios are very carefully designed to effectively use an elastomer puck as the spring. You will note that each of the rockers has 3 separate holes for the pushrods to attach to. The geometry of these holes are such that they provide 3 different wheel rates for the front or the rear. For simplicities sake lets just say that they are soft, medium & hard wheel rates. I use a dynamic test rig to measure the material compression rates & then use a computer analysis that I wrote to design the rockers. The wheel rates are extremely close to the computer predicted results.

Thanks ... Jay

[formulasuper]

And to further clarify, I think the idea is to have them run/homologate as an FS, but race in the same race group as F5. Correct?

Nice looking chassis, BTW.

Evl has a good question; how can these cars be homologated as FS but run in the group with the F500 cars? As it stands FS runs with FA, FB, FC, FE, FM & the other large "Wings & Things" car group.

[Jnovak]

There has been a lot of discussion on this issue with members of the BOD & the CRB. They have stated that they will recommend that these cars (F500 with 600 cc bike engines) run with the F500 grouping.

These cars will also need a waiver to run in FS as they do not meet the minimum weight for FS. However they will be granted a waiver for this requirement.

Thanks ... jay

[formulasuper]

I can't wait to see how registration will be handled with FS running in 2 different race groups!

[Greg O'dell]

If they give us a spot to run with the f5's and Ford's, I am back in with this class. I would actually start one now if it is already taken care of in the central division. Does anyone know how it stacks up here? I ran these cars back in the late 90's and worked closely with Tom and Fred Edward's and we talked about this format back then. This is a great way to have cheap and fairly reliable engines and keep away from what I thought was awful clutch tuning issues. This will also open us up for shifter kart drivers without the big step to F1000 and the cash outlay of the bigger cars. Keep up the good work with the chassis's and keep us posted on the progress form Topeka.

Thanks, Greg

[Stan Clayton]

Guys, there are no real problems running this type of FS with the FFs and F5s. Here in San Fran Region the stewards just tell the FSTs and other low powered wingless formula cars to run in the FF/FV/F5 group. Other Regions do the same thing. Just contact your Region before the event to explain your request and let them use their common sense. The GCR gives stewards all the authority they need to move cars around to get safe run groups. Also, all one needs to do to deviate from the 750 lb minimum weight for FS is request a new homologation form at the new weight. It's that simple. Stan

[D.T. Benner]

Gee Stan,can I run in 2 groups and get twice the track time?

[RussMcB]

Guys, there are no real problems running this type of FS with the FFs and F5s. Here in San Fran Region the stewards just tell the FSTs and other low powered wingless formula cars to run in the FF/FV/F5 group. Other Regions do the same thing. Just contact your Region before the event to explain your request and let them use their common sense. The GCR gives stewards all the authority they need to move cars around to get safe run groups.

I'll bet FormulaSuper is wondering how the SEDiv points keepers would keep track of the FS SARRC championship.

Also, all one needs to do to deviate from the 750 lb minimum weight for FS is request a new homologation form at the new weight. It's that simple. Stan

I'm not quite following this. After a request for a new homologation at the new rate was granted, would they run in FS below the FS min. weight? Does that mean some FS cars can run under the class weight in a case by case basis?

[Dennis McCarthy]

Stan, please explain I'm missing something.

The GCR says FS is a 750 lb minimum.

Your explanation would pretty much render the word "minimum" moot wouldn't it?

[rickjohnson356]

Maybe there will be FSU and FSO class designations, in a similar fashion to SPU and SPO?

the cynic's voice inside me says 'another set of trophies so everyone can get a first place prize for their mantle'. ( will that work for you DT?)

May need to review or change the policy that FS weights are WITHOUT DRIVER. Maybe the F600 minimum weight should also be w/o driver?

Car looks great and Jay has done a fantastic job.

Disclaimer: pot calling the kettle black or 'whiner' or devil's advocate or sour grapes. (i'm really not trying to cause any confrontations, just want to understand the reasoning)

do we need another open wheel class to further divide the open wheel drivers? What is the purpose? FB hasn't had their '5 years to make it' completed and we are adding yet another class (in addition to FST)? I hope these MC engines ar more reliable than the FB motors!

This might be a class set up to bring the karters in to the next step in their road racing career and make SCCA racing more viable/popular for them?

(PS: I am considering building a FST-- so I am part of the problem that I am complaining about, too)

[Stan Clayton]

Russ, out here the FSTs wanted to run in the wingless group and didn't care about points. I imagine Jay feels the same way.

Dennis, the third paragraph of 9.1.1.G.1. specifically permits exceptions to the FS rules by requesting it at the time of homologation. Jay is building what is essentially an F5 car, which only weighs about 600 lbs empty. Rather than asking him to add 100+ lbs of lead to that tiny car, we suggested he request a lower weight when he has built the car and knows what it actually weighs (IIRC, Jay estimated ~625 lbs dry).

Stan

[D.T. Benner]

I was just giving Stan the needle. Years ago I ran my FF1600 in 2 groups as both FF and ASR. I didn't have full sports racer bodywork but the "real" ASR hot shoe had a CanAm car so he didn't mind. I wasn't after trophies but just a chance to race more.
Funny thing was I could beat a lot of more powerful cars and that was fun. Eventualy some guy in a tin top class protested me (no full bodywork) as HE was not allowed to enter in to different classes/run groups!

[Brian]

OK, I don't understand how the lateral location at the rear works. Two short lateral bars connect from the chassis to the ends of the solid rear axle. Why don't they fix the axle in the vertical plane? Wait - I figured it out, I really am slow sometimes.

Where is the rear roll center?

Brian

[formulasuper]

Gee Stan,can I run in 2 groups and get twice the track time?

And twice the FS points!

[Brandon Dixon]

This seems like a very cool concept to me, in particular IF the F500 comunity can/will embrace it and have these cars JOIN the existing class. If so, then I suspect that it will attract people to the class. The cost looks to be much lower than most other classes while providing "driver pleasing" attributes like shifting gears and the sound....

I hope that this is successful!

[Stan Clayton]

Rick, no need to worry about creating yet another formula class. The F5 guys have been talking about allowing 600cc motorcycle engines for years, and Jay has stepped up to try out the concept. If it works, the idea would be to permit two engine options in F5...the current 2-stroke snowmobile motors w/CVT, and 600cc m/c engines. If needs be, we can choke the m/c engines, but as you read here, there is some doubt they will prove overdogs. Personally, I hope it works out for them. You gotta love the thought of a 16,000 RPM mini-F1 engine, eh?