Ha ha.... I was getting my liberal whackos mixed up. Barry, Bernie, Billary...
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I was quoting the previous posts in other threads that persons familiar with the Pro tire said it need 4 to 5 degrees in the front and 3 to 4 degrees in the rear.
The point being, regardless of the precise number, many Swifts and other common chassis will not be able to achieve the required amount of negative camber without a significant cost for modifications. That objection has been repeated by several people who race SCCA races and none of their posts were called out as being inaccurate. The common replies posted were comments that the opinions of drivers with 20 year old chassis should not be considered.
Those are the facts.
Other people have intentionally posted wrong information regarding Toyo's interest, Toyo's commitment, and availability of the proposed Toyo tire. Why did you not call them out and type that their comments were largely inaccurate? It appears that "accuracy" has been confused with "drinking the SCCA KoolAid".
I fail to see where I committed "puffery"..... unless you mean quoting other people's honest opinions and comments from other threads is some form of "puffery"..... Personal attacks do little to nothing to prove your point. Generally, people resort to such tactics when that person feels that they are losing a debate/ discussion.
As I have repeatedly stated, Hoosier, Pirelli, Toyo, it really doesn't matter as long as it is readily available, long lasting, doesn't required expensive modifications to the majority of cars run in CFF, and not outrageously priced compared to the current choices already in production. I've mainly advocated for the Toyo because it is long lasting, readily available, proven in Canada, works with every chassis equally well.
I also stated that I prefer to buy American, but in this situation, the American made choice is extremely expensive relative to the Toyo. Plus it requires expensive modifications that many racers may not be able to afford or may be unwilling to perform on their vintage (or soon to be vintage) chassis.
As you, I am advocating for what I think is best for the future of the sport. An amateur sport that requires $2500 or more in consumables per weekend event is destined to fade away.
As other racing groups have proven, low cost, long lasting tires allow more people to participate and THAT is good for the future of the sport.
As my luck has been dismal this year, i have 2 races left and basically 3 new sets of ne R45s to burn, plus the 1-heat-cycle set on the car. That is easily enough for 4-6 weekends for me. What happens when I show up next spring on 45s, if this rule is adopted, and nobody in SARRC makes a rule that specifies that R45s can run? Kicked out? Run with the wing cars as a Formula Libre mobile chicane? Run the test day and leave? Anyone know?
FS
Is FS a class in SARRC? I am only aware of it as a class in the ARRC. If it is a "class" as in, I would get to run, just not collect points, would I run with FF or who?
FS is a nationally recognized regional class. In that I mean it is in the GCR and you can run it at any regional race. I would think that they would put you with FF but you never know. FSbis essentially a run what you brung open wheel class. Read the rules in the GCR.
This is getting off topic but since this thread has run its course, FS usually runs with wings and things, but it's up to the stewards to determine the race groups. If there are other fast FS cars he would mostly likely be in wings and things. If he is the only FS car then they might put him in the FF group. This all might be something about nothing. Don't they already run FF with some faster winged cars in SE Div events?
P.S. I'll bring this back to the spec tire discussion. If I don't like the spec tire chosen, I'm going to run FS, put on what ever tires I want, take the restrictor out of the Honda and have some fun.
As Jay says- read the rules in the GCR. While essentially a run what you brung class, technically, FS requires homologation as an FS car.
My guess is that any region would welcome your entry and allow you to run somewhere. But as always, do your homework ahead of time and make sure all is in order before arriving at the track. Saves a lot of headaches for all.
Larry Campbell
Campbell Motorsport
Daryl- Maybe you haven't read my posts on this subject. If you go and read them, you would see I am actually quite critical of the radial for the spec tire in club racing and very critical of the process thus far. My letter to the CRB was the same, yet supported the proposal because it is the best option available for the most people. Be as skeptical and suspicious as you want, but it's pretty ridiculous. If I were looking out for my best interest, I would have never helped take what Tom Valet started 4 years ago and pushed for it. I don't want a spec tire, but the vast majority does and I was tired of hearing about it. If I were pushing for the Hoosier just because it's a Hoosier, then I must be pretty stupid to create a poll between two options where it's well known the majority want the Toyo. This is, and always has been an open choice. If you don't like how it played out, tell SCCA and not attack me.
I have also described how much engineering help Hoosier has offered me. I don't have a crew. I don't have a big budget. I have myself. Having as much access to Hoosiers engineers helped me immensely. In 2008 I bought my first set of tires at the June Sprints. Goodyears. They were junk. In the first practice session the rubber pretty much peeled right off in about 4 laps. I went to Goodyear to see if someone could help, and all they had was a couple guys changing tires who said "check your air pressure". A friend of mine had some contingency tires he'd won in EP and asked Hoosier if he could give the vouchers to me. He showed them my Goodyears and they said yes. Not only that, but Bruce Foss came down with one of the engineers and they helped me get the car in the ballpark to what the Hoosiers wanted. I finished 2nd that year to Treadway.
Call me crazy, but when people help me out like that, I try to repay them. Hence, the avatar. That has been there since 2008 I think - well before any spec tire issue was ever developed. If I could have a Farley/Keith Averill/Hoosier/WRD Avatar I would. If an avatar is reason to doubt me and the spec tire proposal, and ignore any of my past posts, then there really isn't anything logical I can say that will change your mind.
PS. Barry Sanders for 2016!
Go read my post where I contacted Toyo and was basically blown off. People made claims about the Toyo that others disputed. So I picked up the ****ing phone and called Toyo directly. The facts are Toyo did not respond. I have pushed for the RFQ to be released to know why. Toyo would not comment. Have you called Toyo? Written to have the RFQ released?
Go read my post where I tried to sort through the BS and post what was accepted by most as 'fact'. Much of that is unflattering about the radial.
Yes, I am aware of the changes needed. As far as I know, no one's car is more disadvantaged as mine.
You said the radial requires '4-5*' of camber. Not true. Hoosier suggests starting at 3.5* and from those I have talked to many are less. Puffery.
You claimed the proposed tire was not produced and unknown. Puffery. The tire has been in production for over a year and has been used by the F1600 all year. It is made from a very known compound and constructed from very known technology. No one else has claimed the tire does not exist, so there is no one to quote that from.
There are enough positives about the Toyo that they need not be inflated nor do the radial's shortcomings need to be exaggerated. Saying things like 'the tire is unknown' only undermines your credibility. It's clear you are adamant and passionate about the Toyo, and that's great. But going overboard with puffery doesn't help and it's really not needed. The Toyo has pleanty of positives it doesn't need the added hype.
.
I have read them.
I am a Hoosier fan myself. I raced in a series that had Hoosier as a spec tire. The prize money was great and the tires were cheap. All because Hoosier sweetened the pot to the racers and the promoter to get McCreary out. They are small business, family owned, American-made.
However, their current selections are not the best option for the long term health of FF.
Toyo is the best solution for the FF class. It is cheap. It is long lasting. It's available just about everywhere. It can be used wet/dry.
Who cares if Toyo didn't respond? Why should they bother? Selling tires to every SCCA FF racer in existence wouldn't move their needle any perceptible amount.
Yeah, more socialism and marxist leaning ways is exactly what this Country needs. Wish I could say I am surprised by the support he's getting. But so many feel entitled to things they didn't earn.Quote:
PS. Barry Sanders for 2016!
Wait...what? All I know is that dude has some serious wheels. Too bad he played for the Lions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKO_9iQs3l8
Can we keep this to racing? Nothing more divisive or useless than political or running back debates
More divisive than a Fit/Kent or Zetec/Pinto, Spec/Open tire debate here?
This tire approval/selection process IS political.
I took notice to the Hoosier avatar and the appearance of significant bias; I correlated that bias to current political events for illustrative purposes. The Barry/Bernie slip was unfortunate but I can laugh at myself and others having fun at my expense. I'm not a liberal with panties that bunch easily.
if the hoosier spec radial, were $100 more a set, would you buy American rather then foreign?
I have on very good authority they will be $760 a set. I checked tire rack for toyo and they were 660. I gladly support an American based company, who is the North American, if not world leader in spec tires. Same reason I drive ford vehicles, they didn't take a hand out.
just for fun, ask some of the NASA guys how many times this year their tires were not available...
just sayin...
know what i'm sayin...
John
Even if they were the same price you could argue they last at least twice as long so that's a complete set cost saved, then you don't need wets which is another set saved etc etc. At this point this thread is just going round in circles of course. :confused:
Ah, I get it. And I'm sure you'll do a great job following the Rush talk show since you're getting so good at assuming correlation equals causation and name calling! You'll fit right in at Fox with all the other folks who can't be bothered with facts! :D :thumbsup:
Garey, this includes all the contingencies and such. if you want some real answers, call Rodney at Appalachian Race Tire. He can also inform you of the current Toyo supply situation as they are dealers for them as well. Scca is not their only source of tire sales.
John
The non-pro radials are about $970 a set including mounting & balancing. The pro tires are a little bit more, roughly $1,100 a set depending on local sales tax.
By contrast, I ordered some Toyos from the Tire Rack in anticipation of doing a race in Canada that fell through. They were $776.43 shipped to my door. Mounting & balancing would bring the total up to about $860.
I've done 3 pro weekends on the new tires (Road Atlanta, Watkins Glen, VIR). I also did the Road Atlanta & Watkins Glen Majors races (the latter on my VIR pro tires). I also ran other drivers at Charlotte & Barber (on pro tires from Watkins Glen & Road Atlanta respectively).
Camber isn't as high as initially estimated. At the Road Atlanta Pro weekend we tried higher camber on both cars (about 4 & 3 degrees front & rear). Car felt way to twitchy with that much camber. Right now they seem to like 2-3 degrees camber and about 20% stiffer springs.
The tires seem to hold up pretty well. Andrew liked the 5-8 heat cycle radials better than fresh bias plys, and he did manage to run under track record at Charlotte (if North Carolina Region's sheet is current).
On pricing, I think it's $970 a set including mounting & balancing for the club radials. The pro tires are about $1,100 a set.
By comparison, I ordered a set of Toyos in anticipation for a Canadian race that fell through. They were $776.43 shipped to my door, and mounting & balancing would put them around $860 for the set.
Toyo's in Georgia eh? Now if only there was a race for them coming up ;)
Personally I am not a fan of spec tires in a class that is not a spec class, but has there been any real discussion regarding using the bar code numbers on the tires to "declare" your tires for the sessions of an event such as done with the pro series? Your choice of tires, just write down your numbers and hand in to tech before the first session, impound top 4 for qual and race, verify numbers. I have no political desires, just better racing for all competitiors. the simpler the solution, the easier it will be to modify as time progresses, and application of rules is interpreted and refined.
$90's the cost of trackside vendors.
Georgia has a mandatory $5 per tire disposal fee unless you take the old tires with you, so that's at least $20 above mounting & balancing. And then eventually you have a garage full of old tires you're going to have to get rid of anyway.
I wouldn't trust the guys that run most of the local mass-market outlets to mount tires on FF wheels. Half the time they like to put the wheel weights on the inside of the rim where they hit the brake calipers.
The local shop I use is a bit pricier, although $90 may be a bit higher. They balance them right for a race car and they've never damaged a wheel.
How much would that local shop charge to do them not at their shop, but at the track? ;)
You can't compare the cost of a local tire shop to a tire company doing it at the track. The local tire shop does not have to haul across the state or multiple states, set up 4 or 5 tire machines to meet peak demand, multiple techs to work those machines, pay for hotels, ect. It's cheaper to have the customer come to you, than to have to go to the customer.
I agree, $90 is a lot of coin to mount some booties, but there is not any price gouging going on.
Bryan, our local track support guy, does charge a little less if you bring the wheels to his shop. That's close for me but the wrong side of town for Marshall. Since he put in a lot of work to find us 13-inch street tires I like to support him.
I don't think I would ever even consider bringing my light weight racing wheels to a Discount Tire type place to get them mounted. Wonder how much liquid they leave inside the tire when they are done. Just not a good idea.
Oh getting rid of the old tires is not always that had. We had the Great Tire Dump at Lime Rock this past weekend, sometimes called the NARRC Runoffs. The Scouts camp out on Friday night and walk through the paddock on Saturday looking at all the neat cars. All you have to do is get one to take a tire home, then they all want one. I bet a hundred of old tires where taken home Saturday. Bet Mom was happy when her little scout showed her what he got.
Ed
Eddie is right about scouts happily grabbing our old tires.
Had several asking about my slicks but they were mounted so I had to disappoint them !
Could have gotten rid of three times the dozen Jimmy MacNichol and I got gone given the little hooligans begging for tires or, as one kid said, got any race car stuff parts you don't want any more ?
Crashed stuff, wrecked suspension, anything related could have all gone away last Saturday at LRP.
Like Eddie says, can't imagine how pleased all the moms were with juniors new treasure.....
I get my local mechanic to mount all our race tires on our OZs or Technos for $10 each or less. Toyos are easy and any shop with a tire machine less than 40 years old should be able to handle it without drama. I like to support local business when I can.
For those that like paying huge money for tire mounting, atleast with the Toyos, its not very often. Personally, when I have to pay to get it done at the track, I feel I am getting better value with "mail order" tires. It always rubs me the wrong way to pay $90 for mounting after I just spent $900 to purchase the tires from the same vendor.
I've always balanced my wheels separately and then have the local tire shop do mounting ONLY. Since I ran a lot of takeoffs I have historically balanced my wheels unmounted. Race tires, in general, when new are very close to balanced and generally don't require much of a difference from the wheel (if balanced alone). The build tolerances are much tighter than street tires. And if you're running takeoffs, if a cheap-o like me, are hugely out of balance relative to flatspots, rubber pickup, wear, etc, so balancing the wheels alone minimizes the imbalance as best I can. Plus, when it comes to mounting it saves a few bucks. I pay $4 a tire.
Mike reading your post I had to dig out this old picture from LRP
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b1...IMG_4161-2.jpg
Meanwhile down under :
https://gallery.mailchimp.com/662f97...Tyre_Flyer.pdfQuote:
Introduction
The Formula Ford Association has pleasure in announcing another defining moment in the history of Formula Ford in Australia.
In 2013, the FFA committee undertook a strategic review of the Formula Ford landscape. As part of this review, a concerted effort was embarked on to reduce the costs of participation to make more Formula Ford more accessible.
Early in 2015, the FFA undertook a review of the tyre choice for Formula Ford and Formula Ford1600 categories with a view to reduce the costs of this valuable consumer item.
Introducing a new tyre for Formula Ford
We are proud to announce the signing of a new, 3 year, tyre deal commencing in 2016 with Yokohama.
The Yokohama A048 soft compound will be the specified tyre replacing the Avon ACB10 for both Formula Ford and Formula Ford 1600.
At this stage the Yokohama tyre will not be used in historic racing but may in the future.