If anyone does, I would be interested in buying a few sets of Hoosier R35s. Since I run with the Midwestern Council of Sports Car Clubs, they will still work for me.
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Why do they have to be new tires? I have a bunch of takeoff tires that have various numbers of heat cycles. But I use them all year. I just used tires from Sebring in January to test at the Runoffs a couple weeks ago. Not sure why they have to be “new” to have value. My tires have value for me until they are gone - Which can be many, many events.
And, by the way, anyone that thinks this process doesn’t have behind the scenes influences and motives is naive. Impossible.
Rob Allaer
FC #52
I agree with the consumable part of your point, however, what is the difference if you show up on the “wrong” tire or I show up with the “wrong” gears, wings, brake pads, shocks or ride height? It’s part of the formula that makes the car fast. Thus the name of the class.
You’re welcome to spend money on parts of the car, just not tires? That makes no sense. Unless you’re in a spec class.
It’s a mute point, however, because if we do go to a spec tire, it will never come back. That is the only thing you can count on. No chance.
Rob Allaer
FC #52
It would seem you're confusing cost with value.
I don't care if the tires are $5K a set if the magical set was just as fast in HC1 as it was in HC50.
As far as the BS about running A/R's at anytime, they couldn't do that without giving up a huge performance advantage, so who's doing that?
Car counts are increased when people get more perceived value from their racing dollar.
The net effect is the same.
There are variables that can be eliminated to increase the quality of the racing yet still give enough options in the formula to separate the wheat from the chaff. It doesn't go from formula to a spec class by specifying a tire anymore than it was spec when everybody ran a Pinto.
You're welcome to spend money on any and all the bits and pieces you want. A spec tire wouldn't change that.Quote:
Originally Posted by rallaer
I just hope that it will not apply to regional racing, if such a thing is possible. That would allow us REally LOW Bucks types to have their stash of old tires grandfathered in for a while.
Or maybe FS beckons???
[QUOTE=Rick Kirchner;611613]Got a tire survey link from roadracing@SCCA.com. Nice to be included even though I let my membership lapse and I'm not currently racing with the SCCA.
1. Do you support the idea of SCCA adopting a spec tire for FC?
Arguably, should have been one of the last questions.
No
2. If SCCA adopts a tire rule for FC, is it important to consider "at track" service in making a determination as to which tires(s) to utilize?
Is this an SCCA thing? With the exception of the excellent Buttonwillow tire shop NONE of the Southwest tracks have a tire shop on-site (with the possible exception of Willow Springs, but that guy is a freaking joke). Fontana, Pahrump, Vegas, Chuckwalla - none of them. I don't think there's one at Firebird or Wilcox either. Pretty much learned to be prepared and self-sufficient on that one. Hoosier shows up for SVRA - but that's another one of their side deals.
3. Do you support the idea of utilizing a radial type tire in FC?
Absolutely not.
4. Do you favor a contingency program or applying contingency funds to reduction of the cost of tires?
An interesting question, but outside of a half-dozen really fast guys, who gives a crap? I suppose tat if it increases the number of take offs and there's a "trickle down" and the performance doesn't fall off a cliff after a few cycles, well then I guess it might matter to everybody else, but really, what's the point of a contingency program when there's a spec tire involved?
IN FM Goodyear provides a pair of tires by drawing each weekend. If you win your name comes out of the hat until everybody wins
over the course of the season. They also provide contingency tires to winners. Not being one of the fast guys I like price reduction
or just some free tires by lottery.
5. Do you support limiting the number of tires that can be used during a race weekend (qualifying and races)?
Again FM does one set per weekend. This in my opinion is all we need do. No need to spec the tire. Just limit the number you can use.
6. If so, how many tires (total) should be allowed for a race weekend?
On set per weekend starting at qualifying not practice.
7. If so, how many tires (total) should be allowed for Runoffs?
Depends on how they set up the runoffs. Suggest two sets with current runoffs schedule.
8. Rank the following by importance:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Cost
6
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Durability (overall mileage)
5
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Ultimate Performance
1
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Consistency (fall off between heat cycles)
2
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Drivability
3
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Contingency Program
4
1 2 3 4 5 6 7
USA Manufacturer
No matter but we should look at Goodyear. FM has been very happy with the tire and contingency program they have with Goodyear.
9. Should the rule specify the size of the tire to be used for front and rear (to prevent use of front tires on the rear)
No
10. What do you currently pay for a new set of tires in FC?
$1300 mounte
Seems to me that this question should have been #2.
11. Does the price listed above include mounting and balancing?
yes
12. Does the price listed above include shipping or delivery?
yes
13. How many new sets of tires do you purchase (on average) during a race season?
one set per weekend
And this one should have been #3. Should have also asked how many events and test days you run - combined with #2 and #3 tells you a lot about the market.
Would have been nice to see the questions about cost, durability, and consistency right up front.
Thanks for posting
Of course! That is why every serious race series in the world has restrictions on consumables, specifically fuel and tires. The more wealthy teams agree to these restrictions so that the less wealthy teams keep showing up. If they don't, it is just a few selfish wealthy teams racing for the lead, then everybody else stops showing up. Sound familiar? The more wealthy teams will always have an advantage, but good cost-savings rules put pressure on those wealthy teams to perform well, or they will get beat. Classic examples are the 2020 Ferrari F1 team and the 2019 McLaren Indy effort. I don't see entry fees being reduced anytime soon, nor travel costs, so tires are the only real consumable that can be restricted with meaningful effect.
How does one set per weekend work? What happens when I f-up first session and terminally flat spot a tire?
Maybe you replace with a previously used tire you have?
Basically show up with any marked tire. Unmarked only allowed on grid for qualifying.
Pacific F2000 has used a tire rule for years.
P16 of their rulebook says a used tire...
http://www.pacificf2000.com/wp-conte...-Rule-Book.pdf
Any news on the spec tires? When are we going to vote on them? :D :ha:
I like to get the tires for the next event mounted at the current event.......or at least get a new set shipped in a couple of weeks before that next event and get 'em mounted myself........that way I'm ready to go at that next event immediately as I'm unloading at that next event.
Hmmmmm......as it stands I can't call a tire supplier to load up before Turkey Trot.......because the question obviously is: which ones?
Sure hope Regional Supps will allow the 'non-spec' for at least one event into the future
The best I can figure from perusing SCCA.com and FasTracks listed......
..........and finding a notice that seems to amount to >
there will be no November FasTrack
......is that the possibility of an FC spec tire being foisted on us at the last minute becomes even greater.
Just because you have an opinion on what is best for the class doesn’t make it a desperate truth. Our numbers have been down for years. I was at the Runoffs in Daytona with 10 cars. I was at mid Ohio with 6. The last 4 years have been better and next year looks very promising. Perhaps the SCCA is weighing opinions from all competitors and trying to find some common ground. At this point, if they think this is necessary, which is still being debated, they need to give all of us at least 6 months for people to adjust.
I think Greg's point is not that we're going to fall apart without it, it's that it looks to be a certainty, yet undecided.
When you basically tell everyone it's going to happen, and it appears it's going to happen last minute, people get discouraged.
I've already lowered my LOA (likelyhood of attendence) to a January race because everyday the opportunity for testing on the new tires is going away.
I was just countering one perspective with another. I believe that any good business identifies where their business needs to be, and steers their business in that direction. The more successful business people do that faster and better than their competitors. Spec tires are inevitable, (atleast a decade late) so lets get on with it. Get any short term pain out of the way, so the class can get on with the long term gain.
FWIW, I say that knowing I could run 4 weekends on my current stock of tires. What is best for me, or any other competitor, for the next 1/2 year should be inconsequential.
How likely is it that the chosen spec tire (if it works out that way) will be the same tire that Greg or Paul have and/or accustomed to racing?
I would except there's some possibility that the purple one might make a FC sized bias in the R45 compound or even R60 compound in order to satisfy SCCA survey result concerns while requiring fewer compound formulations in their road racing inventory.
*** I have zero idea what the "results" of the survey were or what Hoosier has up their sleeves.
What are the pros/cons of American Racers?
Some people have complained about inconsistency in sizes, I never had such an issue, but then they also lasted long enough that I didn't purchase enough sets to represent a good sample size. I never had two tires of the same marked size measure more than 1/4" difference in rollout at the same pressure.
They are inexpensive.
They last many more competitive heat cycles.
They don't tend to hold air pressure as long as some other brands. However, I never lost any measurable amount between leaving paddock and the 5 minute board, so if I lose less than 1/4 psi in 30 minutes what's the real harm?
They don't have as much grip as Hoosiers/Avons.
Apparently, F1, IndyCar, NASCAR, Local Short Tracks, ETC. use Spec Tires ? Seems a longer lasting, less expensive tire would work for everyone ? And.... Spec Racing is rather common around this planet.... Spec Engine. Spec Chassis. Spec Tire. Slight variations in F4, F3, F2, IMSA (BOP).... Back in the day, my local kart track had a very soft, very sticky, very short lived spec tire. Many asked for a harder compound, long life tire be used. The track liked selling a lot more of the short life tires. New tires needed each race day to run out front. We're amateurs... Some wealthy ( Like Trans Am & IMSA) Some, have just enough gas money to make it back home after a race weekend
Less grip is not at all inviting to this guy
I would like to see bias R-35's. I have consistently gotten 9 good cycles out of a set, with the fastest times coming in cycles 6 thru 8.
So I bought a set from Primus when Brad was setting up the spec tire for the Southern Series I believe.
They were marked F1000.
My experience wasn't great. The rears were done before the weekend was over. I'm not hard on tires.
It was a really hot weekend for Laguna (112 and no air movement) which MAY have been a contributing factor.
BUT, out west we mostly have desert tracks and 110+ is not uncommon.
All that said, if you look at the tire options on the Primus website, the F1000 tires are described as SOFT, while the F2000 tires are HARD. I believe there were 2 maybe 3 iterations of the compound. I never tried the hard one.
Wonder what these guys could do?
https://philstireservice.com/shop/nankang-ar-1/
oh, I forgot, not purple.
Still nobody even giving me lip service on my questions.....
American Racers:
Pro - Saved about $400 vs. Hoosier.
- Maybe fall off about 1+ second after the first one or two cycles but after that steady for about as many sessions as can be
run before cords show
- In this Southern heat they're fairly consistent rather than very greasy late in the race
- By gentleman's agreement virtually everybody was running them down South
- Trackside support when running the Series the tire is sponsoring
- Did not seem to 'walk' on the rim.
- A bias tire.....at least some might think that's a Pro.
Con - Is this a con ??? > reduced tire cold pressures about 2 to 3 pounds from Hoosier
- Is this a con ??? Had to run almost no negative camber up front, none in back
- When at local tire shop getting mounted, had to run the fronts up to maybe 80+ pounds to get bead to seat.
- If I'm remembering it > the fronts weighed about 2 pounds more than Hoosiers, backs were equal weight
- Only one or two tires out of about 5 or 6 sets, had to keep track of very slow leak after mounted. If ignored forever all tires
will lose air of course.....but his was either one day to the next or morning to evening same day.
- Just as Brad said, about 2 seconds a lap slower.........so that's a con if the driver is still one of those "I gotta go faster &
faster all the time" kind of guys.........but it's not a con when everybody's running 'em.
- No trackside support if not running sponsored Series
- Rears only made as 8" wide versus Hoosier 8" or 9"
It's been a long time since I ran some Avon radials that were a Series tire about 10 years ago. I bought them the following year when those Drivers couldn't even use them in testing or practice session because a different tire brand was used, so I can't say much comparing Avons to ARs.
I would gladly support Brad and the Southern FC Series by running ARs in the future.
1. #29899 (Formula/Sports Racing Committee) Spec Tire Implementation
The Club Racing Board recommends that the club move forward with the work necessary to implement a spec tire in Formula Continental for use in all U.S. Majors Tour and Hoosier Super Tour events and the National Championship Runoffs. Please see letter # 29339 in October Fastrack.
In GCR, section 9.1.1.B.10. add as follows:
"g. FC shall be limited to the following tires (front tires may not be used as rears):
Dry:
Front – Hoosier 20.5 x 7.0 – 13 60A compound - Part Number TBD Rear – Hoosier 22.5 x 8.0 – 13 60A compound – Part Number TBD
Wet:
Front – Hoosier 20.5 x 7.0 – 13 W3 compound - Part Number TBD Rear – Hoosier 22.5 x 8.0 – 13 W3 compound – Part Number TBD
h. FC shall be permitted a maximum of four (4) dry tires and four (4) wet tires for all Regional, Major and Super Tour events; eight (8) dry tires and eight (8) wet tires for Runoffs. This rule shall be effective beginning with the first (1??) qualifying session of the event. It is the responsibility of the competitor to ensure that their tires are declared, marked and logged by Tech in advance of their on-track session(s).
1. Use of an undeclared tire shall automatically result in all times being disallowed in that session or finishing position in that race.
2. If a tire is damaged during a qualifying session or a race the competitor may replace the damaged tire with a used tire upon approval by the Chief Steward without loss of time or finishing position. Second or subsequent damaged tires may similarly be replaced upon approval by the Chief Steward, however such shall result in the loss of grid position in the subsequent race or session; the competitor shall start at the back of the grid. "
You can download your own copy of the 2020 December CRB Minutes https://www.scca.com/.../52873-december-2020.../download
Can someone tell me the logic of that? Frequently, when a tire is damaged it's because you went off. Not going to be your best time anyway. So why should you go to the back of the grid?
Isn't the most common cause of tire damage contact by a competitor? Again, back of grid?
I guess my question is why is it being made complicated.
It's simple:
You can show to practice on any tire.
You show to Qualifying and you can have marked or unmarked tires - they get marked.
You show to the race on marked tires. Who cares if they are previously marked.
Simple. Reduced for work for stewards and grid workers.
The most common tire damage I have seen is flat spotting.
So you could have a guy set a great qualifying lap and then spin badly [accidentally of course] flat spotting a whole set. "Mr official, darnnit, all my tires are damaged, I need a whole new set". There has to be a penalty for that.
Yep claiming a couple tires are damaged and you need to replace should result in penalties. If not, you might as well throw the mandate for 4 tires per event out the window.
The "pre amble" says Nationals, Majors and the Runoffs are what the rule applies to.
Then in the Body it talks about limiting the number of tires for all the above AND regionals. What is that supposed ot mean? Hopefully someone can exp[lain that.
Yes, but the rule is replacement with USED (aka previously marked) - not a new set.
If they don't have used replacements, they can be marked with a grid adjustment.
Then it all starts to defeat the idea of getting out with a new set at the pointy end.
The tires they just ruined had to be better than anything they have marked in the trailer.
So, give the the scenario where someone has a set of used tires that will be an outright advantage.
The only one I can think of is someone rolls out in qualifying and rolls straight back into the pits.
But then they are at the back anyway.
Or they get a buddy to do that, the buddy withdraws, and then take those tires for the second race.
That takes collusion, it's cheating, and heck that'll never happen in racing, right? ;)
Solution. Mark includes the car number.
Just trying to reduce the work for the grid workers, etc.
Not necessarily. I can have a set of very lightly used tires, say one lap scrub in.
The rule doesn't say used and previously marked, it says "USED". No requirement that the tire be previously marked. When I go to the Chief Steward to ask for approval of replacement tire(s) that previously used tire is now declared and marked.
Marking spec tires is not new to SCCA club racing-it dates back to at least the early '80s in FF and other classes. FRP has been doing it for 16 years.
Never thought it was new. But since it would affect me, I thought the process seemed a bit obtuse.
Its rife with too much obligation and discretion.
But, like my mother-in-law, we don't like to change our ways do we....
So Bob, you should know, is the compound quoted the same as the FRP tire? Doesn't say.
https://www.hoosiertire.com/contingency_rates/f2000/
https://shop.hoosiertire.com/index.p...-0r13-f2k.html
Umm. For a number of years we had the R60A compound in FRP. In 2020 we changed to the R35B, which is clearly faster, a bit stickier, and easier to drive. My personal opinion (and that of a number of FRP competitors) is the R60A is a better choice for a number of reasons, but a little harder to go fast with. It certainly lasts longer.
I am very much in the radial camp; the tire is more consistent, lasts longer and doesn't require the continual set-up work of the bias. From personal experience, the radial does not need massive camber that might preclude some of the older cars. It does require some learning how to drive on it (isn't that part of the fun?). FRP competitors have 16 years of experience how to set up and drive on the radial- its not rocket science and not voodoo.