Small Formula car HST elimination...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Olivola

Just a thought, but what we're seeing now is old farts squaring up against kids and their parents in impound.

---

What! I really hope is that your understanding of what I said and I am talking about driving on the track not bs in impound. When they show up and get in a customer car that maybe someone else did this or that they think that they will as well. I have been at this a long time and have found out from experience, that most likely won't be true.

As for us old farts, for me it took time and money to get and upgrade my car to a competitive level. I have also come to realize that if you are struggling and not a total moron, you might get sympathy from experienced drivers at least so you are not a danger to them. The help and advice usually ends when you start to threaten them ON the track by just being faster. Unfortunately, not everyone is a good SPORT when it comes to that.

Ed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

Club racing is UNSEEN by the general public. There is NO promoting it. Yes, that is what we expect SCCA to do. I watch the TransAm series on TV. Mazda runs ads. SCCA doesn't. Hmm...

---

If I were to have guessed further up this thread where you were actually going, this would have been it.

My involvement in the world of advertising is way out of date and I'm sure someone reading this will have up to date information, but are you seriously suggesting SCCA spend membership money on TV advertising? Aside from the direct expense of placing the ad do you have any idea what ad production costs are? The resulting increase in membership and entry fee costs would make you scream like a stuck pig.

After think about this impound portion of this discussion, I think I might have realized what could possibly be happening. I was quite active at the local indoor go cart track, which was the Autobahn chain. Being a regular customer and I started to do the league races just for something to do. Well that really opened a can of worms between us experienced road racers versus the go cart people. Come to find out there are to very different rules or driving conduct on track. We in SCCA road racing were taught that it isn't your turn until fully alongside the car you are overtaking. That means front wheel to front wheel. Well go cart drivers think if the get the front wheel near in line with the other car rear wheel it is their turn and the car being overtaken must yield. My reply was how can I know there there when everything is fast happening and no mirrors.

So you might want to find out how they were taught to drive and what they consider acceptable. That could be what you are interpreting as bad behavior in impound.

Ed

In 2024 the HST had an impressive 1462 unique drivers. A driver can count their best 6 race finishes plus Runoffs towards the HST Championship. Effectively, a driver would have to compete in at least 3 separate HST events to contend for a top finishing position within the Series Championship. Interestingly, only 20% of the drivers who participated in the HST did so in 3 or more events. Conversely 80% of the drivers participated in only 1 or 2 HST events during the season. One might conclude from this that drivers are participating in HST races, but not because they are part of the HST Series. It is interesting to compare the percentage of FV and F6 drivers who ran in 3 or more HST events to other classes which remain as part of the HST.

2024 HOOSIER SUPER TOUR
		DRIVERS WHO	% OF DRIVERS
		PARTICIPATED	WHO PARTICIPATED
	UNIQUE	IN 3 OR MORE	IN 3 OR MORE
CLASS	DRIVERS	HST EVENTS	HST EVENTS
SMX	65	43	66%
FE2	49	19	39%
FV	49	13	27%
F6	26	7	27%
T3	49	12	24%
P1	21	5	24%
SRF3	217	49	23%
T1	27	6	22%
SM	201	42	21%
GTL	29	6	21%
GT2	73	15	21%
BS	72	13	18%
T4	41	7	17%
GT1	36	6	17%
GT3	25	4	16%
FC	37	5	14%
STL	90	12	13%
FP	46	6	13%
STU	36	4	11%
AS	31	3	10%
HP	31	3	10%
T2	31	3	10%
P2	22	2	9%
FF	42	3	7%
GTX	19	1	5%
EP	47	2	4%
FA	50	2	4%
COMBINED	1462	293	20%
BEST 6 HST RACES + RUNOFFS
COUNT TOWARDS HST CHAMPIONSHIP

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ed Womer

After think about this impound portion of this discussion, I think I might have realized what could possibly be happening. I was quite active at the local indoor go cart track, which was the Autobahn chain. Being a regular customer and I started to do the league races just for something to do. Well that really opened a can of worms between us experienced road racers versus the go cart people. Come to find out there are to very different rules or driving conduct on track. We in SCCA road racing were taught that it isn't your turn until fully alongside the car you are overtaking. That means front wheel to front wheel. Well go cart drivers think if the get the front wheel near in line with the other car rear wheel it is their turn and the car being overtaken must yield. My reply was how can I know there there when everything is fast happening and no mirrors.

So you might want to find out how they were taught to drive and what they consider acceptable. That could be what you are interpreting as bad behavior in impound.

Ed

---

Whose bad behavior? In my experience, former Kart drivers are well aware of the differences, more so since we've added Appendix P.

Ed, I suspect what you described is an indoor karting phenomenon — which to be fair is not at all the same as dedicated karters in IKF, WKA, or SKUSA, and running their own equipment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John LaRue

In 2024 the HST had an impressive 1462 unique drivers. A driver can count their best 6 race finishes plus Runoffs towards the HST Championship. Effectively, a driver would have to compete in at least 3 separate HST events to contend for a top finishing position within the Series Championship. Interestingly, only 20% of the drivers who participated in the HST did so in 3 or more events. Conversely 80% of the drivers participated in only 1 or 2 HST events during the season. One might conclude from this that drivers are participating in HST races, but not because they are part of the HST Series. It is interesting to compare the percentage of FV and F6 drivers who ran in 3 or more HST events to other classes which remain as part of the HST.

2024 HOOSIER SUPER TOUR
		DRIVERS WHO	% OF DRIVERS
		PARTICIPATED	WHO PARTICIPATED
	UNIQUE	IN 3 OR MORE	IN 3 OR MORE
CLASS	DRIVERS	HST EVENTS	HST EVENTS
SMX	65	43	66%
FE2	49	19	39%
FV	49	13	27%
F6	26	7	27%
T3	49	12	24%
P1	21	5	24%
SRF3	217	49	23%
T1	27	6	22%
SM	201	42	21%
GTL	29	6	21%
GT2	73	15	21%
BS	72	13	18%
T4	41	7	17%
GT1	36	6	17%
GT3	25	4	16%
FC	37	5	14%
STL	90	12	13%
FP	46	6	13%
STU	36	4	11%
AS	31	3	10%
HP	31	3	10%
T2	31	3	10%
P2	22	2	9%
FF	42	3	7%
GTX	19	1	5%
EP	47	2	4%
FA	50	2	4%
COMBINED	1462	293	20%
BEST 6 HST RACES + RUNOFFS
COUNT TOWARDS HST CHAMPIONSHIP

---

Pretty clear. There is a problem in that some classes with low participation can be combined with other similar classes easier than putting slow/fast open wheel cars together, so I understand it's not always as clear as it looks.

The problem as I see it is removing classes from your "Super duper series" that have decent participation doesn't give anyone confidence that the SCCA will not just exclude the class from other events. Who wishes to invest in FF/F6/FV when they are being shoved aside?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John LaRue

...Interestingly, only 20% of the drivers who participated in the HST did so in 3 or more events. Conversely 80% of the drivers participated in only 1 or 2 HST events during the season. One might conclude from this that drivers are participating in HST races, but not because they are part of the HST Series.

---

A smart management team would look at these numbers and try to understand why the HST product is achieving such a low success rate, and how to make the offering more appealing to entice a higher participation level. After all, core concept is a nationwide championship... yet attendance is spectacularly low among drivers competing at that level.

Of course, a typical American-style management team would instead look at this from the wrong end, for example coming to the conclusion that a very acceptable size pool of entrants are being spread far too thinly across too many "bins" - and if we could just concentrate and focus things down by externally restricting the number of classes, events etc, then the ratios would go up!

See what I did there?

I'd love to give more examples of just how badly this data could be misused to generate utterly unhelpful conclusions... but I just can't get my head that far up my nether regions to see that viewpoint.

Doesn't really matter to me; I've bailed, we've been sidelined and uninvited from the "Big Show" so it's all academic to me at this point - there are better places to go race now, SCCA just doesn't offer a worthy product any more thanks to thought processes like these.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by E1pix

Ed, I suspect what you described is an indoor karting phenomenon — which to be fair is not at all the same as dedicated karters in IKF, WKA, or SKUSA, and running their own equipment.

---

That could be possible. I have grown up in central PA and am well aware that the few times I go to roundy round races it seems acceptable to get inside the overtaking car and muscle the way thorough. I don't think I have seen anyone penalized for that type of driving.

I have also seen on track even with drivers in their own car seeming not to care and will get mad at you for not just getting out of their way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ed Womer

That could be possible. I have grown up in central PA and am well aware that the few times I go to roundy round races it seems acceptable to get inside the overtaking car and muscle the way thorough. I don't think I have seen anyone penalized for that type of driving.

I have also seen on track even with drivers in their own car seeming not to care and will get mad at you for not just getting out of their way.

---

Check out some serious kart racing. Last 2 laps at 34:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ6gdkQcnHU

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John LaRue

Check out some serious kart racing. Last 2 laps at 34:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ6gdkQcnHU

---

Would the winner get a penalty in the SCCA? Probably.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 924RACR

A smart management team would look at these numbers and try to understand why the HST product is achieving such a low success rate, and how to make the offering more appealing to entice a higher participation level. After all, core concept is a nationwide championship... yet attendance is spectacularly low among drivers competing at that level.

Of course, a typical American-style management team would instead look at this from the wrong end, for example coming to the conclusion that a very acceptable size pool of entrants are being spread far too thinly across too many "bins" - and if we could just concentrate and focus things down by externally restricting the number of classes, events etc, then the ratios would go up!

See what I did there?

I'd love to give more examples of just how badly this data could be misused to generate utterly unhelpful conclusions... but I just can't get my head that far up my nether regions to see that viewpoint.

Doesn't really matter to me; I've bailed, we've been sidelined and uninvited from the "Big Show" so it's all academic to me at this point - there are better places to go race now, SCCA just doesn't offer a worthy product any more thanks to thought processes like these.

---

Vaughn I think that you nail it on the head by pointing out that HST is a nationwide championship. As I see it, there are only a handful of classes which have enough cars spread across the nation to support such a series and there are not enough SCCA racers in the other classes who will travel across the country to do so. It looks to me like most of the classes have geographical pockets of population and competition. Perhaps we would be more successful if we catered to the customer at their location rather than trying to convince them to travel to these expensive national races. The data clearly shows that few are travelling or chasing the HST championship. The HST cherry picked what was the best National or Majors races and it is those races which are driving participation in the series, not the fact that those races are part of the series. The HST was the catalyst for change that has driven the wedge between the members/classes.

I also think attention needs to be brought to the cost of putting the HST show on the road. There is a substantial number of full time staff and part time stewards who are on the road for those 10 events which cater to an extremely small percentage of the membership. We must think not only in terms of labor, equipment (trucks/trailer), and travel costs, but also the lost opportunity costs. What is the true cost of those key personnel being out of the office and/or focusing on a series which caters to such a small percentage of the membership. Is that the best allocation of resources given the current state of the road racing program or could their time be better spent working to improve non HST road racing programs and assisting regions? Would the Hoosier sponsorship money dry up if the HST was shelved or could it be allocated to other events so long as tire sales continue in similar volume?

My wife worked for Kraft/General Foods and one of the product lines she was responsible for on a national basis was BBQ sauce. Certain sauces sold well in particular geographical areas and not so well in others. She did not waste time trying to sell customers something that they didn't want. (Don't try to sell ice to Eskimos, sell them hot coffee.) Each geographical area was catered to with the product(s) in which they held an interest. If we organized and managed the programs/races based class rather than event perhaps we would be more successful. Why does every race have to offer every class? The primary reason I see is revenue; If classes are cut to improve the on-track experience the track costs don't change. Tony Stefanelli has made a good suggestion of combining road racing with other programs such as track time, solo, etc... so that the classes can be paired down to offer a better experience, but costs can still be covered with alternative revenue sources. This approach also helps to cross pollinate between programs and might prove to be a better way to grow the road racing program.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John LaRue

Vaughn I think that you nail it on the head by pointing out that HST is a nationwide championship. As I see it, there are only a handful of classes which have enough cars spread across the nation to support such a series and there are not enough SCCA racers in the other classes who will travel across the country to do so. It looks to me like most of the classes have geographical pockets of population and competition. Perhaps we would be more successful if we catered to the customer at their location rather than trying to convince them to travel to these expensive national races. The data clearly shows that few are travelling or chasing the HST championship. The HST cherry picked what was the best National or Majors races and it is those races which are driving participation in the series, not the fact that those races are part of the series. The HST was the catalyst for change that has driven the wedge between the members/classes.

I also think attention needs to be brought to the cost of putting the HST show on the road. There is a substantial number of full time staff and part time stewards who are on the road for those 10 events which cater to an extremely small percentage of the membership. We must think not only in terms of labor, equipment (trucks/trailer), and travel costs, but also the lost opportunity costs. What is the true cost of those key personnel being out of the office and/or focusing on a series which caters to such a small percentage of the membership. Is that the best allocation of resources given the current state of the road racing program or could their time be better spent working to improve non HST road racing programs and assisting regions? Would the Hoosier sponsorship money dry up if the HST was shelved or could it be allocated to other events so long as tire sales continue in similar volume?

My wife worked for Kraft/General Foods and one of the product lines she was responsible for on a national basis was BBQ sauce. Certain sauces sold well in particular geographical areas and not so well in others. She did not waste time trying to sell customers something that they didn't want. (Don't try to sell ice to Eskimos, sell them hot coffee.) Each geographical area was catered to with the product(s) in which they held an interest. If we organized and managed the programs/races based class rather than event perhaps we would be more successful. Why does every race have to offer every class? The primary reason I see is revenue; If classes are cut to improve the on-track experience the track costs don't change. Tony Stefanelli has made a good suggestion of combining road racing with other programs such as track time, solo, etc... so that the classes can be paired down to offer a better experience, but costs can still be covered with alternative revenue sources. This approach also helps to cross pollinate between programs and might prove to be a better way to grow the road racing program.

---

While this might seem like a snarky comment, it's actually very serious and addresses virtually all the issues and implements all the suggestions raised above:

The way forward for the SCCA is the elimination of the Runoffs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John LaRue

I also think attention needs to be brought to the cost of putting the HST show on the road. There is a substantial number of full time staff and part time stewards who are on the road for those 10 events which cater to an extremely small percentage of the membership. We must think not only in terms of labor, equipment (trucks/trailer), and travel costs, but also the lost opportunity costs. What is the true cost of those key personnel being out of the office and/or focusing on a series which caters to such a small percentage of the membership. Is that the best allocation of resources given the current state of the road racing program or could their time be better spent working to improve non HST road racing programs and assisting regions? Would the Hoosier sponsorship money dry up if the HST was shelved or could it be allocated to other events so long as tire sales continue in similar volume?

---

That is a REALLY good point.

Ever since this whole push to dump the small bore formula classes, drop races and groups and classes to concentrate competition at the top by providing less and less opportunities etc really lit off last year, I've been asking why isn't National putting effort into building the grassroots programs?!??

They're executing the typical American mismanagement approach of thinking less is more, so if we get smaller and smaller, the better it'll be... without grasping that all they're doing is pushing the throttle down as we race to the bottom of the spiral and closing the doors!

It's like making orange juice from concentrate (to borrow another food analogy, no doubt quite imprecisely)... they complain about the product being weak, so they want to boil it down more and make less volume, increasing the strength of the solution.

Instead, I say why don't we get more oranges?!???

They are keen to make top level competition - Runoffs and the like - be more and better and sharper by letting fewer and fewer participate. If we have only 50 drivers in FA competing nationwide, why are we letting half of them come to the Runoffs? They don't represent the cream of the crop, it should be just the top 10!

I say, the REASON having 50-70-100 SM drivers compete at the Runoffs is so impressive is because there's hundreds of them competing nationwide... and even making it to that level, to join the show, is impressive.Because they're standing at the top of a HUGE pyramid.

But the pyramid isn't impressive because of that shiny little gold cap at the top; it's impressive because when you stand at the bottom, the sheer size of it is mind-boggling.

The same way, ALL classes need and deserve to be built at Regionals, at Driver's Schools.

So where does National, who holds the keys to the rulebook and the race schedules, get off on dumping all of that on the regions without any support???? Just a little too hard to deal with, and not sexy enough? Don't know what to do if you can't get a tire company etc to sponsor a school or a regional?

The entire system is the Club Racing product, and any meaning a championship has is based on what foundation it's built on; National needs to stop being obsessed with the latest shiny thing from a sponsor and get back to building the basics, WITH its membership.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John LaRue

One might conclude from this that drivers are participating in HST races, but not because they are part of the HST Series. It is interesting to compare the percentage of FV and F6 drivers who ran in 3 or more HST events to other classes which remain as part of the HST.

A letter was approved by CRB to deal with the loss of this qualification route for FV and FF.

---

I think you are correct, most HST entries are just local Majors that happen to be a HST. But as you noticed, many FV drivers in the oversubscribed Northern Conference were using the HST runoffs qualifying route, doing 3 HST races should have easily gotten them a runoffs invite at their home track. So they took a trip to Sebring or Hallett in addition to mid ohio and June sprints.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Olivola

The way forward for the SCCA is the elimination of the Runoffs.

---

Can't really disagree with that.

I did make a proposal to change the way it works here:
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...l=1#post665547

"The way forward for the SCCA is the elimination of the Runoffs."

I'd like to hear how that solves the problem? Or does it solve a different problem?

I can't imagine you think eliminating the runoffs will cause SCCA to then include FF/F6/FV in HST events. Maybe I lack imagination.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BLS

"The way forward for the SCCA is the elimination of the Runoffs."

I'd like to hear how that solves the problem? Or does it solve a different problem?

I can't imagine you think eliminating the runoffs will cause SCCA to then include FF/F6/FV in HST events. Maybe I lack imagination.

---

Eliminating the Runoffs would return the club to its pre-Runoffs method of deciding national championships or not having a national championship at all. It would allow the club to focus on Division/Area/Region programs which, as John pointed out, have different mixes of class participation. There may or may not be an HST in that scenario at all.

When I was asked to do a study of participation by Division and class in Nationals prior to the adoption of the Majors program it was with an eye toward sliming down the number of classes competing within the Majors. One of the things that proved surprising was the numbers showing only four classes were in the top 10 in all Divisions throughout the country: SRF, SM, EP & FV. That's an indication that we are not as cohesive as we'd like to think.

Another aspect of the original thinking behind the Majors program was/is Bill Kephart's observation that there are two kinds of people involved in SCCA (Club) Road Racing: A) Those with the means, skills and desire to seek out and race against the best competition and B) Those who primarily run local events. Yes, there are those who run more than locally but aren't pursuing the best competition, but it's been my experience that the generalization is substantially accurate.

There's no question there are more category B competitors than A. That would argue in favor of shifting emphasis to serving those competitors. Being focused on the Runoffs detracts from that.

Exactly: ditch the Only One Big Race That Matters should reset the entire concept of Club Racing. So much of what Club Racing is revolves around the Runoffs, everything above the Regional Race level should be completely revisited.

What's the point of a Super Tour? Does the current implementation serve any purpose without a Runoffs to qualify for? Clearly not, since it's only use, by 75-80% of the club, is to qualify for the Runoffs.

Likewise "Conference" championships - presumably those would disappear.

What about Majors? Do they serve any greater purpose than a Regional

What about licensing? You only need an SCCA license to run Majors/HST/Runoffs - I can run countless seasons of racing with SCCA with only a general membership.

If we ditch the distinction of Majors/HST from Regionals - does that ease scheduling challenges? Probably could do a lot, without the pressure to qualify for Runoffs in time.

Etc, etc - every aspect should be reconsidered, giving the chance to re-focus the entire organization to the foundation and making things healthy again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by John LaRue

Check out some serious kart racing. Last 2 laps at 34:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ6gdkQcnHU

---

Needless to say I didn't watch the entire video but if you pay attention you should notice that it seems perfectly ok to hit someone from behind to upset them and go by. In the local track I visited for quite a few years I ended up learning to do so to pass people who only were interested in keeping you behind them. The track was so mickey mouse and nothing more than an indoor version of autocross. I was able to do it without hitting them but just get in touch with them and push them when they wanted to turn and cut in and make the pass. My years as an equipment operator certainly helped.

In FV we have always pushed drafted but I will immediately get on someone who does the nasty-car version of hitting you. You can nicely push without upsetting your most likely friend and both go faster.

Ed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Olivola

Eliminating the Runoffs would return the club to its pre-Runoffs method of deciding national championships or not having a national championship at all. It would allow the club to focus on Division/Area/Region programs which, as John pointed out, have different mixes of class participation. There may or may not be an HST in that scenario at all.

.... (shortened by me :) )

---

Thanks Peter, I see what you are driving at now. It's not a solution to the immediate problem.
OTOH, the old way from when I was a kid seemed to work well, regionals/nationals and the runoffs as a championship race. Maybe that wouldn't work in todays world. Maybe it's time for one level racing, in the hands of the regions, but I do think a championship race is still a good idea. I certainly do not have the wisdom and experience many of you possess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BLS

Thanks Peter, I see what you are driving at now. It's not a solution to the immediate problem.
OTOH, the old way from when I was a kid seemed to work well, regionals/nationals and the runoffs as a championship race. Maybe that wouldn't work in todays world. Maybe it's time for one level racing, in the hands of the regions, but I do think a championship race is still a good idea. I certainly do not have the wisdom and experience many of you possess.

---

I'm not sanguine about one level of racing, but not for the reasons usually cited (inexperienced drivers creating problems when being overtaken/lapped.) It's been my experience that experienced drivers are more apt to take advantage of inexperienced drivers in those situations. Too much history with RFAs and protests on this subject since we started with Rationals and now allowing regional classes into non-HST Majors.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Peter Olivola

I'm not sanguine about one level of racing, but not for the reasons usually cited (inexperienced drivers creating problems when being overtaken/lapped.) It's been my experience that experienced drivers are more apt to take advantage of inexperienced drivers in those situations. Too much history with RFAs and protests on this subject since we started with Rationals and now allowing regional classes into non-HST Majors.

---

Most of the concern around experienced/inexperienced drivers mixing is moot because the former Regional/National license distinction no longer exists. Everybody has a Full Competition license.

In terms of on-track etiquette and rules awareness, I have seen a greater gap between drivers who went through SCCA driver school -vs- drivers who came in via commercial schools. In fact, the situation was better when two SCCA schools were required. But that ship has sailed.