Changes for Pro-Atlantics for 2006

[Stan Clayton]

While at the recent Portland Toyota-Atlantic double header, I had a chance to chat with several Atlantics insiders about changes for the series next year. This is strictly unofficial mind you, and is on a non-attribution basis, but this is what I hear is coming assuming the series doesn't go belly-up before then (which is a remote but possible outcome).

With Toyota dropping their Atlantics support and the Swift 014a getting a bit long in the tooth there will be a new chassis, with Lola, Swift and Dallara having submitted bids. The word on the street is that the Lola is too expensive, leaving Dallara and Swift as the prime candidates. The Swift 014a (current FA design) is not their 'new' car. That tub wouldn't fit the engine, which I'm hearing is a 2.3L Duratec at ~310 hp. No word on the 'box, but presumably it's a sequential 5-sp. The new car will retain full tunnels.

With a target price of $80,000 turn key, it is designed to put the woop-a$$ on a Pro Mazda, both financially and performance-wise. The best part is that Champcar is supposed to release the winning car by the end of this month...June 2005.

Too bad it won't be club legal...

[Charles Warner]

Sooooooooo,

The question could be "how to make a CSR out of a 014?"

[Stan Clayton]

Call Arne Loyning! His CSR body kit fits either the Swift 008a or the Swift 014a...

www.loynings.com

[Scott Gesford]

It will be interesting when the 20+ ex-pro cars hit the market. Cheap 014's for sale. Even cheaper 008's.

[Mark H]

Do you think Cosworth/Champcar will do the engine build up on the Duratec?
Will Ford support the engine program?
What will it take to get more teams to enter pro races?
To bad all the older cars (like RT-40/41) can't enter in C2, that may get the club guys interested, and if they like it maybe they would buy a new car?

[Paddy O'Brien]

This seems like an odd time to introduce a new spec formula car given the current state of professional open wheel racing in the US. Who is going to buy these cars? With out club racers the current pro series would average maybe as many cars as started the US GP last week! I have been a fan of formula Atlantic from the time they were called FB. I have the feeling that this could finally finish off the pro series. Historically, Atlantic has thrived in times when club atlantics could occationally run with the pros and thus you had 40 car pro fields in the late 80's, a new spec pro car would stop that without club eligibility. I would fight very hard to keep this car out of club atlantic,310 hp and tunnels does sound pretty cool though!

[J Mabee]

Is the Duratec 2.3L based on the 2.3L Mazda / Ford in my FSCCA? If so what most likely will they do to get another 120hp out of it. Sounds like its gonna be cool!

[Stan Clayton]

I understand that Ford will provide some support for the engine, which is based on the same engine as the FSCCA, though I didn't hear if Cosworth would build and sell the engine. That makes sense, but I haven't heard anything definite.

As for who will buy the cars, I would have asked the same thing about the Pro Mazdas. Keep the price in line and they will come, so to speak...

[Scott Gesford]

I'm afraid it would turn out like the mazda's. They were originally offered at 69k now are over 90k. Also, with the duratec engine, I would miss that great sound from the Toyota.

[Jim Crawford]

WOW! The posibilities abound. The Toy-ota motor is tapped on max output and appears to be on life support, the BDD Cosworth has more potential but only with the proper transfussion of $$$$$$.00.
The Duratec http://www.cosworth.com has new legs for a long and inexpensive (relative) run. I have read articles about 450 hp and more from the 2.3 Duratec. A stock 2.3 with bolt on parts from Cosworth develops 240 hp at a cost less then a complete BDD head. Racing is about development, improvement and going fast. If we are worried about what this would do to upset the balance of FA we should have closed the barn door when the chassis went to monocoque, or when composite chassis were introduced or????. That horse left the barn a long time ago, so why shut the door now. The Duratec is currently in production and being used in FSCCA as a stock motor with good performance. FSCCA has approx. 175 hp and is turning lap times at Roebling Road about 5 seconds slower then regional club Atlantics and 8 seconds slower then a national Atlantics. To replace a Duratec can be cheap due to availablity and the most atlantic cars may be able to retro fit to use it. I'd like to try one in my RT-4 in place of the Cosworth BDD. Then I could afford to race again.
Toyota $25 to $30,000 new
BDD $30,000 new
Duratec $10 to $15,000 (new, est)
Oh, they do sound good, better then the Toy motor.

[Meredith Motorsports]

I am very curious to see who gets the contract to build the cars and how much they will cost. The use of the Duratec might drastically reduce costs, especially if the gearbox selected is also more reliable than the current one. It seems like the series is certainly not what it once was and hopefully this might restore it to at least some of its past glory. With Pro Mazdas going on shaker rigs and into wind tunnels and all the teams constantly testing, the costs might not be that much greater in Atlantic than Pro Mazda with a more reliable engine and gearbox in the new Atlantic car.

[Mark H]

The Pro Mazda has taken the place of Pro Atlantic of old, look at the size of the fields and the quality and funding of the drivers entered?

Just like Speed World Challenge GT has taken the place of the Trans-Am series.

The only thing that never changes IS change?

[Stan Clayton]

As much as I love Atlantics, Mark, I have to admit that you are right on all counts.

[Mark H]

Well maybe if the CART boys ever get going good again the FA's will too?
A piston engine sure sounds great in a top flight open wheel car... not zoom zoom?

[bill gillespie]

if toyota and swift will not be title sponsors in 2006, maybe ms o'connor should try an old formula from the ecar/wcar days....1600cc engines all rules compliant chassis, open tires, etc.......there are a large number of club racers who would run at least a partial season and there are a boat load of db4, rt40, rt41, 008, and 014 cars out there....a number of builders can still do a competitive toyota, or cosworth motor.........i know all the problems, and i know it will never happen, but a full atlantic grid would be a sweet sight.
regards,
bill

[Matt M.]

Budgets in Mazda are out of site now. The Tubs break easily - the motors in the top teams seem to last about 45 minutes (some not even that long). The size of the fields are coming down - drivers are leaving....... It won't be long before they have Pro FA'd themselves to under 20 cars.....

A duratech with some good HP and can go a season is a good start..... It would be nice to see more than 1 chassis - with some spec stuff thrown in for cost control....

[Paddy O'Brien]

Was there a specific announcement from Toyota regarding the Atlantic series? I just saw the IRL statement that they were pulling support from US open wheel racing AFTER 2006. I totally agree that a new Atlantic series is begging to be created from the club racing class(ala ECAR/WCAR),especially with over 30 FA cars at the June Sprints. I hate the idea of a spec Atlantic car,keep the chassis open and 1600 cc production based motors.

[Dave Welsh]

From SpeedTV.com 6/28/05


"In a brief statement, Toyota confirmed the long-running rumors that it would end its IRL IndyCar engine program at the close of the 2006 season, when the current engine rules for the series expire.

“After 12 years of open-wheel racing in the United States, Toyota will withdraw from the sport following the 2006 Indy Racing League season,” the statement read. “Toyota will not be participating as an engine supplier to either of the major open-wheel sanctioning bodies in the United States after 2006.”

This would appear to mean the end of Toyota’s long-running support of the Toyota Atlantic Championship, first under the CART and now the Champ Car banner."

[Scott Gesford]

[QUOTE=Matt M.]Budgets in Mazda are out of site now. The Tubs break easily - the motors in the top teams seem to last about 45 minutes (some not even that long). The size of the fields are coming down - drivers are leaving....... It won't be long before they have Pro FA'd themselves to under 20 cars.....

The size of the fields is coming down? Beside the oval at Pikes Peak where they still had almost 30 cars, the other races had over 40 cars. I've heard about out of control budgets where the yearly budget was spent already in June. I still like the Atlantics much better than the Mazda. The Mazda doesn't sound good at all and looks like a toy compared to a 014 or 41.

[Scott Gesford]

From an article on Speedtv. Quote about Atlantic's future by Champ Car co-owner Kevin Kalkhoven:


"There will be an announcement fairly shortly," he said. "There will be an Atlantic series next year. There are two options (regarding a replacement manufacturer/title sponsor) we are exploring for next year."

[Al Craighead]

Hey gang,

Made the rounds of the Atlantic paddock this past weekend in Toronto and talked to a bunch of people. Here's what I heard. Expect an official announcement within the next two weeks. The rumors discussed here are pretty close to what is being looked at, though horsepower will like be closer to 300 than 400. Most of the current teams do not want a chassis/engine change and as of right now would not buy the new car. All very interesting, will see what happens.

Cheers,

[Dave Welsh]

On SpeedTV

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/18549/

[Scott Gesford]

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/18557/


That should get some teams to change their minds about the new cars.

[Scott Gesford]

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/18562/

[Stan Clayton]

Well, as I mentioned above, the info I was passing on was strictly unofficial...

OTOH, I was at the San Jose Grand Prix this weekend and got a personal briefing about the car from Vicki O'Connor. The roller will indeed cost 80-grand. Then there is $50k for the engine and roughly $25k for all the electronics, plus another $20k for misc stuff. Welcome to pro racing...

They sold 12 cars the first hour they were accepting deposits, and I was told before leaving the track this evening that the entire first batch of 20 are sold. These are the ones contracted for delivery by the end of Feb, so if you want to run Long Beach in a new car you may be out of luck!

[jgaither]

I guess that $2 million was well spent.

[D.T. Benner]

I was thinking that the "new" car may use the 014 tub but the Swift people say NO,it will be a completely different one. It seems that there will be an Update kit to fit the 300 HP Cosworth/Ford Duretec engine into the Swift 014 chassis. This would create a new C-2 group and fill out the fields. Also Swift said they will NOT release any of the 20 cars to anyone untill they ALL are finished so no one team gets a head start on the rest. With the $2million dollar end of season prize it seems Champ Car wants to see the Atlantic series off of Lifesupport for next year. Without the "Club racers" this season would be about 12 cars per race.

[Efrain_jr]

Over 20 new cars ordered already...

[Paddy O'Brien]

What is the latest gossip on the pro Atlantic series? The TA site doesn't have much specific about the series other than the projection of 30 cars sold, which is impressive. So how much does Swift need for a deposit for an order, is it refundable? What about the race purse(other than the 2mil) and will there be an update kit for the 014?(may not need C2 with 30+ new cars sold). Teams can only lease motors? Can you put a Toyota in the 016 and go club racing? I read somewhere that the 016 will have less downforce than the 014(or my DB4!),true? I figure that I might be able to pick up a spare fresh Toyota cheap by January,how about paying 25k for my "new" club racing 014!!!

[Stan Clayton]

Paddy, give Vicki O'Connor a call. She'll happily answer all your questions about the new car.

Having looked over its specs of the 016a, I'd guess that there'd be no problem getting the tub admitted in FA, but the engine is another matter. I'd also say that it's true that Toyota engines are set to become a bit cheaper...

[Matt M.]

With a target price of $80,000 turn key

The roller will indeed cost 80-grand. Then there is $50k for the engine and roughly $25k for all the electronics, plus another $20k for misc stuff.

I don't get it
So its only over the target price by $100k or so - is that OK to anybody? These kinds of numbers are not going to make anything better - I can think of 2 kids in Mazda who will move up - only because their "budget" is what it takes me 10 years to make..... and none of them are going to set the world on fire.

I think the first year of Formula Renault in the US - Tattus said they had 60 cars sold - Like most race car manufacturers - I think they count an order as any time the phone rings......Same thing happens with VD chassis's

Maybe a 12-15 car field is good these days...... I can't see too many people lining up to drop $500k+ for a season - even with the $2mil on the line.....

Hope I'm wrong...... would be nice to see a 30 car field.......

[D.T. Benner]

After working with an Atlantic team this year I think the $$$$$ are out there. The $2M "carbon carrot" will help and some of the Champ Car teams are starting "Junior" teams as well. The money required is not much different than Pro Mazda has swelled to. With 40+ car fields in Pro Mazda I think some of those teams will gravitate to Atlantics. A lot of the stagnation in Atlantic's (and the switch to Pro Mazdas) was caused by the not knowing IF there would be a viable CART/ChampCar series a couple of years ago. Now that it looks like ChampCar will survive people are willing to get back into Atlantics. My only dissapointment is ChampCar has gone to a Street Race format and is giving up some of the great road circuits like Laguna Seca,Mid Ohio and Road America. As a driver I like to see the ChampCar drivers on these REAL road circuits BUT I understand that the commercial draw of the temp. Downtown races is the reality of todays pro racing. The recent race in San Jose CA was a good example. Spectator viewing was like 5 seconds at any one point (Better to watch on TV) but with all the carny, hoopla ,side show BS even a person who could care less about racing was entertained. The big question is what happens to the Swift 008/014 cars? Will they be allowed to run as C-2 next year? With a Cosworth "Upgrade kit"? The series NEEDED the club racers to fill out the fields this year. Could be "Thanks,now go away"?We will see.......

[Stan Clayton]

So its only over the target price by $100k or so - is that OK to anybody?

Matt, I understand your frustration but your sarcasm is misplaced. I passed along paddock rumor about the cost of a new Atlantic, and made it clear that it was rumor, but it turns out my "source" knew only half the story. Sorry about that. I can't blame him (he's too low in the pecking order). He was just passing along what he thought he knew...and made sure I understood it was completely unofficial - which I passed along equally clearly. Or so I thought...

As for the cost estimates of $500k-$600k per season, I think we need to take that with a grain of salt, as well. That's what low-end Atlantic teams are charging now with fully amortized cars and engines. When the reality of the cost of buying and running the new car sets in we will see 7-figure budgets in a hurry. Mark my words!

Given that Champcar calls 20 cars a "full field", then if in fact they sell 30 Atlantics then they will pinch themselves with joy! Such a deal! Ironically, this will be a boon to the Pro Mazda guys. The teams who are throwing money at PM like there is no tomorrow will jump ship for Atlantics (a couple already have - PM just doesn't know it yet), leaving more rational budgets for the remaining teams. I can hear the collective sigh of relief already!

The big question is what happens to the Swift 008/014 cars? Will they be allowed to run as C-2 next year? With a Cosworth "Upgrade kit"? The series NEEDED the club racers to fill out the fields this year. Could be "Thanks,now go away"?We will see.......

If they "really" sell 20 (never mind 30!) Atlantics there will be no C2 class next year. I feel that was always a fall-back position in case they only sold a handful of the new cars. Even this year the number of C1 cars has steadily increased as folks have realized that Champcar and Atlantics are going to survive. Remember that there were only 8 C1's at Long Beach. By San Jose there were 15, plus the usual 6 C2's. The series will permit C2 cars to run to the end of this season to assure good numbers in the races, but with sales jumping for the new cars...well, like you said Darrell, "Thanks, now go away!"

That's my take on the situation...

Cheers! Stan

[Matt M.]

Stan - Wasn't directed toward you......Thats why I took your name out of the quote.....I didn't want to type all that again.......Sorry about that......

I heard the same target price - and I heard that 2 other Manf had cars already built for the cosworth to be installed(something that is not widely known).... and the target price was $80k turn key....... It amazing to me that the thing turned around into something for an additional $100k....... It's crazy - There are people for sure that will step up to the plate - but not as many (and maybe thats what they wanted ).... And my guess is the CART teams will get huge breaks for setting up jr teams........ They only allowed the C2's after CART told them to up the count or get axed. My gripes go on and on...... But I'd love to do just one race ......

On the budget - I think your correct - in no time the budgets will go 7 fig's - For that kind of cake a person would be better served in the european system..... We'll also see some of the "lesser known" euros with money invading Atlantics.....(yes, like now).

Bottom line is - not the direction I wish they headed in......

[D.T. Benner]

Sad to say it but "How fast do you want to go?-How much money have you got?" is a big part of Pro racing.

[Stan Clayton]

Not to worry, Matt...no offence taken.

While I am happy to see that Atlantics appear to be back on their feet, I just hope that they don't become victims of their own success. Under the old two-tier system Atlantics was supposed to cost half a mil with Lights charging a full bill. Over the years team owners kept jacking up the price of rental rides in the face of the deep pockets of "sugar daddy" teams who could spend whatever it took to win. As Darrell says, if you want to go fast it costs money. And it's no difference in club racing. We all spend every dime we can to gao as fast as we can.

We shall see!