Fastrak Zetec Proposal

[Bob Wright]

I might add something about forests and trees....the cost effectiveness of FC (also FF, FV) and what you get out of it is light years ahead of many other SCCA classes. People complain about engine cost, but even the pinto is cheap compared to a DSR, CSR, FA, GT1, etc. engine. Yes, we have costs, and addons, and tweak of the week- but ask a front runner what it costs to prepare a showroom stock car these days, or the maintanence cost of a GT1. I continue to believe the FC class gives the best bang for the buck of any racing I know.

We're not trying to change what FC is, nor eliminate someone's ability to buy a "real race car" for $9,000-14,000 and successfully compete at the regional level for less than $1,000 a weekend- It can be done now, and that won't change if this proposal is implimented. We are trying to assure and enhance the viability and growth of the class for the future. As of the last two years, it has stopped growing.

[Thomas Copeland]

You are absolutely right on Rick.

I've bought two ex-pro cars and both required extensive (EXTENSIVE!!) work just to get them on the track let alone be competitive. You can't imagine the amount of short cuts some pro teams do just so they can make "the race". Years later when the car gets sold for the 3rd or 4th time you'd be amazed at how many of these short cut fixes are still on the car. Gaskets replaced with silicone goo are my favorite! I've come to realized that no matter where I aquire the car it'll require almost a complete tear-down before I can race it just to find out where all the fluid is leaking from.

Any way ya slice it, making a pro car work in FC is going to require some investment by the buyer. There is no such thing as a "turn-key" car in racing.

I've changed just about everything on my car at one time or another and it was already in the FC configuration when I bought it.

[Scott Gesford]

A question I have is the on-track testing. How can a valid comparison be done unless the Zetec engined car is in the spec of a top-notch national winning car? I mean killer shocks, diffuser, wings, wheels. If you take a pro car and throw a restrictor on it and change the map it won't be a valid test. Once the top national guys do the conversion and plug a Zetec into their cars, the test will be meaningless and I can see the Zetec having an immediate advantage. I don't think the weight difference will have the desired effect. I wonder how many Pinto cars weigh in close to the minimum. If the driver is over 200 lbs, it gets tough to do. Just dyno them to have about 140 hp and let's go. That way the Pinto guys don't need an absolute killer engine to stay competitive. I bet it would be pretty close.

The information that Dona and Baytos have said about the conversion costs and the lack of cars available make me really question the whole thing more.

[D.T. Benner]

OK how about two classes in FC? FC-P and FC-Z, Nobodies sacred cow get gored?

[Chas Shaffer]

Scott,
This team has worked very hard to develop this proposal. We intentionally did not take the approach of "just go have at it". We are extremely serious about this and want to do the best job possible. That is why we will not just dyno it for 140 hp and go at it.

Of course we considered that track testing of the pinto and zetec cars would require very similar setups. It's not that hard. Swapping shocks, and tires is a 5 minute job. Everything is bolt on (wings, diffusers, etc). We will make every effort to equalize the setups when performing track validations.

My car is right at weight and I weigh 200 lbs. If you are a second or more off the pace then yes 50 lbs will make little difference on your lap time but if you are running comptetitive times 10-20 lbs is a huge disadvantage. 4 gals of gas at Summit is the difference between an 11.2 and 11.8. I have lots of data to support.

This discussion is not about car parts so I don't want to go to far with this but I have to ask, when is the last time you paid $4k for a nose. I have 3 noses and 5 sets of wheels and I don't have $4k in all my noses and wheels combined including the paint jobs. Remember my car is a converted Zetec, I'm speaking from first hand experience. What hasn't been mentioned is if you buy a pro car you can sell the stuff you don't want or need like noses and shocks. I made $1500 when I sold my dynamics and bought Penske's.

[Scott Gesford]

I know a lot of time went into this and it is very well written. What could this group accomplished if they would have spent this time working with the current engine. Getting an aluminum head approved would solve a lot. No one wants to buy a new car made for a Pinto but if/when the Zetec thing goes thru, suddenly people will buy one for 49k. If you think my comment about just setting the Zetec to 140hp and go at it is bad, how about the comment 'It's been about 3 years, it's time they did something' That's a classic.

[KevinFirlein]

if you want zetecs is FC why cripple them to be completely uncompetitive ? My understanding was that during all the research you talked to a programmer who said he could nearly match the pinto dyno curves spot on. If thats the case why put an extra 50 pounds on them ? Thats a massive amount of weight. Not to mention bringing them in at the perofrmance of a bad pinto.bringing cars in as second class citizens isnt going to improve the class or racing. Just going to add a bunch of slug cars to the mix.

It also creates alot of pissed off people if they feel scca isnt reacting fast enough. Just ask the comp board about all the pissed off people racing limited prep production cars.

Basically whats being asked here is for the zetec guys running in FA to restrict their cars and come race FC to inflate the car count. Why ? So they can spend the same amount of money they are now on racing, go slower then they are now, and not be any more competitive ? That doesnt sound real attractive to me.

If the curves can be matched, just add the weight penalty every other class has for Fuel injection ( 25 pounds ) and lets go racing.

SCCA moves slowly because of its member size. Everybody wants and expects something different. Once any proposal gets approved by the board of directors for a rule change its not that easy to get it changed a second, third, or 4th time.

Kevin

[R Silver]

Kevin, the proposal has a specific time frame in it to evaluate performance and make competition adjustments. The combination of the weight penalty and the restrictor was to ensure we did not make the disastorous mistake of allowing a superior engine into the class. The idea is for it to be EQUAL after a two year period with 4 competition adjustments. The combination of a weight penalty and restrictor was chosen to allow us to make a weight adjustment half way through '06 and a mapping/restirctor change, as required, at the end of '06. This will be followed by a similar set of performance adjustments in '07, with the intention of having as nearly an equal formula as possible by the end of '07. This was done to ensure we did not comprimise the pinto competitiveness. These adjustments dates are firmly a part of the proposal. In the end, it is my opinion that a 25 lb penalty for FI will be the end result and save us some money on the lightening game.

I have dyno curves and these were submitted to the comp board. I will check into getting these posted on the SCCA web site. The dyno curves show a typical good Pinto overlaid with the proposed starting point mapping and restrictor. The Pinto motor is about 4 1/2 to 5 HP up on the Zetec around 6400 RPM and they are about equal in HP at about 5400 RPM. The torque is nearly equal at 5400 RPM and obviously the Pinto has more higher end torque. With the weight penalty, the Pinto should still have a slight advantage as low as 5000 RPM. Chas did speak to an independent programmer who was confident we could make the dyno curves overlay nearly exactly, and QSRE has shown the same thing.

Scott, one of the main advantages and points of the proposal is that a new Zetec head is under $1000.00 race ready. A complete Zetec long block can be bought today for $1000.00 race ready. An aluminum head for a FF is $3200.00. As a group we support the Pinto updates, but we need to get away from $3200.00 flowed and ported heads, and the cost for a prepped pinto head has just gone up. It is prohibited in the proposed rules to port or polish the head. You cannot touch the bottom end except to re-ring it and the block may not be sleeved. This cuts a huge amount of cost from the engine preparation. Also, the Zetec heads and motors are consistently within 2 HP on the dyno. they are much closer to one another due to the improved machining and manufacturing tolerances. Our engines will be much closer and the "killer" engine concept will disappear, just as it has in the pro series.

-Rick

[Chris Dona]

Hi Douglas, I understand it takes $ to be competitive and the more you have the better, same with spare time. I prefer to not spend my $ on the latest hot parts and new tires every 50-100 miles but rather spend it on track time and testing and working on setups etc.

Hi Rick, First of very nice run from the back to 3rd at NHIS, the SCCA really screwed you on that one. All good points I agree on the list of updates you've made over the past 5 years, completely updating a Zetec at once to current FC "standards" is a little different, will give you a call later this week when things let up at work.

Chas, the last time I paid $4K for a nose was in 01 when I demolished mine testing at LRP, maybe prices have changed?, nose box $1800, main planes $540x2, end plate setup, $150x2, flaps $350x2, nose box cover $200, shock cover $300... There were many used ones around in 03 & 04 with the Zetec conversions going on but I don't see that supply lasting. Ditto for 6/8" OZ's there were plenty last Spring and I'm glad you scooped them up cheap, you obviously made some excellent deals to get 3 complete noses and 5 sets of wheels for <$4K! I am sure the group has carefully considered the on track testing and it is probably the most important item to ensure the current participants are not driven off, I am confident it will be handled properly.

I hope my comments are considered constructive from someone who runs a Zetec and former Nat'l FC competitor. Just looking at the situation through my eyes...

Regards,
Chris

[Rick Silver]

We are likely to only have one shot to allow the Zetec into FC. SCCA members with an interest need to write their letters of support or opposition. This is essential for the BoD or Comp Board to make a decision based on member input. Time is limited and input must be sent very soon if this is going to happen for 2006. Very few letters have been sent.

The key points of the proposal are:

1) To make the Zetec engine and pinto equal in performance over two years.

2) To not compromise the pinto competitiveness, the pinto must remain nationally competitive.

3) There are no other rule changes to FC other than to allow the zetec engine.

The best way to give your input is to send an email to the comp board at:

crb@scca.com

Saying:

“I support the proposal to allow the zetec into FC. I am in favor of the options recommended in the proposal for the engine and the ECU approach.”


If you are in favor of allowing the zetec but feel strongly about sealed engines, a password protected ECU or any other options or changes to the proposal, than send those comments. You can vote for the proposal with recommended changes, the details are not set in stone at this point.


Or send an email in opposition.

-Rick

[Dave Gomberg]

Let me add this to what Rick said: given the CRB's meeting schedule, if they consider the proposal at their next meeting, your input must be received no later than June 1. That is just over a week from now. Make your opinion known (one way or the other) now. We have received fewer than 10 responses so far.

Dave

[Rick Silver]

One additional comment:

FC has always been an open chassis formula. It seems highly unlikely to me that the current FC owners and SCCA management will ever allow a restricted pro spec zetec car in the FC class with wider wheels, spec tires, spec shocks etc. In that trim it is a very different car and a different formula. I can imagine a lot of resistance from many pinto car owners and little chance of consensus with this approach.

With the FSCCA car growing in numbers I personally find it hard to believe that the SCCA would ever create new classes for both FSCCA and the Zetec pro car any time in the near future, especially with the similarities between the zetec and pinto chassis. It seems to me that the zetec cars will be running in FA at a huge disadvantage for the foreseeable future. The only chance to race the zetec engined cars competitively in the SCCA any time in the near future is as proposed with perhaps some minor modifications.

The zetec and pinto engines can be equalized to within 2 or 3 HP across the useable RPM range, which is closer than many current pinto engines. Also, the 50 pound weight penalty is a temporary weight penalty, intended to be reduced or removed.

[Scott Hutchison]

Dave-

It's hard for me to believe that the SCCA has received fewer than 10 responses so far. I sent my response in awhile ago and just from the people I know there should've been well more than 10 responses. What gives??

Every SCCA member who races a FC or Zetec should be responding to the board's proposal.

[Dave Gomberg]

Scott:

I can tell you that as of two minutes ago, there is now a total of 13 responses (a few came in today). I cannot tell you why we haven't gotten more responses, but sometimes people say they have (or will) send a response (with every intention of doing so), but then they forget to follow through.

Dave

[Dennis Goughary]

Make your opinion known (one way or the other) now. We have received fewer than 10 responses so far.

Dave

I emailed the CRB in support of the proposal a couple of weeks ago and received an email response confirming they'd received it a couple days later.

[Thomas Copeland]

I didn't realize this was coming up so fast to the CRB so I've been lazy getting my letter out. Thanks for the heads up. I will mail my letter out by tomorrow. Guarantee.

[John LaRue]

For what it is worth, I have sent a brief message to the CRB in support of your proposal. I believe it is well reasoned and forward looking. This would certainly be enticing! Nice job guys.

John LaRue

[Jeff Owens]

Whether you are for or against the Zetec "equalization", Voice your opinion, I am one of the 13 they have. They send you an automated reply letting you know that they have received your mail. Please do not be the one to complain when the decision is made and you did not make your plea

[jonbaytos]

13 letters,once upon a time a former comp board chairman that shall remain nameless told me that the FC crowd were the worst letter writers in the club.I guess Phil was right.Shoot, was'nt there 13 people involved in producing the proposal?Strange,with all the passionate chatter about this topic on this board it would seem that a lot of folks just don't care.I personally believe that the level of complacency amongst the FC crowd is such that nothing will come from all this.After all this "is the clubs 3rd largest class".Watch this # at the end of 06' I remember back in 94'Ralph Firman had the vision so far into the future that he built his own sequential gearbox to be introduced as standard equipment on the 95 Ford 2000 chassis.This unit incorperated both the gearbox and oil tank into one unit and both were the same price of the ld-200.Totally legal when he produced it the comp board quickly found a way to ban it.There claim then was it would obsolete too many chassis,and that sequential boxes would never be affordable in a junior formula car!Look what we have now we are the only junior formula that does'nt have one.Thank's to the fact that the comp board had there way because nobody wrote a blinkin letter.We still sold 60 + chassis but the formula and it's competiters missed the opp to forward the package.

[Alan R Guibord]

I posted my response with the board in favor of Ztec

[Eric Cruz]

Message in support of proposal sent and receipt confirmed yesterday. I think the proposal is well-reasoned and will only improve the long-term viability of the class.
Eric

[rkeen]

One more in sent in and confirmed to the CRB. I think the proposal is well thought out and provides a long term option for the class. I will repower with a zetec when the current pinto expires. All of you that spent the time and effort to submitt this proposal get my thanks, and I think you did a great job
Randy

[Thomas Copeland]

Have receieved confirmation of my submitted letter. For Zetec. No on sealed engine. Ok on everything else.

[John Levy]

Ric and others, the proposal is extraordinarily well done. Thank you.
I have sent a message of support to the comp board.