Letter 34664 August Fastrack

[Todd Butler]

Suggest you guys collectively move off the rain light issue and look at the above referenced letter. It is going to have significantly more impact to car owners of all types as well as tracks and regions. NOTE As far as I know this is *NOT* being driven by CRB.

#34664 (SCCA Staff) Begin Implementation of Flagtronics Electronic Flagging System“9.3.30. – In-Car Flagging System"1. All cars competing in the SCCA Runoffs (beginning in 2024) must have a functioning Flagtronics FT200 unit that provides visual notification of changing course conditions to the driver while on track at all times. Driver notification can be via the FT200 display or through the car’s dash via FT200 CAN Bus connection. The unique ID number of the Flagtronics unit shall be provided to the SCCA during the event registration process or as defined by the event supplemental regulations.2. Use of Flagtronics may be required at select U.S. Majors Tour events, or available as an option to participants, as per the event supplemental regulations.3. SCCA may access any data recorded by the unit.

[Steve Demeter]

Good Idea

[EYERACE]

Do we eventually see some guy (Chief Steward) with his finger on the button of an overall control 'gun' that once pressed automatically slows all cars like I've seen at local electric go kart tracks? It would seem that's next illogical step. ....just thinking out loud.....

[Mike B]

Suggest you guys collectively move off the rain light issue and look at the above referenced letter. It is going to have significantly more impact to car owners of all types as well as tracks and regions. NOTE As far as I know this is *NOT* being driven by CRB.

Sort of old news but what is your issue with this? It's been discussed at great length here and seems to have more upside than downside. Yes, it's another expense that nobody planned for but it's an expense for something that will be used at almost every event, unlike an unnecessarily expensive rain light that could be used once every two or three seasons (or less).

[Todd Butler]

Sort of old news but what is your issue with this? It's been discussed at great length here and seems to have more upside than downside. Yes, it's another expense that nobody planned for but it's an expense for something that will be used at almost every event, unlike an unnecessarily expensive rain light that could be used once every two or three seasons (or less).

Oh lots of things......it has the potential to give you an in-car yellow well before the flag station and a potential green before you pass the incident heading to the next non-yellow flag station. What takes precedence, SCCA flag rules or in-car alerts? If in-car is only informational but may be at odds with actual track flags it seems pretty dumb to be deliberately giving inconsistent information to the driver.

What happens when stewards review the GPS and Flagtronics flag data and find that multiple drivers passed under Flagtronics yellow, but well before physical flag station yellow? Corner workers, good as they are, can't catch everything when things are busy, so accept the Flagtronics PUY data even if not reported by the corner and penalize the drivers?

Besides the implications for how this is actually used and the implications for obeying flag rules and indicating track conditions there's a whole host of other concerns particularly since SCCA National has been less than transparent about this:

Who sets this up and calibrates it at each track, who bears the expense of track-side acquisition, set up, operation and maintenance? It may be just Runoffs and selected Majors now with Topeka Traveling Tech supporting, but sooner or later they will push it down to Regions.

What kind of long term agreements do we have with these guys? Will this turn into another deal where you can no longer buy but must lease the equipment (like transponders/Mylaps)?

[Steve Demeter]

This should be one that every licensed driver gets to vote on. There are just too many things to go wrong. And the probability that it will turn out6 like the transponder debacle. OK at first then AMB got greedy and if you ever need a new one, you pay through the nose

[Stumpthumper]

I like the idea of modernizing flags, which can be dull and hard to see at certain spots on track, but I would rather see LED boards on the flag stands (and in more places) than something in my tiny, cramped cockpit (FV). I also think Flagtronics promotes more awareness inside the car at the expense of awareness outside of the car.

[Hardingfv32]

1) All tracks are going to want this system. Their main interest will be the reduction of flag station workers. This has big implications for track test days. Light signal boards will be their main interest which will be simple to implement.

2) Implementation of this system is not rocket science, it is software design. The manufacture is attentive to the system's needs. This system is being rolled out with many different sanction bodies which will provide lots of opportunity to improve if required. It will not take long for the proper protocols between workers and the system to be developed.

3) The latest GPS data systems are very accurate. If the the system calls out a PUY, then that should be considered a fact that can be proven with GPS data. Again software design... It will not be very hard to generate a PUY report for every session.

4) I would say there is no setup. This is a GPS based system that requires no physical track interface. A track might be concerned with antenna placement but not much else. The signal light boards are probably all radio controlled. A modern GPS based system just changes everything.

5) The vast majority, maybe 95%, of users of this system are closed wheel or motorcycle who do not have installation packaging issues. The other 5% are going to have to make compromises.

Brian

[Steve Demeter]

Brian,

I agree to an extent, but the folks on the corners do more than flag. They also assist drivers in distress (off course, stuck, etc) No LED system in a car is going to be able to tell a driver that it is clear behind you to reenter the track. Floggers by their body language can also transmit the severity of the condition. If the guy waving the yellow is jumping up and down you had better slow down cause there is probably a real mess ahead. I think this Flagtronics could lead to elimination if manning at some corner stations and definitely degrade safety. Just MHO.

[Peter Olivola]

Brian,

I agree to an extent, but the folks on the corners do more than flag. They also assist drivers in distress (off course, stuck, etc) No LED system in a car is going to be able to tell a driver that it is clear behind you to reenter the track. Floggers by their body language can also transmit the severity of the condition. If the guy waving the yellow is jumping up and down you had better slow down cause there is probably a real mess ahead. I think this Flagtronics could lead to elimination if manning at some corner stations and definitely degrade safety. Just MHO.

It would be a mistake to cast this in the terms used above. We're running out of alternatives. Volunteer corner workers aren't able to refill their ranks. We're already doing things to stretch available bodies to achieve coverage. There may be an alternative to in car flagging lights, but at the end of the day, it would be more expensive than the in car system: Paying even more staff.

[Steve Demeter]

Peter, why do you say that. What is not accurate about my statements. Or are you discounting the value of our floggers. Do you really think that a alight in the cockpit can substitute for their training and presence on the corner?? I agree that there is a thinning of the ranks, but IMHO the proper solution is to address that issue and not compromise safety with a light on the dash.

[Peter Olivola]

Peter, why do you say that. What is not accurate about my statements. Or are you discounting the value of our floggers. Do you really think that a alight in the cockpit can substitute for their training and presence on the corner?? I agree that there is a thinning of the ranks, but IMHO the proper solution is to address that issue and not compromise safety with a light on the dash.

Other organizations are paying corner workers. Some of our events already have a portion of corner working staff who are paid. Paying workers would be a way to address the shortage. That would drive a significant entry fee increase.

I really don't care how the problem is solved, but from an operations POV, the situation on track is not improving and it needs to or we'll wind up with more Code 35/purple flag tracks.

[Farrout48]

Other organizations are paying corner workers. Some of our events already have a portion of corner working staff who are paid. Paying workers would be a way to address the shortage. That would drive a significant entry fee increase.

Peter - As you are aware, SEDIV is already providing workers some relief for their expenses. At Barber, we provide $50/day to the SCCA volunteer workers. Even then we do not always have enough SCCA corner workers to meet the Barber requirement for 34 workers necessary to man the 17 stations. A local commercial outfit charges us $140/day per worker of which the actual worker might get $110-120/day. Our SCCA workers do say that it is not the money that brings them to the track, it is what they love to do.

[Peter Olivola]

Peter - As you are aware, SEDIV is already providing workers some relief for their expenses. At Barber, we provide $50/day to the SCCA volunteer workers. Even then we do not always have enough SCCA corner workers to meet the Barber requirement for 34 workers necessary to man the 17 stations. A local commercial outfit charges us $140/day per worker of which the actual worker might get $110-120/day. Our SCCA workers do say that it is not the money that brings them to the track, it is what they love to do.

Craig,

The difference between $50/day and $140/day is well beyond the ability of regions to absorb without a significant increase in entry fees. I don't advocate either solution and I'm open to any other suggestions, but right now those are the two options, with Flagtronics having already been selected. I don't see that reducing the need for corner workers as more tracks don't have full video systems than do and local yellows will still need a local corner worker to trigger the onboard system. They, in turn, will need a blue flagger for their own safety. Rather than an either/or situation this may become a both.

[Lotus7]

Do we eventually see some guy (Chief Steward) with his finger on the button of an overall control 'gun' that once pressed automatically slows all cars like I've seen at local electric go kart tracks? It would seem that's next illogical step. ....just thinking out loud.....

This has already been proposed by F1 to "help" prevent a leader from running away from the pack, using a reverse-DRS to slow the leader down at the discretion of the race director. Look up last winters' off-season news reports.....

[pacratt]

Curious.
Since each unit is uniquely identified and is tracked by GPS, will it handle timing/scoring and eliminate the need for transponders?

Glenn

[AlanVDW]

Peter - As you are aware, SEDIV is already providing workers some relief for their expenses. At Barber, we provide $50/day to the SCCA volunteer workers. Even then we do not always have enough SCCA corner workers to meet the Barber requirement for 34 workers necessary to man the 17 stations. A local commercial outfit charges us $140/day per worker of which the actual worker might get $110-120/day. Our SCCA workers do say that it is not the money that brings them to the track, it is what they love to do.

The SCCA workers do a pretty good job of the flagging duties, compensated or not. I love flagging. It's the paid track supplied flaggers that can be an issue. To most of them, it's just a paycheck. I have heard stories that would make u think twice before going to a track-sponsored or non-SCCA event. The Flagtronic system is a great idea but will not replace the eyewitness flagger, or the flagger quickly running to you while pulling a pin out of the fire extinguisher (if he/she is even allowed to).

[Steve Demeter]

Amen Alan

If I understand correctly, a corner station has to take some action to activate the Flagtronics system.

So alert and concerned corner workers are still required

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Amen Alan

If I understand correctly, a corner station has to take some action to activate the Flagtronics system.

So alert and concerned corner workers are still required

I believe it can be done by race control from the tower as well.

[Peter Olivola]

I believe it can be done by race control from the tower as well.

That's only effective at a track with full video coverage.

[racerjon1]

Curious.
Since each unit is uniquely identified and is tracked by GPS, will it handle timing/scoring and eliminate the need for transponders?

Glenn

One of the "low-buck" endurance racing programs is doing just that this year and there is awareness of those capabilities in the system - at least for longer races. Time and technology being what they are though, I'm interested in what else this system might have the capability to do outside of flagging as development is done. (Data, timing, etc.)

[BeerBudgetRacing]

One of the "low-buck" endurance racing programs is doing just that this year and there is awareness of those capabilities in the system - at least for longer races. Time and technology being what they are though, I'm interested in what else this system might have the capability to do outside of flagging as development is done. (Data, timing, etc.)

I thought GPS wouldn't be accurate enough for the 'photo finish'.

[Steve Demeter]

I believe it can be done by race control from the tower as well.

Beer I agree on race control activating Flagtronics, but they have to be notified by a corner station as I understand it at the present state

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Beer I agree on race control activating Flagtronics, but they have to be notified by a corner station as I understand it at the present state

Notified - You're talking 'information gathering'.
So who "flips the switch" for FCY ? Red ?
I believe race control 'has the button' but I would assume they communicate with the corners.

But I'd think for test days and the like when not every flag station is occupied they could control the boards at the unmanned stations.

[Steve Davis]

Notified - You're talking 'information gathering'.
So who "flips the switch" for FCY ? Red ?
I believe race control 'has the button' but I would assume they communicate with the corners.

But I'd think for test days and the like when not every flag station is occupied they could control the boards at the unmanned stations.

The FCY 'switch' is one of, if not THE driving force(s) from SCCA. The TOWER .. under control of the sitting chair, can COMMAND FCY at all corners at will. The corner stations only control their specific area - leading to.. and leaving from their turn. The longer term goal is for the tower to COMMAND the FCY speed as well. That is to 'very fastly' be able to "bring the entire field" UNDER CONTROL and be able to release EV's as needed right away.... instead of having to wait until EVERY CAR ON THE TRACK catches up to a Pace Car. FT will also automatically flag 'violators' of the declared speed during the FCY. It has other potential uses as well.. but they will.. or MIGHT.. come much later. Another thing the FT will do is to report the 'speed at impact' - automatically if it's over ... I think 3 G.. but IIRC, it registers '>X' and '>Y'. Whatever they set those 2 numbers at. That is intended to give the Tower additional info for potential injury to the driver .. as well as the EXACT (more or less) position of the car when it stops.

The tower FT operator has a live (google earth type) track map showing the location of every car - including safety vehicles and every Flag station on the track. It's pretty cool seeing it in action. VERY MUCH like the tracking provided by the broadcasts for F1 races.

I believe it's expected to be 'in play' at most majors this season. SCCA will decide at which point it becomes MANDATORY .. where it will be most effective in immediate 'FCY control'.

Steve, FV80

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I believe it's expected to be 'in play' at most majors this season. SCCA will decide at which point it becomes MANDATORY .. where it will be most effective in immediate 'FCY control'.

I'm waiting for the 'slim' version discussed in the other thread:
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...g-light-system

Will this mean that the majors will all have the flag display boards at stations?
To me, requiring an 'incomplete' system (driver only) isn't a good test as those without the in-car display will benefit from the display boards.

[Steve Demeter]

I was thinking ( I know that is hard for many of you to believe) But.... How many of us spend much time looking down n the cockpit compared to looking out ahead at the track, traffic and floggers.

It seems to me that unless the Flagtronics light is really huge and bright not many would notice it immediately as opposed to a corner worker jumping up and down waving a yellow flag

Just MHO

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I was thinking ( I know that is hard for many of you to believe) But.... How many of us spend much time looking down n the cockpit compared to looking out ahead at the track, traffic and floggers.

It seems to me that unless the Flagtronics light is really huge and bright not many would notice it immediately as opposed to a corner worker jumping up and down waving a yellow flag

Just MHO

My understanding is the panels ARE noticeable as they are bright like ILS lights at the airport.
Maybe even more so than a corner worker.

The problem is the light panel can't change how it warns - like a corner worker can point to a difficult to see problem.

See the other thread about car installations and the new product to be released.

[Matt Clark]

My understanding is the panels ARE noticeable as they are bright like ILS lights at the airport.
Maybe even more so than a corner worker.

The problem is the light panel can't change how it warns - like a corner worker can point to a difficult to see problem.

See the other thread about car installations and the new product to be released.

Yes, the panels are actually more noticeable than the flags, in my limited experience at Watkins Glen... which generally has good visibility to the stations. On a track with less than ideal flagging locations, I bet these are TONS better.

[JoshuaJustice]

If Flagtronics can replace the existing MyLaps transponder subscription then good riddance to MyLaps and I'll be happy to buy the Flagtronics device.

Considering the MyLaps transponder subscription thing has already happened, the lesson should have been learned, and Flagtronics should not be made mandatory without a legally binding guarantee that there will be no annual subscription garbage.

[Steve Demeter]

If that is true I change everything I have said.11111

[racerjon1]

I thought GPS wouldn't be accurate enough for the 'photo finish'.

A couple things on that - primarily, that's why I said "longer" races. Less of a chance of photo finish.

Second thing, SCCA doesn't rely on the transponder in a close finish either - it's why we determined the Spec Miata tie last year from the finish line camera.

[Steve Davis]

The other factor is that the LIGHT PANELS, require a significant expenditure from the race tracks.. or the supporting SCCA Region. That means a substantial INCREASE in entry fees.. or the tracks/regions/drivers just say NO.

The FT200 system (without panels) requires a bit less investment . At the VIR Runoffs last year, SOMEONE added the light panel at the top of the climbing esses to AUGMENT the 'visuality' of incidents happening on the far side of that turn. The light panel was visible about half way up the esses, so it was a very worthwhile addition. I don't know who paid to have that put there. Could have been SCCA, FT, or someone else. FT DOES offer panels as a additional option for tracks according to their website - but still no idea who funded THAT panel.

Personally, I VASTLY prefer .. and consider it MUCH more 'transparently informative' than just the in-cockpit FT indicator for formula cars... but $$$ talks.

Steve, FV80

[Hardingfv32]

The other factor is that the LIGHT PANELS, require a significant expenditure from the race tracks.. or the supporting SCCA Region. That means a substantial INCREASE in entry fees..Steve, FV80

Roughly speaking the FT 2' square panel is $500.

I do not know what other racing, track day, etc. do for flaggers, but they cannot be having an easier time than SCCA. Seems like a sound investment for the track owners. Renters either pay for flaggers or light panels.

Brian

[Peter Olivola]

Roughly speaking the FT 2' square panel is $500.

I do not know what other racing, track day, etc. do for flaggers, but they cannot be having an easier time than SCCA. Seems like a sound investment for the track owners. Renters either pay for flaggers or light panels.

Brian

Light panels in an of themselves don't mitigate the need for corner workers (to operate them.) On top of the light panel cost, a track seeking to reduce staff costs will need a full coverage video system which is considerably more expensive than the light panels.

[Steve Demeter]

Peter for once we agree!!!!

Our workers are indispensable!!!

[Hardingfv32]

Our workers are indispensable!!!

You still have to deal with fewer workers each year. That is a trend that is not going to change.

Brian

[Hardingfv32]

Light panels in an of themselves don't mitigate the need for corner workers (to operate them.) On top of the light panel cost, a track seeking to reduce staff costs will need a full coverage video system which is considerably more expensive than the light panels.

A video system would take a lot of monitoring.

The Flagtronic system claims to monitor all the actions of each car on track. I am going to assume that there are alarm settings in the software that go off when a car on track does something physically out of the norm. This would seem a viable alternative to a video system.

Brian

[Peter Olivola]

A video system would take a lot of monitoring.

The Flagtronic system claims to monitor all the actions of each car on track. I am going to assume that there are alarm settings in the software that go off when a car on track does something physically out of the norm. This would seem a viable alternative to a video system.

Brian

That would be like relying on transponders to score a race. There is no substitute for a pair of Mk 2 eyeballs to enhance the decision process.

[Steve Demeter]

Maybe I do not get it but can someone explain how Flagtronics activates only the units in the area of the yellow flag incident. Can not get it straight. Thanks