Norm J Hart DSR/CSR chassis information

[APBos]

Hello everyone,
A few weeks ago I purchased a chassis ( abandoned in the process of being built), body, plans and boxes of parts. The plan dates from 1979 to 1988 and most have his name (N.J. Hart) on inscribed in the plans. That is what I know definitely.


The body appears to be very LeGrand MK18 “like”, but maybe some changes (open front for a radiator, blisters and some other ducts that are probably additions after the body was moulded).. The chassis plans seem more like a mk25, but with some improvements (better bracing). The chassis is set up for an inline engine and a “hewland” gear box.


It appears Norman raced SCCA for long time as he was a regional member of the SFRSCCA for over 60 years and a member of the competition committee of DSR racing in the early 80’s. He raced AH sprites in H mod in the 60’s and Honda s800’s.

The plans for the car appear to use a Hewland mk4/5 rearward Lotus 61 side cover gear box or a VW gearbox and a bracket to mount the gear box to make it mount in the back of the cross member mount, with the drive line forward of the cross member.

What I am trying to determine was what the motor he was going to use? Norm in the early 80’s was advocating to limit the growing engine displacements in DSR and up to 1988 ( the date on the last plan) the category was limited to 1100 cc,(?) so a Ford crossflow would be out. He seems to have been a big s800 fan and the body is Honda red so I wonder if he planned to use an S800 engine? May be a BMC 1100?

if you have any leads or if you knew Norm or the chassis I would really appreciate a reply. I have many options I can do with the car, but only one would be historically accurate and I have yet to find out what it is. Thank you for reading this and I am glad to be here!

Regards
Paul

[scott fairchild]

Many DSRs in the late '60s through the 70s used Fiat based engines. PBS ones seemed to be some of the hottest.

looks like a fun project,
Scott

[DanW]

In addition to what Scott advised, some used two stroke engines with 4 cylinders. Jeff Miller used a Kohler 6 cylinder engine.

http://www.kohlerengines.com/engines/racing.htm

[Garey Guzman]

I'm a huge fan of doing Vintage in the most correct "period" manner and hopefully you find a friend/partner/helper of Mr Hart's that knew the direction that he was working toward.

OTOH, if you don't find out the original plan, it would probably be just as correct to use a period powertrain. As Dan just mentioned, Kohler engines were used. I found that a Kohler-powered Mk 18 won the Runoffs in 1980 and a Mk18 with a Suzuki engine won in 1982. There were other engines, based on the internet searches. Here's something that you've probably run across:
http://dsr.racer.net/chassis/legrand/page1.htm

[APBos]

I'm a huge fan of doing Vintage in the most correct "period" manner and hopefully you find a friend/partner/helper of Mr Hart's that knew the direction that he was working toward.

OTOH, if you don't find out the original plan, it would probably be just as correct to use a period powertrain. As Dan just mentioned, Kohler engines were used. I found that a Kohler-powered Mk 18 won the Runoffs in 1980 and a Mk18 with a Suzuki engine won in 1982. There were other engines, based on the internet searches. Here's something that you've probably run across:
http://dsr.racer.net/chassis/legrand/page1.htm

Gary
It is my intention to the car in a period correct way. From what I have read LeGrand had the option of putting an inline engine or a motorcycle engine ( see the attached). The rear chassis were different and changing the car the a motorcycle chain drive might require more engineering that I might be able to afford. My daughter could engineer the changes as she has her Masters in Engineering so we’ll see. Hopefully someone knows about te car,
If I look at the price list it looks like I got a good deal even with 1973 dollars!
Regards
Paul

[Offcamber1]

Paul,

If you go into SCCA archives and look at runoffs results from the 1980s you'll see quite a few different motors represented. My Lola 340 was converted in 1980 and was at the runoffs 5 or 6 times using a Nissan A-12 motor out of a Datsun 210. At the beginning of that decade that was a popular conversion which fell out of favor as the 80s progressed with the 2 stroke motors dominating. There were some interesting cars back then and some great creativity going on as teams looked for the optimal combination.
Cool project!

Kip

[APBos]

Paul,

If you go into SCCA archives and look at runoffs results from the 1980s you'll see quite a few different motors represented. My Lola 340 was converted in 1980 and was at the runoffs 5 or 6 times using a Nissan A-12 motor out of a Datsun 210. At the beginning of that decade that was a popular conversion which fell out of favor as the 80s progressed with the 2 stroke motors dominating. There were some interesting cars back then and some great creativity going on as teams looked for the optimal combination.
Cool project!

Kip

Kip
I was wondering what Datsun motor was used as I saw the results section the other day. I have a 210 transmission in my garage for my AH sprite. I think I even saw an adapter plate for Nissan motor to the Hewland on the web. Something to ponder as many of the period motors are getting hard to find. I figure an S800 motor would cost an arm and a leg and it really belongs in that rare car! I do not think it would qualify, but you could supercharge the Nissan or the BMC. Looking through some of my pictures of the spares I quickly took when I got the car I found what I think is the shifter linkage to a Hewland in one of the bins!

Thank you for you input!
Regards
Paul

[Marty Nygard]

I don't remember his name (Hoover maybe) but a few years back there was a guy from California who had a three cylinder turbocharged Mazda engine (probably from a 600cc Kei car) in his Cheetah DSR.
In addition to the Kohler two strokes, AMW also made a two stroke flat four cylinder and even a three cylinder turbocharged one. Both brands were built around sled parts. Mike Rupert made most of the last AMW engines using Arctic Cat pieces. He is still racing and is located somewhere in Wisconsin.
Also a favorite with the homebuilt community was the Suzuki water buffalo triple as modified by Ocelot.
Have fun with your project.

[scorp997]

I may still have an adapter for a FIAT 128 SOHC engine to VW adapter in my garage. I bought it to use in a sports racer project I had several years back. Let me know if interested and I will try and dig it out

[APBos]

I may still have an adapter for a FIAT 128 SOHC engine to VW adapter in my garage. I bought it to use in a sports racer project I had several years back. Let me know if interested and I will try and dig it out

John is the Fiat motor available or an equivalent.? Quick search and I couldn’t find anything in the US. Not really familiar with 128 ( was it used in the Yugo?)

Regards
Paul

[scorp997]

engines are readily available out of an 128 (1100cc, 1300cc), X1/9 (1300cc, 1500cc), Yugo and Strada. There are several FIAT websites that should help, xweb (https://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php) is probably the best

not sure which displacement you would run, I was planning on a 1300

John is the Fiat motor available or an equivalent.? Quick search and I couldn’t find anything in the US. Not really familiar with 128 ( was it used in the Yugo?)

Regards
Paul

[APBos]

A little more trivia about Norm Hart. In 1959 at Santa Barbra he wins his class in an Elva in a Novice Race. The overall winner in the novice class driving a Porsche 356…….. Steve McQueen!

[john slater]

I crewed for Norm and his Elva-Honda S800 DSR in 1975, and gave input on car design while he designed this car. He meant to put his S800 (1000cc Yoshimura) engine in this car. I never saw a body and the car is more complete than I remember.

I image he would have used the same gearbox as on his Elva-Honda DSR. The DSR had a suspension failure and crash soon after he sold it, but I presume this car still exists

The car would never have been competitive with the motorcycle engined DSRs that were popping up.

The project stalled, lack of money or motivation. Norm did later restore a S800 roadster and vintage race it.

johngslater. uses gmail

[APBos]

I crewed for Norm and his Elva-Honda S800 DSR in 1975, and gave input on car design while he designed this car. He meant to put his S800 (1000cc Yoshimura) engine in this car. I never saw a body and the car is more complete than I remember.

I image he would have used the same gearbox as on his Elva-Honda DSR. The DSR had a suspension failure and crash soon after he sold it, but I presume this car still exists

The car would never have been competitive with the motorcycle engined DSRs that were popping up.

The project stalled, lack of money or motivation. Norm did later restore a S800 roadster and vintage race it.

johngslater. uses gmail

Just got back from a conference and was pleasantly surprised by this post, Thank you. I’ll reach outtoyou after the jet lag wears off.

Paul