Fuel Cell

[Rick Iverson]

Gents;

Considering my fuel cell is pushing thirty years of age, I am considering replacing it. But first…..

As there is no maintenance port on my RF95 cell, can it still be inspected through the fill tube?

[EYERACE]

I'm a little slow here.........(but those of you who race against me already know that)
and I'll admit.......
I'm a little stupid here too.....(those of you who bother at all to read what I post already know that)
however..........
an inspection port? Huh?
it would seem to me.....cuz eye knows nothing (stealing the line from Sgt. Schultz)
If the bladder isn't leaking, the cell is good enough
also........
some of the foam may have turned to sludge/goo
however.....
if your fuel filter is clean enough, then your foam is good enough too it would seem.
........and here's where I may show that I'm not totally stupid........
If your fuel cell has made it 30 years..........replace it and the foam too. Who here wouldn't?
The alternative is to go to the track one day, climb into the car and discover you're sitting in a puddle of fuel.
Been there, done that.
Believe me, your backside (and more below the belt) after it soaks through your suit will feel soon enough like it's on fire even if you're not actually on fire.
30 years?
Maybe you should call the Guiness Book of Records for the oldest cell but I doubt they have that category.
As to actual inspection............you could try using the same camera that one feeds inside an engine cylinder when the plug is out...but why bother?

[DaveW]

Is the bare fuel cell out of the car and its container? If the cell was never used with gas containing ethanol, it may be OK.

You can put a VERY low pressure into the cell (shop vac blower, etc) and use soapy water on the outside to look for bubbles.

If it passes the leak test, I would give it a VERY thorough inspection on the outside, looking for ANY signs of cracking, excessive wear or exposed fabric, and then remove whatever fitting (the fill port?) you need to look and feel inside. It's likely that the cell was built and then the foam stuffed in through the largest opening. If you can't see inside, you may need to pull out some of the foam to assess its condition.

Once you do as much as you can in that regard, you will usually know what needs to be done. The usual 1st thing to go is the foam, but gas with any alcohol will destroy most older urethane cells not formulated to withstand alcohol in short order.

Be thorough with your inspection and don't assume anything is good w/o verification.

[Redawgleader]

You've posed the age-old question of preventative maintenance: When does it make sense and when is it a waste of time and money? All answers are subjective and here is mine:
If the following is true...
Replacing the fuel cell will make zero difference to the performance of you car
You have limited time, $, and resources to work on your car
There may be other better opportunities to spend your resources that WILL make a difference to the performance of your car
A leaky fuel cell is most likely to start with a seep, well before it becomes a profound leak
You are willing to forego part of a weekend in the future (the day you discover the seep and thus cannot race that day)
You believe in 'if it ain't broke, then don't fix it' for whatever reason

Then you can leave it alone. Otherwise, if these things aren't true then you need to replace.

An alternative hedge is to buy the new cell and put it on the shelf until you need it. It's not a trivial amount of work to R and R the cell, but you could do it between race days on a weekend if you hustled.

Gents;

Considering my fuel cell is pushing thirty years of age, I am considering replacing it. But first…..

As there is no maintenance port on my RF95 cell, can it still be inspected through the fill tube?

[S Lathrop]

Take a look at Fuel Safe. They have a nice line of products and can make custom cells as well.

In recent years I have been using Eagle Fuel Cells and Fuel Safe for my cars. Eagle is primarily a aircraft fuel cell producer. But they do do custom cells for other applications. The Eagle fuel cells will be built to FAA standards. The FIA standard is the same.

[DaveW]

Take a look at Fuel Safe. They have a nice line of products and can make custom cells as well.

In recent years I have been using Eagle Fuel Cells and Fuel Safe for my cars. Eagle is primarily a aircraft fuel cell producer. But they do do custom cells for other applications. The Eagle fuel cells will be built to FAA standards. The FIA standard is the same.

IIRC, Eagle may no longer be doing custom cells.

[Rick Iverson]

Sir;

The tone and language of your reply is both condescending and rude. I simply ask you no longer reply to any of my further posts on Apex.

V/r

Iverson

I'm a little slow here.........(but those of you who race against me already know that)
and I'll admit.......
I'm a little stupid here too.....(those of you who bother at all to read what I post already know that)
however..........
an inspection port? Huh?
it would seem to me.....cuz eye knows nothing (stealing the line from Sgt. Schultz)
If the bladder isn't leaking, the cell is good enough
also........
some of the foam may have turned to sludge/goo
however.....
if your fuel filter is clean enough, then your foam is good enough too it would seem.
........and here's where I may show that I'm not totally stupid........
If your fuel cell has made it 30 years..........replace it and the foam too. Who here wouldn't?
The alternative is to go to the track one day, climb into the car and discover you're sitting in a puddle of fuel.
Been there, done that.
Believe me, your backside (and more below the belt) after it soaks through your suit will feel soon enough like it's on fire even if you're not actually on fire.
30 years?
Maybe you should call the Guiness Book of Records for the oldest cell but I doubt they have that category.
As to actual inspection............you could try using the same camera that one feeds inside an engine cylinder when the plug is out...but why bother?

[EYERACE]

A few ideas............

the first several comments were self-critical - admitting my own ignorance - so I fail to see how you might object

then we get to the part that goes....who here wouldn't.....let's think of it this way.....would anyone buy/sell or use a 30 year old fuel cell even if it tested well? I suppose the comment at post#2 could be viewed as condescending....it was made more as rhetorical than anything else at the time.

Been there, done that...........yup..........halfway through a race at Sebring, suddenly I'm sitting in a pool of fuel, everyone on pit road got to see me pull in in a car that seemed to have nothing wrong with it, next thing they see is me jump out of the car in a big hurry, distance myself from it for fear of a fire, at the same time dance rather awkwardly while trying to hurriedly strip off my suit with no choice but to leave the getting-hotter-by-the-moment whitey tighties on. The next word at that point used was 'your' which is simply speech and not meant personally.

The Guiness comment is understandable for an objection but meant as a hyperbole and a joke.

I get the impression some thread websites have a feature wherein one may put others on ignore. I have no idea if ApexSpeed has this feature because I've never wished to ignore anyone here. I offer you a sincere and public apology, because it's obvious I did offend you which was not my intent. No Moderator has commented or motivated me.

[Charles Warner]

Take a look at Fuel Safe. They have a nice line of products and can make custom cells as well.

In recent years I have been using Eagle Fuel Cells and Fuel Safe for my cars. Eagle is primarily a aircraft fuel cell producer. But they do do custom cells for other applications. The Eagle fuel cells will be built to FAA standards. The FIA standard is the same.

Steve and Dave,

AFAIK Eagle will no longer make custom cells. I had them make 5 1982 RT4 cells about 10 years ago so I thought they'd be the ones to make another 2. Surprisingly, they refused. When I asked for the pattern (I had paid for) I was told they threw it away. Fuel Safe will do the job but their prices are over the moon. I'm using Harmon Cells in CA now. Slow but good work. Have had two cells made for the Shadows with great results.

[DaveW]

Rick & Eye,

I've seen a lot of posts from Eye over the years, and they are more often than not in jest, poking fun at himself . He does not ever take himself seriously. And I've never thought he was denigrating anyone.

[billtebbutt]

Somewhere on Apex I posed this same question a year or so ago. My RF 90 was on its original cell (repaired in 1995! according the revised stamp on it), and seemed to have been in pretty regular use for a long time. I never put pump gas in a race car, and the lack of ethanol has probably extended its life.

So, a year ago I start thinking along these same lines, and get pretty much the same answers! And, when the wait from Fuelsafe can be 4 months from order date, I decided to get on it. I finished off the season last year, ordered a new one, and put it in over the winter.

And sure enough, the old cell was delaminating along a long diagonal seem, and weeping fuel when I removed it. So, my advice is that it isn't worth the danger/loss of a racing weekend. Actually, forget about the lost race weekend - its isn't worth the peril. Racing is dangerous enough as it is..... I feel I barely got away with it....

bt

[problemchild]

I have saved the hardware from previous rotten cells so that I could install access plates to good cells.

I certainly agree with the "if it ain't broke ......." commentary. I have found that poking at it makes it more vulnerable to a leak starting. I would leave it be.

[allof6]

Pyrotech also does custom cells to FIA standards and Mark is easy to work with. I had then do 5 for us not so long ago.

[Bob Wright]

https://www.schultzproducts.com/

I had a long discussion with the owner of this company in the Paddock at one of our races. They say they can make anything with decent turn around time. Might be worth a call?

[Rick Iverson]

Gentlemen;

At approaching seventy-five, I find my once amicable countenance a bit crusty. But I do try hard, really.

Days ago, my mother passed, and I am dealing with the trip to MN to finish business. As such, I am absolutely OBE.

If I appeared to be abrupt, you have my most sincere apologies. After all, we are family.

Enjoy our Independence Day. This nation is worth saving, again.

[DaveW]

Google:
OBE, Overtaken (or overcome) By Events

[Rick Iverson]

Sir;

Overcome by events in my parlance. But precisely same same. Much obliged, friend.

OBE, Overtaken By Events

[wake74]

I priced all the major players last summer. The only one that didn’t give me the “I don’t really want to mess with the little guy price” was Mark at Pyrotech. They were significantly less expensive. Super easy to communicate with, it shipped almost to the day to what he quoted me for fabrication time. This was for an RF81. I shipped the old cell and can to him. He re-used what he could, like the filler, with new hardware. Very easy experience from start to finish. (And my condolences on your mom’s passing).

[DaveW]

OBE, Overtaken By Events

Sir;

Overcome by events in my parlance. But precisely same same. Much obliged, friend.

Google said "overtaken" but "overcome" is more appropriate here. Thanks.

Sorry to hear about your mother's passing.