How do drivers choose….

[Lotus7]

…. which events to enter?

A few weeks ago we had maybe 16? FF’s at Atlanta;
Today at VIR: FA+FC+FF = 12

(never mind 32 FF at FRP, but that’s not this discussion)

[veeten]

Entry Fee value plus amount of likely green flag laps. Level of Competition and large group same class cars. A big factor
is Mix of Classes!!

[Garey Guzman]

1. Distance (farther = more expensive)
2. Entry fee cost (SCCA = good value, a certain couple of Vintage groups are really proud of themselves while one is especially reducing Vintage groups track time)
3. Any friends committed/might commit (might become number 1 if a couple of friends are going)

[Matt Clark]

don't overlook weather forecast, and in the case of VIR this weekend, being a holiday.

[Rick Silver]

I would have been there in my 98/01 Van Diemen had my clutch hydraulic release bearing and clutch cover not melted down at Summit Point the weekend before - could not get the parts in time. I think Chas had an engine problem at Summit Point as well. Not sure what happened to John LaRue or a few of the others. The grouping was great and was looking forward to that.

[DanW]

1. Distance (farther = more expensive)
2. Entry fee cost (SCCA = good value, a certain couple of Vintage groups are really proud of themselves while one is especially reducing Vintage groups track time)
3. Any friends committed/might commit (might become number 1 if a couple of friends are going)

Some of our members have balked at the entry fees for the Super Tour/Western Shootout at Thunderhill, May 5-7. So, the region exec emailed the membership with this note:

"Hi All,
We have heard from you. In response to the feedback regarding prices for the May 5-7 Super Tour/Western Shootout, we have reduced the entry fee for the weekend!
We have dropped the fee from $850 to $695. ($155 reduction) We are also waiving the equipment fee ($75). ($230 reduction overall!) This is for all 3 days. Changing Sunday to a seperate sanction would be problematic and we would have to have a seperate registation for the 1 day, so Sunday will be a bonus day in addition to the HST. WInners (racers) on Sunday will still get Regional Points and we will still crown a single Western Shootout Champ.
Tell your friends, tell your neighbors.... Thanks for all the feedback! Let's make this a great event!
TIm Sullivan"

[patman]

I was planning to go to VIR, but decided to skip it.
1) summit point majors (also on ne points tour) was last weekend. Back to back race weekends are tough, especially when one is 7 hous away.
2) Super tour plus test day means leaving Wednesday morning. So taking 4 days off work (I work 6+ days a week), plus having to unload Monday.
3) test day was $425 for 3 sessions. Race entry $750. That's a lot of money to me. 3 sessions on test day really kills it for me especially in light of
4) vir tends to be a crash-fest lately. At runoffs last year we had zero sessions that ran the whole time. So you pay/plan for a certain amount of track time, and might only get 20% of that. Not the tracks fault but still a reality.
5) weather forecast (and reality so I hear) sucked
6) minimal cars were signed up in my class

I'm sure everyone is different but those were my reasons. Sad because I love vir. I will be doing a track day or something instead to prepare for the runoffs which hopefully will provide more laps per dollar

Edit: fwiw I don't mind the mixed classes, so that was not a factor for me.
Also: I think we as racers need to be better at communicating within the class who is going where. It's more fun with more cars and at least for me I could edit my schedule significantly if it meant lining up with all the other p2 guys

[Hardingfv32]

We are also waiving the equipment fee ($75).

So what was the $75 equipment fee for?

Brian

[problemchild]

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”

SCCA has been squeezing their 3 "National events" at Road Atlanta, VIR, and Summit into a 4-5 week window for several years. That is insanity!

This year we had a FRP too. You cannot have 4 4-day events in 6 weeks in a 400 mile radius and expect decent participation numbers.

Who can go racing four times in a month?
We don't need Einstein to answer that question.

[Lotus7]

.

[DanW]

So what was the $75 equipment fee for?

Brian

The equipment fee is a $25/race fee to fund club capital equipment reserves, including emergency vehicles, pace car, tech trailers and other equipment that wear out over time and must be replaced. The fee is shown in the supps every season. The region budgets replacement or refurbishment of their vehicles. This is far less expensive than leasing or borrowing to replace equipment.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Some of our members have balked at the entry fees for the Super Tour/Western Shootout at Thunderhill, May 5-7. So, the region exec emailed the membership with this note:

I got that email as well. Not sure what is going on with SFR. A couple of regionals this spring they are eliminated certain classes and post on FB are a little disturbing.

For me the 'Western Shootout' just doesn't pan out.
Love T-Hill but 20hrs of towing, a week off work, a $400 test day and $750 entry fee.

The time is really the problem for us working stiffs.

[Hardingfv32]

Can anyone expand on how Regions get their dates with a particular track. Bidding and/or date history with track? It has always looked to me like it is hard to move away from the dates you have always had/used.

I can understand that there iare benefits for the Regions handling track rentals. I guess that National would not really have any advantage over the Regions.

Brian

[Steve Demeter]

Where it is
What kind of race
Who is putting it on
and how it fits in with other events I plan on running

[Peter Olivola]

Can anyone expand on how Regions get their dates with a particular track. Bidding and/or date history with track? It has always looked to me like it is hard to move away from the dates you have always had/used.

I can understand that there iare benefits for the Regions handling track rentals. I guess that National would not really have any advantage over the Regions.

Brian

Any given track has a designated "owner" region. Normally that aligns with the track being within the region's geographic boundaries. There are exceptions - Road America, for instance, is physically within Milwaukee Region's geographic boundaries, but Chicago Region is recognized by the club as the "owner."

That determines which region my sanction an event at that track. Other regions may be able to sanction events at that track with the "owners" approval.

Dates are entirely up to negotiation between the track and the sanctioning region. For the most part, a region will be given first right of refusal for a date it had the previous year. Many of these dates were established before there was any significant competition for dates. Regions have found that the market has changed dramatically and giving up a date can mean permanent loss of the date. In at least one instance where a region has an ownership interest in the track, dates may be loaned out to other organizations, retaining first right of refusal for the date in subsequent years.

In the case of SCCA Road Racing events at tracks with pro (IndyCar, IMSA, etc.) events, even traditional dates can and do move around based on what the track has to do to accommodate their pro schedule.

Topeka has very little input in track rental contracts. They could never force a pro event into a region's weekend and with the movement of all pro racing to SVRA promotion that remains the case. Regions control whomever they want to partner with or whether they want to partner with anyone at all.

[Mike B]

The equipment fee is a $25/race fee to fund club capital equipment reserves, including emergency vehicles, pace car, tech trailers and other equipment that wear out over time and must be replaced. The fee is shown in the supps every season. The region budgets replacement or refurbishment of their vehicles. This is far less expensive than leasing or borrowing to replace equipment.

So what was the other $155 for?

[DanW]

So what was the other $155 for?

Hoping to make a little profit. It's an ambitious event. The east 3 mile track then racing the combined 3 mile and 2 mile track to make a 5 mile track. The region has to hire additional workers, including e-crews to cover the entire 5 miles. The two tracks combined are technically very different and reward the best drivers.

Participants arrive for a Thursday practice session divided into a morning on the 3 mile course with the afternoon session on the 5 mile course. Friday starts with a qualifying session leading to a Super Tour Race #1 on the 3 mile short course. Saturday begins with a qualifying session on the 3 mile course with Super Tour Sprint Race #2 in the afternoon. Sunday is the main event, opening with morning practice on the 5 mile full track and ending with the Western Shootout Feature Race.

https://www.scca.com/articles/201715...ill-super-tour

https://westernshootout.com/2022/10/...-raceway-park/

[EACIII]

One of the issues is the Internet. Back in the day you mailed in your entry and saw who else was there when you showed up at the track. Now people look on-line to see who else has entered before they do. So with everyone sitting on the side waiting to see who else is coming, no one ends up going.

I know I was all set to go to the last race for the year last year at NJ, but saw I would be the only FF entered so skipped it, even thought I had the car all prepped to go

Ed

[Lotus7]

Love T-Hill but 20hrs of towing, a week off work, a $400 test day and $750 entry fee.

The time is really the problem for us working stiffs.

I completely understand this when taken out of a particular context, but I've been crewing nearly 40 years, and the events have always been 3 or 4 days, and the tracks are all in the same locations, and everyone has always had a job (not trying to be flippant, honest). Equally, others have shown previously that once inflation is accounted for, racing is not markedly "more expensive" than it used to be.so what's changed?
Maybe it's just that drivers are just less obsessed with going racing than they used to be?

[DaveW]

...Maybe it's just that drivers are just less obsessed with going racing than they used to be?

IMO, this is the main issue with low #'s of drivers at events. There are too many easier-to-do activities, i.e., sit on your butt and go down the rabbit hole of social media, playing games, on-line betting, etc.). Less and less people have the yearning to do something that requires major effort.

[problemchild]

IMO, this is the main issue with low #'s of drivers at events. There are too many easier-to-do activities, i.e., sit on your butt and go down the rabbit hole of social media, playing games, on-line betting, etc.). Less and less people have the yearning to do something that requires major effort.

Dave is right. Everybody, get off this forum, and go work on your race cars.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I completely understand this when taken out of a particular context, but I've been crewing nearly 40 years, and the events have always been 3 or 4 days, and the tracks are all in the same locations, and everyone has always had a job (not trying to be flippant, honest). Equally, others have shown previously that once inflation is accounted for, racing is not markedly "more expensive" than it used to be.so what's changed?
Maybe it's just that drivers are just less obsessed with going racing than they used to be?

Yep. But we have to make choices. I can do a couple of weekends for the cost of that one. And looking at the entries there is only 1 FC from the region. 3 from SoCal. So I'm not the only one.

When I'm not racing, I'm not sitting on my arse. Working, home maintenance - there is always something. I have to make time to work on the car and go racing. Just the way it is.

[DaveW]

Dave is right. Everybody, get off this forum, and go work on your race cars.

Just spent 2 hours wire-brushing and spraying all the rusty areas on top of my 34 YO trailer with Rust-Oleum cold-galvanizing paint.

[swiftdrivr]

Right now it's equipment availability; Car isn't ready. After that it is some nebulous combination of :

Weather [boss says no playing in the rain]
Cost [becoming much more of an issue now that I am on a fixed income]
Distance {VIR is now a huge tow for me]
Track; VIR and RA are within reach, and favorites. Sebring is closer, but less enjoyable.
Competition / someone to run with / friends in the paddock

[racerjon1]

IMO, this is the main issue with low #'s of drivers at events. There are too many easier-to-do activities, i.e., sit on your butt and go down the rabbit hole of social media, playing games, on-line betting, etc.). Less and less people have the yearning to do something that requires major effort.

This is more general than the specific question of why the differences in a single class at one event over another, but I did want to respond.

Yes - the world has more opportunities to do things. Sure it could be sitting on your butt going down social media holes, but it's also a world that is in general more open to "getting out and doing." Mountain biking and outdoor activities in general are huge and tap into some of the same "adventure" vibe, and racing is competing with those and all the other available (easier or different) recreational opportunities.

All that being true, there are more people driving on tracks right now than ever before - but wheel-to-wheel racing, and specifically the SCCA, isn't the monopoly (or near-monopoly) it once was.

For instance: There are about the same number of SCCA track day entries as there are SCCA road racing entries. When you Include SCCA time trials, you see that track+time trials programs have about 20% more entries than Road Racing.

Nationwide, all clubs/programs, there are about 50,000 track-day/time trials entries each year.

Then, outside of the SCCA, you have more competition for wheel-to-wheel racing on an amateur/club level.

There are 7-10 more national sanctioning bodies than there were 15 years ago. There are thousands of entries through those organizations. If you look at that - there are almost more wheel-to-wheel entries currently outside of the SCCA than there ever have been inside of the SCCA.

Nationwide, all programs, there are probably 40,000 road racing entries each year. SCCA might have had 22,000 at its peak.

So - while overall activity choices and distraction-culture we live in are certainly part of the struggle for entries, it is not a lack of interest that keeps people from choosing the SCCA - it's that people do not have to chose the SCCA like they once did.

and Dave - I don't mean to attack you with this as much as I want to really shed light on the current state of motorsports. In fact, you've been around long enough that I'd love to have a conversation with you about the trajectory of formula cars and SCCA racing specifically. I have some hypothesis, but you have some "been there done that" experience that can absolutely help me fill some gaps in my historical knowledge.

_{(Disclaimer, I'm an SCCA employee and this isn't an official statement from the SCCA. But.. it is my analysis and a situation I spend about 50 hours a week working on right now.)}

[halcyon]

When I put together my pre-season wish list of events, it was 30+, much more than I have $$$ or vacation to do. I do not see this as an issue of being too many races. I find it great to have that many options. I make my selection based on which tracks I want to drive. Which events, I can take multiple cars to and how they will be classed is my second criteria, e.g., racing a historic FF with LMP cars is a turn off. Which events friends will be at is my third decision factor. The car count, the sanctioning organization, and entry fees have very little to do with my decision. Other factors that impact my decision are the organizers (paid or volunteer), e.g., continuing to let dangerous drivers on track because they write a check, Tech who nitpicks and tries to enforce beyond the written rules, not taking care of employees/volunteers are also turn offs.