posting this without comment, decide for yourself ....
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/di...soline-engine/
diesel oil in gasoline racing engines ?
posting this without comment, decide for yourself ....
https://www.motortrend.com/how-to/di...soline-engine/
Ian Macpherson
Savannah, GA
Race prep, support, and engineering.
Many engine builders have been recommending diesel oil in old style vintage engines (e.g. Kent, Pinto) for years. It's all about the additive package.
Also, Mobil 1 motorcycle oil...
YMMV
full disclosure, we ran Rotella in Kents for years without apparent problems, but the article is still interesting.....
Ian Macpherson
Savannah, GA
Race prep, support, and engineering.
Ran Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel in my Pinto. High ZDDP.
Cheaper than the motorcycle racing stuff which I think was discontinued.
If zinc us what your after, look at the motor oil called driven, made by Joe Gibbs racing its excellent, my brother and I run it in our f5000.
I am just curious that is it safe to use diesel engine mobiloil in petrol bike ?
need answer in yes no please
As to the bike - I can't say - I just run a bottle of Mobil 1 motorcycle oil in the 200cc dual sport cycle and don't think about all the chemistry or the cost of a single bottle - and because it's not going to get changed all the time, I'm more concerned about the quality of the oil filter for the cycle
But I will say that the article from Hot Rod didn't make mention of the fact that often road racers are changing the oil after a rather short time of use - some recommend change after one weekend - some talk change roughly 150 miles which might amount to two weekends - now what does that do to the thought that the ZDDP changes in time because of application?...........versus a street car that will get thousands of miles before a change
Your bike might require a JASO MA-2 spec. I don't think the Mobil oils have MA-2. Some diesel oils do, like Rotella T6. If I remember correctly the JASO spec is for wet clutches and some auto oils can harm clutch packs.
A definite maybe.Originally Posted by Dan Wellington
Your best bet is to goto the forums that cover the particular bike the motor comes from. Some of the energy saving oils will not get along with wet clutches. Diesel oils have in the past. I ran Rotella T6 5w40 in the Saddle Sore 1000 CB250 as it had no filter other than a screen for large chunks. Also worked great in the 2011 fuel economy competition wining stock F650GS Dakar. The FF Kent used mobile 1 the builder recommended. I'd go with what the builder recommends.
Driven (Joe Gibbs) and Brad Penn / Penngrade are two that folks in the vintage Porsche world seem to like.
I use Joe Gibbs in my highly stressed old air cooled Porsche, but also add 1 can of BG MOA (per my favorite engine builder).
The point behind using the M1 Turbodiesel is that it's readily available. M14T is a crapshoot, and unless you live in the right places, M1 racing, Valvoline NSL, Gibbs, etc, all require mail order.
Racing is hard enough, not having to add oil suppliers to the never ending logistical list is a blessing.
It has always amused me that many people will swear by a certain brand of oil, but then not trust the engineers at that brand to know what applications their oils should be used for....
The guy in the article isn't identified as working for any company, and the comments are pretty generic. If the builders are good with it, and I'm getting 40 hours out of a bottom end, then I'm not worried about what motortrend has to say about it.
I've seen enough motortrend TV to know not to put any credence in anything they say unless I want to get a bunch of horsepower out of some bolt on headers....
The article is 100% accurate. I can verify everything that is stated with scientific research papers/articles. Available upon request as many PDF's.
You guys blow the importance of ZDDP all out of proportion. Takes a lot of miles to notice the improvement in wear, and then it would be only apparent at the cam/non-roller lifter interface. It has no benefit on the journal bearings. Not enough pressure/temp to form there.
Engine builder recommendation: No one short of the OEM's has done the research or has the equipment to research the use of ZDDP. The standard engine builders we deal with can only provide anecdotal evidence which has no value. At a minimum, their customers are simply not putting on enough miles to see the difference.
As I have stated before, decreased wear does not equate to reduced friction. ZDDP actual increases friction. The coating/layer formed is rough. This is a very small increase in friction, but if HP has the highest priority then you accept increased wear.
Brian
I wasn't actually referring to the author with my comment. I agree with everything in the article. In a previous position I was paid to do many hours of engine oil related research and can confirm the literature backs up his statements.
I think some of the common confusion here comes from the fact that most of the 'features' of engine oils are irrelevant under normal operation. Keep a bearing in it's design load and temperature range with some oil flow and it will run forever with zero wear, even if you use the cheapest oil on the market. So most anecdotes of positive oil experience are pretty meaningless. Add to that the fact that few if any engine failures could be reliability linked to oil performance without some other contributing factor, and you end up with very few people who have actual scientific information about lubricants.
Short answer: diesel oil will work just fine in just about any engine if you don't get it too hot and change it often. But it certainly isn't 'better', and most likely your race car will run slightly cooler, make slightly more power, and be slightly more tolerant of 'unhealthy' conditions if you put a good quality lighter viscosity gasoline engine racing oil in it. There are other factors for longer oil drain intervals too but on race cars those are irrelevant.
Again, the point of running the diesel is a reasonable amount of ZDDP that is simply zero in everything meant for a newer car, and the fact that you can buy it anywhere.
Yeah, I could run BG or some zippy zero weight stuff, but I'd get more performance increase by running a few sessions on the open practice day.
99 percent of us aren't going to notice oil performance differences unless we're running 50 weight at RA in the spring.
Bull.
Every parts store I've ever been to has had at least one brand of 'racing' oil, all of which has more zddp than you need. So does redline, so does Mobil 1. If you Google it, there are plenty of charts that show zddp content of a wide variety of oils, many of which are available at any parts store or Walmart.
Furthermore, zddp is not the only antiwear additive available, nor does it do anything useful at all under normal operating conditions, so the assumption that zddp content is the primary reason to chose an oil doesn't make a lot of sense
1) Yes, ZDDP is not the only anti wear additive, but it is by far the best when considering cost effectiveness.
2) ZDDP does not require extreme conditions. A protective layer forms under normal engine operating conditions.
3) When you consider the end user's knowledge about motor oil, using ZDDP content is about as good as any criteria for choosing a particular oil product.
Brian
Synthetic Oil Championship:
Royal Purple, Castrol, Motul, Liquid Moly, Lucas, Valvoline and Mobil 1 out in the first round.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWuKvnCq1js
Yes but you don't need or even use the protective layer under normal conditions. There is never metal to metal contact under normal conditions.
Most wear comes without metal to metal contact. Loads applied to a bearing surfaces impart a stress to those surfaces. In a simple example using a ball bearing the ball transfer a force --- through the lubricant oil film --- to the race. The race deforms and then reforms as the ball passes. This constant movement causes the surface to fail. Pitting at the macro level.
At the micro level, since the surface is really made up of asperities, I believe it is the asperities that are being acted upon by the stress. Again movement at this level does not require metal to metal contact. The ZDDP film reinforces the asperities and/or becomes the surface absorbing the stresses.
Although ZDDP has been around for almost a century and very widely studied, there is still a lot we do not know about it.
Brian
Bull yourself. Try living in the middle of BF nowhere. In my new location, and old, you can not reliably get M1-4T - you could go to O'Reileys, Autozone, NAPA, and WalMart and not scrape together enough quarts for an oil change, and there is absolutely no racing oil available at any retailer.
Current M1 has very little ZDDP.
State of Kalifornia and the feds really don't want race oil used in street cars to prevent the cat converters eventually plugging with additive metals. I buy mine mail order or go to Redline here where I live.
Diesel oils have higher alkaline additives to provide a total base number(TBN) as required by the big diesel engine manufacturers so the detergents keep the soot and fuel dilution in suspension for longer oil change intervals. It's not necessary in a race engine or production auto engine.
The two largest companies that sell the additive packages to the oil manufacturers and blenders are Chevron (Oronite) and Lubrizol.
“Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty.” -Peter Egan
It's getting worse everyday.
Lots of things you can't buy here - or order from Amazon for delivery here.
The latest were some 15w incandescent decorative bulbs.
Some online vendors haven't been cuffed or caught yet.
I think it's changed recently, but a few years ago I needed to replace my gas jugs and they couldn't be delivered here. Had them sent to a friend in lake Havasu and he brought them over when he visited.
You can still get them in motorcycle shops but they were twice as much as online. sold for "recycling" purposes.
There are several manufacturers of 3d print filament that can't be shipped here. It must be some kind of certification thing, because the same materials from other manufacturers can.
And every time I go to AZ or NV I pick up a case of Brakleen. Last time I bought some here CRC had changed the formula. Used to be just methanol and acetone. The new stuff is still mostly acetone, but they added something else that works much better than the methanol but it evaporates so quickly it doesn't leave much time to scrub. I still prefer the chlorinated solvent version.
They are not applying for the Prop 65 warning label.
If your not happy in CA, then please move out of state. One less car on the road, less pollution and some water saved. Those who stay can afford to make up the taxes.
Brian
For those Californians that need fuel jugs - check out Tractor Supply. Was there today for some paint and just $25 for the tall narrow version of the common track jug. Something must have changed recently in the law.
Nothing has changed in the law. TS sells them as Utility Jugs. Specifically state they are not to be used with fuel used on highways. Same thing with Rural King Jugs. I'm kicking myself for not buying 4 jugs for $100 at VIR. They looked like some sweet jugs
Interesting, my old standard Scribner jug (California) , “not to be sold for portable fuel transportation…”
I live in west Virginia. It doesn't get much more nowhere than this. I wonder if it is a California carb thing? If so I apologize, I hadn't thought of that.
FYI, current Mobil 1 has anywhere from 650 to 1850ppm of zddp. All the types you might consider putting in a race car are over 1000. It is pretty easy to check this stuff the spec sheets are all available....
Also the "utility" jug thing is nationwide not just ca. Fuel jugs are required to have a valve that stays closed which pretty much makes them all useless. As long as they don't call it a fuel jug they can sell all they want. Around here some gas stations will gripe at you for using them.
Many of my favorite stories have begun this way.....
The east has no concept of "middle of nowhere". You would have to draw a 100 mile radius around Ridgecrest to get close to the population of Morgantown's metro area - and then only because it would snag a little of Bakersfield and Lancaster. I used to drive 90 miles to buy a nice shirt.
An hour north of my old house is a valley you can go to that is so remote and quiet you can hear your heart beat if its not windy.
Supply issues are just a small town thing - and the replacement of small business by WalMart, Home Depot, Kroger, etc.
The jugs though - the shutoff valve thing started here in CA about 20 years ago. That was a CARB ruling. Did not realize it had spread elsewhere. Perhaps the EPA picked it up, as many regulatory agencies use Cali as a prototyper for things they do later.
Here's the mobi ! chart:
https://www.mobil.com/lubricants/-/m...EC97C2C1C5491F
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