FE2 vs FC

[andyllc]

For years Apexspeeders talk about how to revive the FC class. Super fun cars to drive, incredible bang for your buck, fun class. We say the class needs more weight, less weight, spec tires, Mazda's, more Pinto power, etc.
We talk about what it would take to get cars out of garages and people on track and all of this.
Now let's look at FE2. FE was never really a hugely populated class but FE2 has seen this class explode similar to when the Honda was introduced to FF.
What is it that FE2 is doing to get people to invest $50,000-70,000 in an open wheel class? The FE2 cars really aren't cheap to buy compared to a Van Diemen zetec that is still competitive. What lessons can FC learn from the growth of FE2?
The runoffs were great but does anyone believe that we will truly see large fields in 2022 (more than a 5% growth from 2021)?
People that are choosing to spend money on FE2 have certainly also seen FC and made a decision to go a different route.

What say you?

[Lotus7]

Whether or not they chime in, I know many people have ‘bench-raced” this question.
Personally, I believe FE2 is populated by a much larger number of drivers who have the spec-car-induced perception that they could win or podium on any given day.

[S Lathrop]

There is one big difference between the 2 classes. FE2 is a spec class. Everyone runs the same thing. The learning curve is way shallower to getting up to speed in the class.

FC on the other hand is a "formula car class" with a set of rules that all the cars must conform to but there is a lot of freedom in how you choose to conform to those rules. This makes the learning curve a lot steeper as one works to get up to speed in the class.

The cost of getting into FC can be very low if one starts with an older car and then over time as he learns more about the class, he can trade up in the class to a more expensive/competitive car. FE2 has almost a fixed entry price that is not far from a front running FC. Also all the spare parts for FE2 are single sourced vs FC which is an open market and can be more competitively priced.

From my years working as a race engineer with a lot of drivers, I found the drivers who came up through FF and FC had an advantage over the spec car graduates when it came to doing car setups. In a many of cases they had a lot of experience working with car setups to get the car they wanted vs. settling for the best that the package they were given could be.

[problemchild]

Whether or not they chime in, I know many people have ‘bench-raced” this question.
Personally, I believe FE2 is populated by a much larger number of drivers who have the spec-car-induced perception that they could win or podium on any given day.

Yes, and as much as some people whined about spec FC tires, there is a huge attraction (for many people) to spec tires, spec shocks, spec wings, one engine, one transmission, spec gears, etc. I think that leads to an emphasis on participation and driver development.

However, the proverbial "once the horse is out of the barn" situation gets applied. FE started with a clean sheet of paper in the years when FC was exploding with whizzy expensive wheels, shocks, wings, undertrays, serious engineering, etc. While there is some overlap in the target demographic, the classes are attracting different people.

Do you prefer oranges or apples?

I will suggest that there is nothing to stop FC racers from putting their emphasis on participation and driver development. IMO, that needs to continue if the class revival is to continue.

[EricP]

I eyed FE... but FC was cheaper on the outset and I enjoy tinkering. So I went with FC.

Unfortunately lately I have had to be tinkering more than driving but still... I enjoy the deeper hands-on aspect of FC over a spec car.

I sat in an FE2 car a few weeks ago. It seemed roomier and maybe a bit safer. Don't know if that factors in for folks...

[Bob Wright]

I would add to the 'clean sheet of paper' phrase; It continues to have that: "Oh, you want 180 hp instead of 150? Sure" "You want a 6 speed sequential gearbox? Sure" "Paddle shifts? OK" There are no rules constraints beyond what Enterprises wants to do. No CRB, no letters, no member input. The development of the FE2 was in response to what people indicated they wanted in a junior formula car that easily could have been the evolution of FC but wasn't. While the original FE was clunky and (a bit) crude, the FE2 has evolved into a pretty nice machine so it is no wonder its attracting an audience.

[E1pix]

Personally, I believe FE2 is populated by a much larger number of drivers who have the spec-car-induced perception that they could win or podium on any given day.

Perception can be everything, and I think you’ve nailed a big factor here.

Looking in from outside, at least in appearance it seems to be competitive in FC requires a lot of tuning wizardry. That’s fine for those who have it, but it takes years of time and thousands of dollars to learn the hard way, and young upstarts are short of time — and/or the funding for real engineers and coaches required to shorten the curve.

It’s natural that questions of “Is it me or the car?” arise, questions that are vastly eliminated in Spec classes. I believe part of these impressions were born in the Pro days of F2000 (not to be confused with USF2000) and are hard to erase in short-term history.

Another factor I see is “new car syndrome,” and that is born and bred in karting. If I’m on a limited budget hoping to get noticed, the perception is to start with “full-new” and immediately have a chance to succeed against similar equipment and driver experience levels.

The fact that FE was never designed to be a Pro class furthers these concepts, at least in the mindsets of those trying to make a quicker mark on the sport. To a watching potential sponsor, what Elliot Finlayson was able to do at Indy in 2017 — utterly dominate straight from karting in a Spec series, and in a tiny team — to me was far more impacting than a winning driver running out of a prep shop where equipment and support and money call into question just how superior the driver really was.

I actually believe it’s easier on a new driver to have only one chassis and engine resource compared to choosing the right shop, the right motor, the right shocks, the right gearing, and all else involved. When time and money are both short, the straightest path is the one everyone else is on.

The first gen of SRF showed up when S2000s were everywhere. My first thought was “Why would anyone do Sports Renault over S2000?” Well, I soon understood and we all know how that turned out.

All this said, all FC guys owe a huge debt to John Larue, Mike Eakin, and everyone else who have tirelessly pushed FC along in venues such as here. With more of that spread around, the longevity of Formula cars have a much-better chance.

[Robert Finlayson]

E1pix, I don’t know who this is but thank you for recognizing what Elliot and I were able to do. It was as awesome run. For us, FC was never seriously considered. We didn’t want to always be wondering if our opponents had a better chassis, engine, shocks or whatever. We learned that lesson earlier racing Rotax in karts. We wanted it to be about driver and setup only. I knew if those were the only factors, we stood a good chance of winning. I know that some of you like the ability to engineer your own car and that’s fine. It seems to me though that you spend more time arguing about those very things then you do racing.

[Jonathan Lee]

Elliot ran a phenomenal weekend at the runoffs!

[andyllc]

I have roughly 7500 miles in a zetec. I am very familiar with the class and love the class. I am not trying to decide which class is better. What I am hoping I (we) can learn is if there is something that FE2 did that can be applied to FC to make an actual difference in entries for FC? I would love to see FC consistently draw the same entries as FE2 currently does and consistently have a turnout at the Runoffs like Indy 2021.
Is it really as simple as being all spec? I feel like there is more to it than that. FF isn't spec and it has seen a resurgence in the last decade from the decade prior.
FRP is a well run program but typically only had 7-ish entries this year, despite Bob consistently promoting the series and offering incentives for people to come run and allowing as many different car types as possible. Just trying to figure out (as we all have on here for years) what is missing to get more people in the class. (Personally, I don't think there is going to be any bringing cars and drivers back that have parked their cars. It could be those people selling those cars to new owners but I think their days are over and growth will come from drivers not currently in the class)

[Jonathan Lee]

Wow 7500 miles is a lot!

[DaveW]

Andy & Jonathan,

Good observations. There are not a lot of driver/owners like me (79 YO) out there to keep the FC/F2000 class going. I've been hooked on the at-the-limit-driving drug since I first flogged our retired '47 DeSoto on the tractor paths and between the vineyard rows on our farm. I even crashed my bicycle a few times. From back then before I had a driver's license I was hooked on driving at (over) the limit. Once I got a license it was fun seeing the expressions on passengers' faces when I drove at the limit on the street.

I've never lost that passion, and probably never will. I even enjoy the challenge of trying to quickly repair my car after an incident. Basically, it's overcoming challenges and competing that keep my blood flowing. It'll likely be some physical issue that will eventually make me stop. It certainly won't be a lack of desire.

[John LaRue]

Here are the numbers:

2021 Majors - Formula Continental averaged 4.6 cars per race; FE2 averaged 5.6 cars per race.

2021 Runoffs - Formula Continental 31 entries; FE2 28 entries.

2017 Runoffs - Formula Continental 13 entries FE1 35 entries.

I would suggest that due to a stable rule set, an excellent/durable tire that is available for $730/set, and a great group of racers who have contributed positive internet and social media postings the class has seen a resurgence and has a positive trajectory. Let's not worry about comparisons, but rather focus on forging a stronger Formula Continental community where we encourage participation and interaction. These cars are certainly more involved than an FE2 but there are ample resources to help the less experienced racers get up to speed and resolve any issues. FE2 is a great class as well and both can flourish - what do you want chocolate or vanilla?

[Jonathan Lee]

John - I completely agree with you, promoting encouragement and working under the table to organize highlighted events is the way to go.

[Rick Kirchner]

if you are going to let the USF 2000 cars in, why not the new FMs with the 2L motor? Pretty much same/same

[E1pix]

E1pix, I don’t know who this is but thank you for recognizing what Elliot and I were able to do. It was as awesome run. For us, FC was never seriously considered. We didn’t want to always be wondering if our opponents had a better chassis, engine, shocks or whatever. We learned that lesson earlier racing Rotax in karts. We wanted it to be about driver and setup only. I knew if those were the only factors, we stood a good chance of winning. I know that some of you like the ability to engineer your own car and that’s fine. It seems to me though that you spend more time arguing about those very things then you do racing.

You’re welcome, Robert.

I’ll start by clarifying I was at Indy to photograph a friend’s kid in your class (their first year, finished 9th). My wife and I chatted with you awhile in your garage, we live on the road and I raced karts at Dousman as a kid, and think we talked a little about that.

I hope my post didn’t have you thinking I am a potential major sponsor for you and Elliot — but the impressions you guys left are the same as if I was. You were nearly a second quicker than 34 other cars every session all week, and that just doesn’t happen in Spec classes!

I have been searching awhile, though, for a young driver to trade my services in exchange for our logo placement. Finding the right kid can be hard when some seem unappreciative of their fortunes — but Elliot stood out in this area, too.

I am really tempted to retire, and am on a long-earned sabbatical deciding that now — but only racing seems to be tempting me to give it another go, as an associate, and/or to race myself. This explains some details: https://ericwunrow.photoshelter.com/about

We send best wishes for Elliot’s future. He certainly has one should luck and relationships come your way.

Edit: Sorry for the diversion, everyone.

[Keith Carter]

People are finally seeing that in club racing, for the weekend warrior that doesn't live to engineer race cars, spec is king. There are people out there that love the car development side of things. The latest aero package, the hot fuel of the week, or who has the most competitive tire out there... Being an extremely low budget team of my father and I, we were over it. We went from FC to FE back when engine hours were night and day between the two. When it came down to avoiding track time to save precious miles on a fresh Elite Pinto in order to stay relatively competitive in order to fight for P5 or 6 at a National event, we came to the realization that we couldn't sustain the expense or time commitment in order to move any higher. This was especially true when the $25/gallon rocket fuel became popular. FE2 (FE at the time) was a better fit. Spec tire, spec fuel, spec gears, spec aero... It allowed us to focus more on why were were racing such as improving the setup and improving my driving and not buying the latest lightweight bodywork or low drag downforce setup. It's not to say that we had to buy those things in order to be competitive, but it removed those things from the equation when seeing how competitive we were.

[Chris Livengood]

"couldn't sustain the expense"

It costs exactly the same to develop an open package car as it does to develop a spec car. The dollar amount is exactly what you are willing to spend.

You might be better focused on certain things because things are spec, meanwhile other people are running 100 spec sensors through the dyno and picking out the best ones.

This is racing.

[Bob Wright]

I might add that getting a spec car to the pointy end is MORE expensive (as Chris alludes to above) and time consuming because the window of adjustment is narrower.

What makes the FE 2 so interesting is the development over the last few years (I might add at the snap of a finger by Enterprises) while the other competing formula cars in Club are held stagnate.

[BrianT1]

Right now there are arguments going on in FE2 about all the recent changes. They just had over 20k in engine and gearbox upgrades, now there talking about 10k in paddle shifts. When all said and done that car will be close to 70-75k which makes no sense. You could buy an F4 car with all that for 57k and its much safer.

Me I prefer FC but I know from experience in looking, that current FC cars for sale are pretty scarce. Eric from Quicksilver is going to be importing new chassis from Ray at a reasonable cost and if we consider letting the USF cars or at least allow the MZR motor in it will bring in a bunch more cars. The new FM with the MZR is not currently built to our formula so that is a no go in my opinion.

Brian

[CScharnow]

I find the perception of the spec classes rather interesting. If you pay any attention, you'll notice that it's mostly the same guys winning year after year in those classes too. Doesn't matter if it's FE, SRF, SM. The front runners have clearly figured something out, and yet the perception is always down to it just being the driving and not the development.

I don't claim to know much of anything, but maybe the classes aren't as different as many perceive.