Weaving (Blocking?)

[RussMcB]

Did anyone else watching the Runoffs wonder what SCCA's rules were about weaving to keep a competitor behind (or, to "break the draft")?

I watch so may different types of racing I forget which ones have what rules (and I'm too lazy to search the GCR).

I remember thinking, "Whoa, you can't do that", and that I'd see a black flag soon (but didn't).

Just wondering if anyone else had that immediate reaction. I'm not sure what my personal opinion is about it. It seemed wrong, but then again, it is for a national championship. And apparently, SCCA must be fine with it.

[John Nesbitt]

The 'official' answer from the GCR:

6.11.1 On Course Driver Conduct


D. ... The overtaken driver is responsible to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the
overtaking car. A driver who does not use his rear view mirror or who appears to be blocking another
car attempting to pass may be black flagged and/or penalized ...


Normally interpreted as "one move". However, over the years, I have not seen a ton of enforcement. I noticed that the commentators on the feed from the Runoffs kept talking about "breaking the draft".

[problemchild]

A lot of people were upset about the start of the FF race. Unfortunately, the quality of officiating in SCCA, FRP, etc is such that drivers who want to race that way, are allowed to ....... 99% of the time. We are asking older people, who may never have raced, certainly at this level, to sort through piles of video, and make judgement calls. They are incapable of understanding context. If you are in a race with lots of other stuff to judge, then you will surely get away with dirty stuff. If the race is uneventful and boring, then the officials are much more able to focus on particular incidents. While this may seem like an attack on specific people, I am actually pointing out the realities of racing at this level. It is what it is. Every Monday morning, we debate the crazy decisions made by pro officials in the best professional race events in the world. If they cannot get it right, how do we expect SCCA to get it right?

[FVRacer21]

The 'official' answer from the GCR:

6.11.1 On Course Driver Conduct


D. ... The overtaken driver is responsible to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the
overtaking car. A driver who does not use his rear view mirror or who appears to be blocking another
car attempting to pass may be black flagged and/or penalized ...


Normally interpreted as "one move". However, over the years, I have not seen a ton of enforcement. I noticed that the commentators on the feed from the Runoffs kept talking about "breaking the draft".

I guess it falls into "attempting to pass" In FV the draft can extend many car lengths behind to the point where, the pass is not imminent. If we assume that the following car does not have to take action to the movement of the leading car, then I guess the leading car can drive down the straight anywhere he wants - as if he was the only car on the track.

The one move comes in when the leading car positions the car to block (legal) but then moved a second time to block (illegal).

ChrisZ

[EYERACE]

Skip Barber days..........I'm thinking I'm allowed one move.......example: coming out of the Sebring carousel and into that long sweeping right hander which heads into the straight and then the hairpin. Over to the left pretty much at exiting the sweeper and onto the straight I move well over to the right to break the draft of the car behind me. I hold that line on the right down that short straight and as I'm braking for the hairpin move fairly well back to the left to hit the proper turn in point for the hairpin, hit apex next, come out of corner.

I was surprised when the Skippy people with that specific part of the lap in mind mentioned to me after that session that I was allowed one move - so they sort of said I had done wrong even though I thought each move was quite a distance from each other.

And sometimes it matters who are the Corner Workers and Officials.

[swiftdrivr]

I thought the start of the FF race looked like Michael Schumacher's driving: the part of his driving that made me dislike him. I don't weave that much on a straight even when I'm warming my tires.

[alangbaker]

I think there is a genuine distinction between driving to break the tow of the car behind and blocking.

If the driver ahead is breaking the tow, he is using track that the driver behind CANNOT use (because he doesn't yet have the speed advantage to get alongside).

If the driver behind does have the speed, then it turns into blocking and you get to pick one place to position your car.

[E1pix]

The 'official' answer from the GCR:

6.11.1 On Course Driver Conduct

D. ... The overtaken driver is responsible to be aware that he is being passed and not to impede or block the
overtaking car. A driver who does not use his rear view mirror or who appears to be blocking another
car attempting to pass may be black flagged and/or penalized ...

Normally interpreted as "one move". However, over the years, I have not seen a ton of enforcement. I noticed that the commentators on the feed from the Runoffs kept talking about "breaking the draft".

Thanks for the thread Russ, I thought the very same about several back-and-forth weaving moments in a few races.

The rule’s wording is “interesting” in its incompleteness, and without seeing the video again, it almost indicates the weaving has to *prevent* an actual pass rather than potentially impede one a second or two off yet.

Such are the vagaries of interpreting unclear rules, or perhaps my flawed reading.

That said, I hated seeing it, for lots of reasons.

[TDI PILOT]

Agreed, there is a big difference between breaking the draft of the car behind and purposely blocking in a weaving fashion when the trailing car is clearly making a move to pass and is in close proximity to the leading car. This is especially heinous and dangerous when the closing rate of the trailing car is fast or when the weaving from the leading car is done during a braking event from a high speed straight to a slower corner like T1 at IMS road course. I saw some of this being done in the 3rd-5th place group in the F500 race at the Runoffs.

[Hardingfv32]

This is just a 'Mickey Mouse' way to drive. Enjoy the process of racing , not just winning.

I would not hesitate to put a blocker/weaver into the wall. Not the hardest thing to do on a straight. This is the only way to get through to some drivers.

Brian

[FVRacer21]

This is just a 'Mickey Mouse' way to drive. Enjoy the process of racing , not just winning.

I would not hesitate to put a blocker/weaver into the wall. Not the hardest thing to do on a straight. This is the only way to get through to some drivers.

Brian

Do I have to say it.....

This is not the wild west

Every car has to have a camera on it.

You walk up to the stewards with the video and the protest fee.

End of discussion.

ChrisZ

[alangbaker]

This is just a 'Mickey Mouse' way to drive. Enjoy the process of racing , not just winning.

I would not hesitate to put a blocker/weaver into the wall. Not the hardest thing to do on a straight. This is the only way to get through to some drivers.

Would you perhaps like to rethink what you just said?

[Mike B]

Note to self: don't ever participate in a race with Brian Harding.

[Raceworks]

Note to self: don't ever participate in a race with Brian Harding.

He doesn't seem to realize that the trick with getting away with felonies is to not state your intentions in a public medium that's practically impossible to delete information from. That's a special kind of stupid.

[Rick Iverson]

Never mind. Forgot what I was going to say.

[Robins Ken]

Did anyone else watching the Runoffs wonder what SCCA's rules were about weaving to keep a competitor behind (or, to "break the draft")?

I watch so may different types of racing I forget which ones have what rules (and I'm too lazy to search the GCR).

I remember thinking, "Whoa, you can't do that", and that I'd see a black flag soon (but didn't).

Just wondering if anyone else had that immediate reaction. I'm not sure what my personal opinion is about it. It seemed wrong, but then again, it is for a national championship. And apparently, SCCA must be fine with it.

If you are fast enough to get going on L1 it's never an issue.

See ya....

[Darryl Wills]

Drivers coming into SCCA from karting don't see anything wrong with weaving down the straights. This is common practice in karting. Personally, I do not have much issue with weaving, even though it's not my style of driving, as long as the driver chooses a line in the braking zone and holds to it.

[TimH]

Somebody please educate me here:

P1 weaving must be slowing himself down. It seems like P2 and P3 should be able to draft themselves right on by. What am I missing?

[LarryWinkelman]

The 'official' answer from the GCR:

6.11.1 On Course Driver Conduct.

I don't have an issue with weaving to break the draft, except that the GCR also has Appendix P, which states in #5, "No weaving to break the draft or to block; that is more than one move."

And 6.11 begins with, "GCR Appendix P contains the Racing Room and Passing Guidelines which further define the intent ofthis GCR Section."

And further, in GCR 1.2.3. Interpreting and Applying the GCRA. Interpreting the GCR shall not be strained or tortured and applying the GCR shall be logical, remembering that the GCR cannot specifically cover all possible situations. Words such as “shall” or “shall not”, “will” or “will not”, “can not”, “may not”, “are” or “must” are mandatory; and words such as “may” and “should” are permissive.

Unfortunately, I am aware that some SOMs have stated that they're not bound by Appendix P because it's just a guideline, not a rule. That sounds like a strained interpretation to me. I just wish there were some consistency. Eventually someone in a large pack of cars will weave to break the draft, misjudge the gap, and cause a huge wreck. And then maybe SCCA will clarify.

[John Nesbitt]

...

Unfortunately, I am aware that some SOMs have stated that they're not bound by Appendix P because it's just a guideline, not a rule. That sounds like a strained interpretation to me. I just wish there were some consistency. Eventually someone in a large pack of cars will weave to break the draft, misjudge the gap, and cause a huge wreck. And then maybe SCCA will clarify.

On the narrow question of Appendix P, it is just a guideline, and not a rule.

In a similar fashion, stewards have a set of penalty guidelines. They follow those guidelines in about 80% of cases, and do something either more or less severe in about 20%. The Court of Appeals has ruled repeatedly that they are guidelines, and not hard-and-fast rules.

The rule is stated in 6.11.1.D, and App. P is supposed to help with interpreting the rule. My own sense is that 6.11.1.D is quite adequately clear as written. App. P may just muddy the waters. What is needed is the will actually to enforce the rule.

[swiftdrivr]

Somebody please educate me here:

P1 weaving must be slowing himself down. It seems like P2 and P3 should be able to draft themselves right on by. What am I missing?

I have always wondered about that myself.

[problemchild]

Somebody please educate me here:

P1 weaving must be slowing himself down. It seems like P2 and P3 should be able to draft themselves right on by. What am I missing?

The guys who drive this way have been taught and perfected their skills over many years. It is all about timing. As PT calls the "Pruett Fade", you drift, and then change direction at the perfect time, so that the following drivers have some hesitation, or need to change direction, just enough to break their momentum. Ideally, you set them up to get the preferred position, then throw the block to give them the less-preferred position coupled with momentum loss. You need to be selfish and narcissistic. No one ever heard Michael Schumacher apologize for his antics that disgusted many of us. Many others of us consider him a God.

We all choose how we live our lives, and how we want to compete on the race track. I will take Martin Truex or Matt Kenseth, and give you Joey Logano and Kevin Harvick. It is nice to see Kharma in action, but sometimes takes too long!