Future of Racing?

[SteveG]

I guess I know what I'm doing for the next 1 hr 45 min.

Watching the Six Million Dollar Man in a Volkswagen 917 being chased by the Penguin in an F86 Sabre was epic don't you think?

[E1pix]

One of our Apex members who hasn't posted here in a long time, was a writer/director for one of the big movie houses. The first script that he ever wrote, way back as a 20 year old, was made into a really bad movie about a dystopian future where cars were banned, called The Last Chase, staring Lee Majors and Burgess Meredith, and a very badly faked Porsche 917. He absolutely hates what they did with his script!

Look it up - it is worth the watch if only for the laughs over the bad acting and plot.

A bad flick with Lee Majors? NEVER!

As with most public conversations like this — whether by civilians, politicians, media, planners, doesn’t matter — the real issue driving everything is... wait for it... too many people.

< runs and hides, account hack >

So far as the topic, everything takes longer than we think — and internal-combustion engines will power most race cars for another ten to twenty years, maybe longer, in my opinion. On the topic of China being a vile polluter, since they are, lest we forget who bought their wares and built this mess, solely to save some money.

A lot of what’s amiss is on us, Folks.

[problemchild]

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...future-racing/

Those wacky Germans with their windmills, recycling, solar power ...... Now they are building electric race cars.

When will they learn?

Really? This awesome electric race car, and people start talking about old bad movies.

1000+ HP! 0-60 in 2.5 seconds!

[Steve Bamford]

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...future-racing/

Those wacky Germans with their windmills, recycling, solar power ...... Now they are building electric race cars.

When will they learn?

Interesting, why wouldn't this be the future? Currently we often hear Indy Car teams managing fuel usage so why not manage battery usage, what's the difference as you are still managing energy consumption.

[jchracer]

Interesting, why wouldn't this be the future? Currently we often hear Indy Car teams managing fuel usage so why not manage battery usage, what's the difference as you are still managing energy consumption.

let me preface this as a friendly counterpoint but electric race cars still make no sense to me. The power density of even the best batteries can't come close to a liquid or gas fuel, so the power to weight ratio for an electric car will be inferior. Also, I am not a fan of working on or around a battery system capable of putting out over 300 amps at 900 volts....likely instant death if you are part of any short circuit. Hydrogen or ethanol/methanol can be combusted in a net-zero carbon fashion and makes the kind of noise that most people equate with exciting race cars. Hydrogen has it's safety issues as well but ethanol/methanol can be handled with similar precautions as Gasoline. Green fuel powered race cars are the future, not battery powered.

[Steve Bamford]

let me preface this as a friendly counterpoint but electric race cars still make no sense to me. The power density of even the best batteries can't come close to a liquid or gas fuel, so the power to weight ratio for an electric car will be inferior. Also, I am not a fan of working on or around a battery system capable of putting out over 300 amps at 900 volts....likely instant death if you are part of any short circuit. Hydrogen or ethanol/methanol can be combusted in a net-zero carbon fashion and makes the kind of noise that most people equate with exciting race cars. Hydrogen has it's safety issues as well but ethanol/methanol can be handled with similar precautions as Gasoline. Green fuel powered race cars are the future, not battery powered.

You raise good points on getting fried. I imagine they will come up safety precautions, perhaps working on engines will become a thing of the past & only chassis adjustments.

[R. Pare]

Watching the Six Million Dollar Man in a Volkswagen 917 being chased by the Penguin in an F86 Sabre was epic don't you think?

Some friends and I had he and his son over for a barbeque one night a few years ago. Unbeknownst to him, we were setting him up to give him a "frustrated writer" award. He had already been part of an Oscar, so we named this one a Felix ( remember The Odd Couple?). When we started playing the movie, he looked like he was going to kill one of us - until I gave him his trophy:



He now has it prominently displayed in a glass case in his trophy room!

[Rick Kirchner]

lThe power density of even the best batteries can't come close to a liquid or gas fuel, so the power to weight ratio for an electric car will be inferior.

Why? That assumes the system weight of the car just replaces liquid fuel with the battery - not necessarily the case. The motor can be lighter than an equivalent ICE. Because of the torque, a transmission is not always necessary and if one is needed, likely to have fewer gears. There's less cooling required, which means less system weight for the coolers and all the support structure associated with them. With software, you can shape the power delivery so you might be able to reduce the stress on some of the driveline, making it lighter, without sacrificing performance.

Working on high voltage systems - just a different skill. Linemen do it every day. The more people engineer the stuff for a specific purpose, the safer it will become.

[jchracer]

Why? That assumes the system weight of the car just replaces liquid fuel with the battery - not necessarily the case. The motor can be lighter than an equivalent ICE. Because of the torque, a transmission is not always necessary and if one is needed, likely to have fewer gears. There's less cooling required, which means less system weight for the coolers and all the support structure associated with them. With software, you can shape the power delivery so you might be able to reduce the stress on some of the driveline, making it lighter, without sacrificing performance.

All likely true for a street vehicle but I am not so sure for a dedicated, high powered race vehicle unless the race vehicle is only designed for a very short race distance (range). As the race length increases, the more fuel or batteries will be required to be carried onboard and the batteries will be much heavier compared to fuel to cover the same range. Battery replacement at pit stop is one option I suppose….that seams scary. Race vehicles will be running close to max capacity (accel and regen braking) and will likely require similar levels of cooling for the batteries, controllers and motors. Interesting engineering challenge for sure but interesting engineering challenges do not always make for the best racing experience for either the driver or the spectators.

Working on high voltage systems - just a different skill. Linemen do it every day. The more people engineer the stuff for a specific purpose, the safer it will become.

Agreed but it’s virtually impossible to be killed instantly by a fuel powered race car unless it falls on top of you. It’s the risk of instantaneous death thing that would take the fun out of the experience for me.

[problemchild]

Battery replacement at pit stop is one option I suppose….that seams scary. .

As opposed to 18 gallons of (invisible flame) ethanol 5-10 times per race (Indy 500).

Perhaps just change the whole car, as they were doing in Formula E. Everyone says world-class motorcycle racing is the ultimate in motorsport viewing. Don't riders change entire bikes during some events?

[jchracer]

As opposed to 18 gallons of (invisible flame) ethanol 5-10 times per race (Indy 500).

Perhaps just change the whole car, as they were doing in Formula E. Everyone says world-class motorcycle racing is the ultimate in motorsport viewing. Don't riders change entire bikes during some events?

I guess that's an option. MotoGP allows bike changes when changing from dry to rain tires. I think Formula E drivers switch to a car with a fresh battery at mid race now. Big budget required for all that extra equipment.

[Fred Michael]

I guess that's an option. MotoGP allows bike changes when changing from dry to rain tires. I think Formula E drivers switch to a car with a fresh battery at mid race now. Big budget required for all that extra equipment.

The last car change was in Season 4. We are now preparing for Season 8 which will be the last for the second generation car. The cars can now make the full race distance of 45 minutes plus one lap easily.
The Gen 3 car will be very different from what we have been told but no details have been released publicly yet. Expect power, range and speed to dramatically increase. (as it did with the Gen 2 car)

[Fred Michael]

Why? That assumes the system weight of the car just replaces liquid fuel with the battery - not necessarily the case. The motor can be lighter than an equivalent ICE. Because of the torque, a transmission is not always necessary and if one is needed, likely to have fewer gears. There's less cooling required, which means less system weight for the coolers and all the support structure associated with them. With software, you can shape the power delivery so you might be able to reduce the stress on some of the driveline, making it lighter, without sacrificing performance.

Working on high voltage systems - just a different skill. Linemen do it every day. The more people engineer the stuff for a specific purpose, the safer it will become.

The powertrains are quite light compared to ICE and gearboxes. The batteries are quite heavy but expect that to change as the technology matures.
Cooling is a huge issue as heat leads to battery and motor inefficiency as well as the need to keep controller temps in line.
Another weight savings comes with the use of smaller brakes when there is a regen system being used.
The rear brakes on the current Formula E car for instance are controlled by a Brake By Wire system that pretty much stops using the mechanical system once the ability to use full regen is achieved.(you can grab the rear carbon disc with your bare hand after a long run). We suspect that the Gen 3 car coming in Season 9 will not have rear brakes at all and will rely on regen for all rear stopping power.
Something that is also larger on the Formula E car is the axles. They are quite beefy . (larger than our Indycar axles)

[Rick Kirchner]

If you are trying to refuel (recharge) quickly, the solution is not batteries, its supercapacitors,

[R. Pare]

Back when they started the electric race car competition for the FSAE college kids, one of the teams came up with a really slick setup that allowed them to change the battery pack in something like 16 seconds, where everyone else took many minutes. Needless to say, their system was almost imnediately banned.

[R. Pare]

If you are trying to refuel (recharge) quickly, the solution is not batteries, its supercapacitors,

The only problem with supercapacitors is when they get shorted out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ67njnNaxw

[Rick Kirchner]

The only problem with supercapacitors is when they get shorted out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQ67njnNaxw

like a top fuel blower explosion