Should/Could We Bring FSV Back?

[problemchild]

So Hoosier....

Now we are essentially locked into a single supplier, and no doubt an ever shrinking customer base there.

I did not understand what point was being made in this post ..... but from what I can see, whether vintage or SCCA or FRP, Hoosier is the best friend the open wheel club-racing community has. Since their major competition faded, they are making better tires, that last longer, and keeping costs under control. I don't know where we would be without them. Thanks!

[billtebbutt]

Hey, I was one of those people that couldn't understand why I would ever need a camera on my phone. Admit it, many of you felt the same way at the time.

Why would I, as an upwardly mobile college grad, buy a race car? To get dirty? Hang out with grease monkeys? Where would i put it in my 1 bedroom loft (with no parking for a truck, let alone a trailer)? Sleep at the track in my tow vehicle, or a tent? Heaven forbid. How will I stand the heat of Summit Point in July without constant AC and a constant drip feed of hi-tech electrolytes?

That all sounds like work, and lots of it. I can get all the competition I need, and immediate/constant gratification (because that's what real-time soc med does for me), with a mere fraction of the investment and NONE of that backbreaking work/sweating/swearing. I'll just go sim racing, thank you very much. And that is the future of our sport.

Now of course, I won't learn nearly as much, nor make the types of real friendships that could provide meaning in my life. Nor will I have the laughs, the physical triumphs (and the failures. Oh, the failures...)But I gave those up years ago when I adopted an online, real-time, cash flow pay, immediate gratification lifestyle.

Sorry. Gotta go. Starting my Uber shift so I can pay for the booze for tonight's binge........

bt

PS. Am racing the 492 and the RF90 at Mosport this weekend. Gotta get it in while we still have places to race

[BeerBudgetRacing]

.... the insurance problems the club was having then were the result of formula cars ...

Just curious if you know.
Is it:
open wheel
open cockpit
lack of windscreen
all the above?

What about open cockpit fendered cars? Sport racers, MG or Miata with no windscreen or lid?

[S Lathrop]

Just curious if you know.
Is it:
open wheel
open cockpit
lack of windscreen
all the above?

What about open cockpit fendered cars? Sport racers, MG or Miata with no windscreen or lid?

It was someone ranting. The implication was open wheels.

At that time, FF and FV were the 2 biggest single classes. Fields of 50 or more cars per those 2 classes were common. If the accident rate of those 2 classes were no different that say the more popular production classes, because of the numbers it would appear that FF and FV were an insurance problem just because of numbers.

[Rick Kirchner]

I did not understand what point was being made in this post ..... but from what I can see, whether vintage or SCCA or FRP, Hoosier is the best friend the open wheel club-racing community has. Since their major competition faded, they are making better tires, that last longer, and keeping costs under control. I don't know where we would be without them. Thanks!

Today I ran across a great quote for a writer at 'The Week': "Solving a problem requires grasping its true character. That can be difficult, especially when those attempting to devise a solution are immersed in the context that produced the problem in the first place."

The point was that Hoosier drove the cost up dramatically. Don't see how you missed that.

Since their major competition faded.... A problem they more less created - not to say it hasn't been good business for them. For us, not so much. Sorry, I'm not going to give them kudos for it.

Where we would be without them? Probably at least 30% lower tire costs at the top and a lot less farther down the grid. No doubt more cars.

They certainly are more consistent than Goodyears which saves time in setup, even for the duffer, although Avons are as good there, if not better.

[Rick Kirchner]

Steve I can say this with respect to the risks and crashes. Back in the day the drivers meeting frequently had admonishment directed at the FFs and FVs for their driving behavior. Don't recall that for any of the other classes. Our stewards now still talk about it. So their rant may have had more than a little basis in fact.

I could pretty much guarantee writing up a couple of near totals, if not complete totals, out of those groups on a national weekend, as well as a half dozen others that would come in on the hook.

I recall a miserable rainy weekend at the April IRP National and watching the start of the FV race, and being able to see into the cockpit of a FV in T1 as he was launched completely vertically and I'd guess nearly 10 feet into the air. That car broke in half at the main hoop, and given how stout the frames on those things were I was pretty astonished.

The only sedan I've ever seen as broken as a formula car was Russ Theus' hot rod Lincoln, which went drivers door sideways sideways into the armco at the fire truck entrance down by scales.

Years later I watched a guy crash a PFM at Zorros Corners at Buttonwillow, and that was the most broken formula car I've ever seen with the possible exception of Ongias, Bedard, Smiley, and Dismore who hit concrete at twice his velocity. Hell it broke the brake rotors and cracked the tub. He did walk away.

Interestingly it seems the deaths now (outside of pro) are almost all sedans. A numbers game now that there are fewer of us and much more of them perhaps?

[S Lathrop]

Steve I can say this with respect to the risks and crashes. Back in the day the drivers meeting frequently had admonishment directed at the FFs and FVs for their driving behavior. Don't recall that for any of the other classes. Our stewards now still talk about it. So their rant may have had more than a little basis in fact.

I could pretty much guarantee writing up a couple of near totals, if not complete totals, out of those groups on a national weekend, as well as a half dozen others that would come in on the hook.

I recall a miserable rainy weekend at the April IRP National and watching the start of the FV race, and being able to see into the cockpit of a FV in T1 as he was launched completely vertically and I'd guess nearly 10 feet into the air. That car broke in half at the main hoop, and given how stout the frames on those things were I was pretty astonished.

The only sedan I've ever seen as broken as a formula car was Russ Theus' hot rod Lincoln, which went drivers door sideways sideways into the armco at the fire truck entrance down by scales.

Years later I watched a guy crash a PFM at Zorros Corners at Buttonwillow, and that was the most broken formula car I've ever seen with the possible exception of Ongias, Bedard, Smiley, and Dismore who hit concrete at twice his velocity. Hell it broke the brake rotors and cracked the tub. He did walk away.

Interestingly it seems the deaths now (outside of pro) are almost all sedans. A numbers game now that there are fewer of us and much more of them perhaps?

Funny you mention seeing other driver's face at tense moments. I remember looking at what seemed eye to eye with another FV driver as I drove under his car and he passed over my car. That was at the 180 degree turn behind the grand stands at IRP.

[problemchild]

Today I ran across a great quote for a writer at 'The Week': "Solving a problem requires grasping its true character. That can be difficult, especially when those attempting to devise a solution are immersed in the context that produced the problem in the first place."

The point was that Hoosier drove the cost up dramatically. Don't see how you missed that.

Having been involved on both sides of the Goodyear/Hoosier fence since the early 80s, I have missed that. I bought my first set of Goodyear FV slicks in 1981 and they cost just over $600. Perhaps it was over $400 ..... but it was a crazy amount. That much I remember! They had skinny front tires that were half worn out in one race (race not event). That I can now buy a set of FF or FC tires for $8-900 that are good for 8-10 sessions ..... 40 years later ..... seems to be in contrast to your premise. Perhaps you need to be immersed in the context that produced the problem, in order to understand the problem.

Before I blamed the tire companies, I would choose to blame the leaders of our classes in the late 80s and 90s who did not clamp down on technology, but let racers spend wildly, often providing those whizzy new parts. It is not a coincidence that the most populated OW racing now is based on cars with 70s and early 80s technology. But blaming those leaders/vendors or tire companies ..... certainly is a worthless exercise now. It is too late to even learn from the mistakes made then. Singling out one tire company is humorous.

[SteveG]

Having been involved on both sides of the Goodyear/Hoosier fence since the early 80s, I have missed that. I bought my first set of Goodyear FV slicks in 1981 and they cost just over $600. Perhaps it was over $400 ..... but it was a crazy amount. That much I remember! They had skinny front tires that were half worn out in one race (race not event). That I can now buy a set of FF or FC tires for $8-900 that are good for 8-10 sessions ..... 40 years later ..... seems to be in contrast to your premise. Perhaps you need to be immersed in the context that produced the problem, in order to understand the problem...

FWIW, 30 some years ago I could buy a set of Goodyear, Firestone or Yokohama slicks for my FF2000 or S2000 for ~$650 mounted and balanced. Hoosier didn't make a quality FF2000/S2000 at the time. Firestone dropped their tire a year or 2 later so it was Goodyear and Yokohama, price went up to ~$700 and stayed there for the next few years. the Goodyear 430 and Yokohama's lasted about 2 weekends if I was careful, Goodyear 160 was good for 1 weekend.
While I didn't closely follow FC/S2 tire prices when I wasn't running in either class, I did notice when Hoosier came out with a competitive tire, prices immediately jumped to just under $1000.
Today, I can buy Hoosier, Goodyear or Avon(Cooper) bias ply tires of the same size for ~$1350 mounted and balanced. When I asked my local tire dealer why a set is the same price regardless of make, he mentioned his profit on the Goodyear's and Avon's was the highest and Hoosier the lowest. When I shopped other tire dealers, found the same pricing. Hmmm, go figure.

Steve

[problemchild]

Today, I can buy Hoosier, Goodyear or Avon(Cooper) bias ply tires of the same size for ~$1350 mounted and balanced. When I asked my local tire dealer why a set is the same price regardless of make, he mentioned his profit on the Goodyear's and Avon's was the highest and Hoosier the lowest. When I shopped other tire dealers, found the same pricing. Hmmm, go figure.

Steve

You need a new tire guy if he is telling you that the new Hoosier spec FC tire is $1350. Buying a different brand from a dealer of a particular brand, is always going to be discouraged, regardless of the product.

Clearly, it must be Hoosier's fault that our OW classes are in decline.

[Rick Kirchner]

Well we agree on a couple of things like this:

"I would choose to blame the leaders of our classes in the late 80s and 90s who did not clamp down on technology, but let racers spend wildly, often providing those whizzy new parts. It is not a coincidence that the most populated OW racing now is based on cars with 70s and early 80s technology. "

I hadn't gotten around to discussing that particular issue yet, but as an example, nobody really needs floating rotors - yet it drove the cost of each corner well beyond the $60 in extra bolts....There's plenty of other examples, some good, some bad.

But this is where you are dead wrong, and one of the reasons that we keep doing the same stuff over and over again expecting a different result:

"But blaming those leaders/vendors or tire companies ..... certainly is a worthless exercise now. It is too late to even learn from the mistakes made then."

I started out by explaining why the military spends so much time on history - so they don't repeat the mistakes of the past. Virtually every exercise ends with a discussion of lessons learned. The USMC actually has a headquarters organization that compiles and cross-references them all. When new concepts are explored, authors go back to that repository and search through the lessons as they apply to the new concepts. New concepts are run through their university system as fodder for research and dissenting opinions are encouraged.

When your organizations leaders and its participants have no tolerance for analysis or being shown as wrong its beyond help.

[Pi_guy]

I am going to go off:
As I point out to my HS hockey team that I coach,when I played for the HS cars were dangerous and sex was safe. It was girls and cars in the 70's. Now we are dealing with a whole new world. Now there is a much bigger percentage actively routing against the use of private cars and everything should be public transportation. There is another group that could care less about having a drivers license.

Back in the 70's F1 was exciting and random and there was a ladder system of sorts, privateers could enter one off races. Things were kind of focused. There were numerous race series and you could find something for your ability and $$, there were no noise free weekends at Lime Rock was all race events. Then you started to see the other stuff showing up from racing Semi trucks to lawn mowers. With a minimal amount of work you could be a national champion of something. The same thing happened in ski racing we went from the standard Olympic SL GS and DH to the current crop of snowboard and free style stuff. Honestly there are only so many people that are capable of being a racer that having so many choices leads to dilution in everything.

Technology once it is out of the bottle you can't put it back. Everything evolves or should, it is hard to witness change. We had money galore from the cigarette industry made racing roll. Should we go back to that habit to help bring back racing?
Here on LI we once led in aviation companies so technology was all over the place often there recreation was technology based like racing. That ain't happening anymore here.

I joke that the kids growing up today will never play pond hockey. There is a bunch of kids that play street hockey every Tuesday evening the parents have a coach come by and run the game.

I have no answers or suggestions I wish I did but I think there is no one factor just the sum of everything.

[problemchild]

When your organizations leaders and its participants have no tolerance for analysis or being shown as wrong its beyond help.

Yes. We are talking about open wheel club racing. knowing that "it" is beyond help, I focus my efforts on studying the events of the last 5-10 years, hoping that some small amount of change may have some small chance of happening. Blaming class leaders, vendors, and tire companies, for errors made 30-40 years ago does absolutely nothing to help us manage the palliative care condition that we find ourselves in today. No deep analysis is required to know that it is bad business to trash the major partner that we are depending on today ........ and tomorrow.

[Rick Iverson]

…….I started out by explaining why the military spends so much time on history - so they don't repeat the mistakes of the past. Virtually every exercise ends with a discussion of lessons learned. The USMC actually has a headquarters organization that compiles and cross-references them all. When new concepts are explored, authors go back to that repository and search through the lessons as they apply to the new concepts. New concepts are run through their university system as fodder for research and dissenting opinions are encouraged.

Called AARs