CRB advisory on FC Zetec

[jonbaytos]

Hey Ron,what does LOLOL mean?Be gentle,I just arrived at this party.I just hope Lisa @ Bobby O dont see this.The Capes' already know I can't even get messages off my own cell phone!Technology is a wonderful thing. See you at the beer party with Church and Byer's.
See Ya-JB

[Ron B.]

Laughing out out = LOL. I added the extra "OL". Not sure why, but I was beside myself at the time.

Welcome to jungle! Better get there before Byers does. Wait - you can have mine - Church doesn't allow drinking before the work is done. Usually around midnight....

Woohoooo!!!!

[Dave Belz]

Originally posted by Jeff Owens:
Once a month I find myself reading this debate and it never changes. We all voice our opinions and then it starts to get a little more personal.

...Which is where the progress comes to a complete halt. Then there's a lull, and about six weeks later somebody's innocent question about what car to buy starts it all up again...

One idea that I've not seen floated in this or at least one previous thread since I started regularly visiting this site is starting a completely new class. FZ

Copy and paste all of the existing FC rules into the new class. Add a provision to allow varying engines in FZ, both now and in the future. Run FC and FZ together in 30 car fields until one either dies out or the other grows too large for car count limits.

Curtis - I didn't see a quantity in your remark regarding $45k for a new aluminum head casting. Is that for a single prototype or a production run? If production, I'd think you could pre-sell enough in advance (on this forum) to pay for the first run.

Dave

[carnut169]

In the southeast we have an FZ. Its called FS!

Run what you bring and be a creative as you want. I am seriously considering running in FS next year with a 2.3 (if I can make it fit) or a modified 2.0. Others (like PF) have thought about motorcycle power.

[D.T. Benner]

I love FS but for those who aspire to go to the Runoffs it's not very appealing. For me it lets me do things like a 190HP Zetec,5 speed LD-200 and aero mods. I can see why many people want to keep the Pinto and I support their point. [img]smile.gif[/img] Maybe FZ/FC is an option?

[Rick Kirchner]

Hmmm...

Esslinger just announced 2.3 and 2.5 L crate motors for $7500-8000 bucks.

225 Hp @6700, 190 ft-lbs from 3800-5600

Aluminum head, roller cam.

There's an FC guy in Montana??? Helluva tow from there to anywhere.

[carnut169]

Rick-

I believe that if you do some digging you can build a 2.3 for even less. I picked up one of Esslinger's ARCA heads (aluminum, roller cam, dual springs, TITANIUM valves- complete with intake and exhaust manifolds) for less than you might think.

I've been shopping for short blocks, a carb and dry sump systems.

They have one more (ARCA head) if anyone is interested....

[Scott Dick]

Hey Guys whats going on? I have really enjoyed all of the comments about Pinto verses Zetec over the last couple of weeks but you guys arent talking onymore. From my stand point, I have been racing a Pinto FC for the last 10 years and have loved every minute of it. I recently have sold my 2001 Pinto Van Diemen and was about to purchase an older vintage Brabbham BT-29. However as soon as my FC left the garage I couldnt stand the fact that after all of these years of racing with alot of the same great bunch of guys I was moving on. Sooooooo, I decided to buy a new 2005 Zetec Van Diemen so atleast I will be able to run with all of my friends. I am looking forward to the increase in power and the soothness of the Zetec. Either way you look at it, the FC is by far the most bang for the buck. I am also curious who else is considering buying a new Zetec? Wishing all you a wonderful holiday and a Happy New Year. See ya in the spring. Scott Dick FA27

[Thomas Copeland]

Congrats on your decision to buy Zetec. I'm heading that way too.

Decided this probably is my last year in a pinto car (regardless of what the SCCA decides on engines...when they decide evenually...I doubt if this thing is completely over). Going all out and spending more than 11K to upgrade my current pinto car (bodywork refurbish, new paint, engine, aero stuff, hardware, chassis rebuild, name it..) with the idea of competing in Pacific F2000, some SCCA nationals and will try to do the runoffs (finally, maybe, that is if I can afford it). Then hopefully selling it (it'll still be in great condition with low engine miles) and moving up to Zetec. If not, then I'll convert it to Zetec. It's a good car with a good history, (buy something else and I don't know what I'm getting). Pinto still has life and will work fine for FC but there may also be other engines available for FC as well eventually...(who says we can't have more than one engine in FC...or 2 or 3, or 4, for that matter? ...)

Wish everyone the best whatever path you choose...

[Curtis Boggs]

Curtis - I didn't see a quantity in your remark regarding $45k for a new aluminum head casting. Is that for a single prototype or a production run? If production, I'd think you could pre-sell enough in advance (on this forum) to pay for the first run.

Dave

Dave, .. the $45k is for patterns & molds, etc, .. doesn't include first run, .. I'll talk to my friends
at Indy cylinder heads about this, .. they might be interested in casting it.

Might be a moot point tho, .. if Zetec comes in then the work on a 2.L aluminum head would be waisted.

As for me next season, .. I don't know. I REALY like FF, .. little aluminum head race engine I can tinker with, .. .. Zetec would be cool and I love the cars, .. but I can't port the head, .. or should I say I couldn't get caught porting the head.
All the other racing I've done in my life has always been open format, .. the smarter you are the faster you go. So the idea of a spec car I can't touch is not something I'm used to, .. not that there's anything wrong with that.

Curtis

[Curtis Boggs]

Just for a little perspective, .. OK, .. just cause I think it's funny.

Compare an NHRA 500" pro stock engine to a 2.L

OK for every 10 runs down the track a 500" has to have new valve springs, ..
as they open the valve over ONE INCH. springs $450 a set, ..
10 runs + burn out maybe 10 minutes of run time per set of springs.

Rebuilds, .. after every week end, .. total time between rebuilds, ..
20 minutes of run time, .. rebuild cost, .. a crap load more then a pinto!

My last drag car, over 10 years ago was a comp class car. 310" small block
chebby, .. shifted at 10,500 rpm, .. valve springs where crap in those days, ..
I got about 8 runs on $300 a set springs.

See why I like my little 1600 so much, .. I can run the *&%$ outa this thing
and it still runs next week end, .. if I don't crash.

It's not so bad, ..

Curtis

[D.T. Benner]

Rich Kirchner has a good idea BUT remember the limits of the gearbox will determin how far you can go. If you want to change the type of gearbox you run[to handle the extra grunt] you will not find anything that bolts in. The machine work and redesigning of the rear suspension alone would be big $$$. undefined Just changing form an LD-200 4 spd. to an LD-200 5spd. with a limited slip diff. is costing me a bundle. I hope that by shifting with the clutch I can make it live. To Curtis-If you want to tinker with a Zetec they are very receptive to mods and still live. There is a ton of stuff out there for Zetecs as they are very popular with the street tuner crowd. There are 4 brands of forged rods alone! Ford SVT Racing parts has cams and I just bought a nice Ford racing SVT cyl. head with stainless valves that you would probably love to play with Only drawback would be no invite to the Runoffs. Sandy at Quicksilver built my engine an what a JOY it is to drive

[dereklola]

[QUOTE=Rick Kirchner]Hmmm...

Esslinger just announced 2.3 and 2.5 L crate motors for $7500-8000 bucks.

Newby question - are these the same base engine as the 2.0L Pinto/FC/S2000 engine?
Thx - Derek

[carnut169]

No, but they do share a bolt pattern.

[Curtis Boggs]

To Curtis-If you want to tinker with a Zetec they are very receptive to mods and still live.
I just bought a nice Ford racing SVT cyl. head with stainless valves that you would probably love to play with

D.T, yea, I know they like mods, .. you might have one on your Quicksilver.

You SHOULD send that SVT head over for me to play with, .. I know Just what to do with it, ..

Curtis

[D.T. Benner]

Actually Curtis all Sandy did was change to JE pistons with a little more compression[I wanted to be able to use avgas not race gas],Ford Race parts cams with adjustable sprockets on both cams,stronger rod bolts and a little touch of porting around the valves. We picked up 30 HP and it sings to 7200 RPM. I just bought the Ford Racig head and may use it later. The inside dia. of the FI intake trumpets is to small to allow a lot of porting in the head. There is another intake avail. but it's a lot bigger and would probably hurt the low end power but would sure benefit with some of your expert work I want everyone to know that Sandy and I are not trying to make anyone think that this engine is pro legal. This is a FS car and not an attempt to cheat in any way.

[Scott B]

Curtis,


I am in the process of putting a Zetec in a Ralt RT4, hoping in give Darrell a run for his money in FS in 2005. Ordered everything from Sandy at Quicksilver (oil system, water pump changes, etc). Have a second stock Zetec head. Would you be interested in seeing what HP can be developed? If so, please email me at blueheroninn@sbcglobal.net Once this is all done, and if it proves to be reliable will send a list of parts and sources to anyone interested. So far it looks like a direct bolt in to the bell housing, and all the needed parts are on the shelf at either QS or a company in England that makes Zetec conversion parts for Lotus 7.

Scott B

[Curtis Boggs]

a little touch of porting around the valves. We picked up 30 HP and it sings to 7200 RPM.
The inside dia. of the FI intake trumpets is to small to allow a lot of porting in the head.

DT, yea, I've ported a few of those for Sandy, .. the others went out of the country. Just light porting in the valve bowl area and rework of the short turn radius.

As for porting on your new head, .. I'd be carefull regarding the size, small is better. They don't like to made bigger, .. the cross sectional area of these heads is VERY critical, .. like any head really. The trick is correcting the area around the short turns, .. the proper area under the seats for the venturi at the valve seat, .. and fixing the dividing wall in the ports. Important tip if you are going to "tinker" with them, .. the area under the seat, .. like inside the 60º or the throat needs to be 90% of the valve size. The area at the apex of the short turn needs to be 96 tp 98% of the valve area.

Scott, .. I've been working this head, Cosworth, Honda B16 / B18, Toyota & Duratech in mostly drag racing applications. So I've already done a fair amount of initial R&D on these heads.
I'd love to really flog one for road race use to see what could be done. Since R&D is my thing, ( USAC sprint car projects, drag racing, comp, etc ) I'm always up for a "project"
The only thing I will say about this, .. and one that concerns me with the Zetec for FC as well, .. they aren't very rebuildable. The head, if it's over heated and damaged, a $2,500 ported head can be toast.

Now, I don't want to hi-jack this thread, .. so more conversation along these lines should be by e-mail ( curtis@cboggs.com ) or on another thread.

Curtis

[Rick Kirchner]

My comments on the eslinger were more for an FS consideration. It is essentially the same motor as the pinto, about 1/4" larger across the head, and with the distributor moved back a couple of inches. Esslinger cast the head in aluminum and the pony stock crowd has been shouldering the development of these things for years. There are hundreds of thousands of these things in 1980's pintos, mustangs, and even early 90s Ranger pickups.

Compared to doing a zetec conversion on a pre-98 car, dropping an Esslinger in would be a piece of cake, and quite a hoot on quad mikunis!

Torque will always be an issue with the LD-200. Somewhere back in all these threads I tried to make a point that we (racers) were seriously out of sync with what the manufacturers were producing.

There's a limit to how fast you should go in a tube frame car given the "open" nature of our class - redefine the tubing sizes and some other minimum dimensions, and you might be able to bump our speeds up into the 160 mph range. That's where we'll be if we try to use the current generation of four cylinders in a small open wheel race car. The public wanted more horsepower AND more torque, and the manufacturers responded with all kinds of whizzy stuff plus a bump from the 2L standard of the 70s, 80s, and 90s, to over 2.5L that approaches 200HP in the street car, on unleaded regular.

Moving to a carbon tub is big $, as is beefing up all the components to handle the greater HP/Torque.

With Ford poised to re-enter FF in the UK, it's more important than ever for the club to develop a real set of class philosophies for open wheel, or else the factories will do it for us. Not that that's necessarily bad, but it might be interesting to see a concept from somebody other than Ford (Mazda).

Look around out there for low HP/Torque motors that would be suitable to develop into a race motor of about 150 hp. There are damn few of 'em. Pretty soon we will have to de-tune street motors to make them acceptable for racing!

[D.T. Benner]

The Zetec in sealed pro. trim IS a detuned street engine! Thats why it goes 5000-10000 racing miles. A Honda S2000 street engine would probably do the same.