Adopt Euro Flagging?

[Bardahl77]

Really just one thing - a green at the turn station after the previous station displaying a yellow. It would eliminate the guesswork of "no passing until after the last component of the incident causing the yellow flag."

Isn't "The yellow flag is in effect until a green flag is shown at a subsequent turn station" much easier to interpret?

I'm sure this has been discussed before, but it shouldn't be a big deal because green is in every turn station's flag set, always discarded to the side.

[Peter Olivola]

In principle, I agree, we should be running closer to the FIA flag rules. As a practical matter there's a significant difference between U.S. and European tracks that makes it problematic. The corner stations in Europe are generally closer together than in the U.S. We require only line of sight as a maximum separation. Most European circuits are certified to a higher FIA rating that most U.S. tracks and the maximum distance between stations is less. That means there is a larger amount of track that would be yellow, taking away more racing distance.

Another factor is how the U.S. has responded to on track incidents. There are more and more tracks requiring full course yellows before allowing safety crews to respond while refusing to allow corner workers to leave protection.

If we were turning out more corner workers it might be possible to shorten the distance between stations, but, alas, things are going in the other direction.

[Rick Kirchner]

Yeah, but all it does here is lengthen the yellow a few hundred yards more, while giving the drivers the surety that they won't incur an infraction. Works regardless.

[problemchild]

The reality is that you will hardly ever be able to pass a car you are racing with, before the next station, if you follow him by the incident. This does, however, let faster cars in different classes continue their races, by lapping slower cars. Considering the multi-class format of most SCCA racing, that would be a good thing in most incidences. Probably makes virtually no difference for cars in the same class.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Clearer communication is always better.

[Zonker]

.....The corner stations in Europe are generally closer together than in the U.S. We require only line of sight as a maximum separation. Most European circuits are certified to a higher FIA rating that most U.S. tracks and the maximum distance between stations is less.....

I was once told that the FIA requires a flag post every 500 meters (547 feet). Not sure if that is still valid.

[Bardahl77]

I guess one question would be how much it would cost to install notification lights at turn stations to back up or replace flags. Obviously some form of RF control would be necessary to let either crews at the station or before/after and also the race control to activate/deactivate.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

I was once told that the FIA requires a flag post every 500 meters (547 feet). Not sure if that is still valid.

Think it still is:

the distance between consecutive posts (disregarding
supplementary posts) should not exceed 500 m;

https://www.fia.com/circuit-safety

Appendix H - Page 6

[Zonker]

Think it still is:


https://www.fia.com/circuit-safety

Appendix H - Page 6

Thanks for the reference, I'll tuck it away for future use.

[Earley Motorsports]

I was once told that the FIA requires a flag post every 500 meters (547 feet). Not sure if that is still valid.

500 Meters is half a kilometer (1,640.42 feet). I think the distance maybe a little off.

[Tom Grossmann]

So I will jump in with a few thoughts even though I'm late to the party so to speak.

If you're driving a front running car, I'd like to think that the driver has the capacity to get he most out of the car and process information. Most good drivers I know can do this.

As for the not so good drivers, I'm not sure there is any rule change to fix that, we've all seen drivers make a pass under a waving yellow. Be they fast or slow, folks with the blinders on and/or suffering from red mist, usually need a trip to the stewards to fix their issues.

Having been on both ends of the spectrum (leader / lapper ) I don't think that changing the rule would make a huge difference. The FIA rule is good as it leaves no room for interpretation but I personally like the rules as they are now. As a lapped car it's not uncommon to have faster class of car be in your way mid corner, the sooner those faster classes go by me the better. As a front running car I don't want to be stuck behind slower cars.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

So I will jump in with a few thoughts even though I'm late to the party so to speak.

While I agree with your thoughts, I think the OPs intension was to adopt the FIA flagging rules for the purposes of better communication and safety, not positions, etc.

When we look at/for a station, we see a flag before we see 'the station' because flags are designed to attract attention.

Let me demonstrate:
Positive communication (a green flag) is better than a silent station.
You probably saw the flag icon before you even read the post.

[Zonker]

500 Meters is half a kilometer (1,640.42 feet). I think the distance maybe a little off.

You are correct, I did my sums incorrectly.

500 meters is a bit less than 1/3 mile.

[problemchild]

Having raced with both procedures, the difference is negligible. As I mentioned previously, the SCCA process minimizes the chance of slow or lapped cars interfering with faster cars that are racing together, or vice versa. While on the surface this is a competitive element, it is equally a safety element. Along the lines, of the expression "cautions breed cautions", bottling up cars behind a slower car for a longer time, just concentrates the aggression once released. I don't think one is safer than the other.

[Tom Grossmann]

@beerbudgetracing while your point about positive communication is a good one as some drivers don't have the capacity to drive and process information but I'm with Greg on this. Drivers aren't known for their patience and often make rash decisions when frustrated. Stacking drivers up seems like it would compound the issue. Just my opinion naturally.

[problemchild]

Drivers aren't known for their patience and often make rash decisions when frustrated.

Many of the rules issues we have today are related to the focus of the drivers. Many of the younger drivers have a very limited attention span and focus. They grew up with radios, reduced quantity of flaggers, and fast-tracked licensing. We also have many older drivers with vision issues and reduced processing capacity. I include myself in the latter before anyone takes offense. My point being, that those drivers who started in the 80s and 90s were dependent on flaggers for all communication. You needed to understand what they were telling you, apply that information for safety reasons, but also your competitive advantage. I just don't think that drivers, crew, or officials treat the flagging process that way today.

So you come back to the situation that most parents go through. Do you tell your kids to follow the system because it works (although not fashionable), or do you modify the system to make it easier for them to abide by ( despite it being their lack of effort and focus that is the biggest problem). You can substitute drivers for kids in the above statement and it has the same message.

So, yes you can improve the systems and processes, but we are still dependent on the human element for successful implementation. As we know, it tends to be the same people that miss flagging messages repeatedly, and complain about the poor flagging, while the other 85% manage to see and understand those same flagging messages.

Some problems you will never fix,

[BeerBudgetRacing]

@beerbudgetracing while your point about positive communication is a good one as some drivers don't have the capacity to drive and process information but I'm with Greg on this. Drivers aren't known for their patience and often make rash decisions when frustrated. Stacking drivers up seems like it would compound the issue. Just my opinion naturally.

I guess I'm not understanding why positive communication, in thus case a green flag instead of no flag, would stack things up.
After a yellow you resume racing after the last part of the incident. Judging WHEN that is becomes the problem. I've seen drivers think they've past it only to encounter a secondary incident. Maybe that needs to change too.
So a green would tell everyone racing resumes at this point.

[Tom Grossmann]

I guess I'm not understanding why positive communication, in thus case a green flag instead of no flag, would stack things up.
After a yellow you resume racing after the last part of the incident. Judging WHEN that is becomes the problem. I've seen drivers think they've past it only to encounter a secondary incident. Maybe that needs to change too.
So a green would tell everyone racing resumes at this point.

Good point; I have to say I honestly wasn't thinking of a secondary incident, I can't really think of my having ever encountered this but it does indeed happen. I have to admit to being conflicted between my usual leave no room or interpretation (positive communication) and expecting drivers to work at a certain level...…………..even though I know some drivers can't drive and process information at the same time. Note I'm the ADD poster kid, so if I can manage this...………….also note I know this isn't a realistic attitude but it doesn't stop me from thinking it LOL.

As for stacking things up, I will use an example from the VARA race I did at Buttonwillow in October. On the last lap, a driver spun going over Phil Hill, myself and another driver were dicing for the glory of 9th place, the leaders came past us on the approach to the Cotton Corners, because we were clear of the incident they simply went by in the brake zone. If they'd had to wait until after the next flag station (at the top of the hill) they would have been stuck behind me through that section. We're still sorting my F500 and so it's 1-2mph slower through the corners than the leading S2000s.

While I may prefer the current procedure I wouldn't be opposed to the FIA procedure.