1990 Prince SR5 B-Mod - $12,000 or Trade

[stevekh44]

66 year old driver looking to slow things down a bit. Selling my 1990 Prince SR5 DSR / B-Mod. I have made numerous improvements to the car since owning.

• Low mileage 2008 GSXR 1000 motor (under 6,000 miles)
• New Hyper Racing wiring harness
• Steering wheel shifting, pneumatic with on-board compressor
• Taylor LSD
• Electric power steering
• 13" x 8" & 10" Keiser wheels
• New quick steer rack
• New master cylinders
• Wilwood calipers
• Zebulon front and rear wings
• Mounted Hoosier rains on steel wheels
• Car weighed 860# last time on the scales
• Will accommodate a tall driver. I'm 6'4"

Extensive spares including (3) 2002 Yamaha R1 motors.

Pat Prince only built one SR5. There is a fair amount of information about the car on the web. I do have the log book for the car.

I'm interested in moving into a slower mod class with a better PAX. Willing to trade for CM, DM, EM or FM. Looking for a car that will fit a tall driver.

Can help with delivery within reason for gas money. Located in upstate NY.

Car is off the market. Co-driver wants to keep the car. We are going to try Avons and Ankeny prepared Penskes.

[provamo]

?

[stevekh44]

PAX is a national index system that is used to allow cars from different classes to run against each other. B-Mod has a multiplier of .96. Other mod classes are much lower. In the northeast, sites are smaller/slower and it is difficult for a B-Mod to make up the index. My car is usually FTD, but mid-pack on index. At 66, I still want to compete for a win, not just FTD.

[Lynn]

If you want to compete for a PAX win, you had better stay away from E Mod. The carbon fiber, turbo rotary Bugeye from San Diego has set that bar too high.

[stevekh44]

I don’t disagree. I use to run F-Mod and frequently ran top 10 in PAX for the event. I have also run E-Mod. I could do well locally, but ran mid pack at Nats. If the car sells, my 1st two choices would be C-Mod or F-Mod. I would really like to get back into a formula car.

[Jim Garry]

Oh my gosh ... what did I do???

[stevekh44]

Jim, The answer to that question lies in how this turns out.

[stevekh44]

Price change to see if I can get some interest before the snow gets here. New price - $9,500.

[ChristopherBernard]

You could buy my Seven and run DMod. Proven national championship car. In the right hands.... Unfortunately that probably eliminates me. Championship was 20 years ago????Ugh!!
Just joking, it's my first born, never be able to part with it...

[B17overhead]

I don’t disagree. I use to run F-Mod and frequently ran top 10 in PAX for the event. I have also run E-Mod. I could do well locally, but ran mid pack at Nats. If the car sells, my 1st two choices would be C-Mod or F-Mod. I would really like to get back into a formula car.

1st, anything that Pat Prince made was designed and built to very high standards. This is potentially one of the fastest BM cars available anywhere at any price. 2nd, FM is an extremely high value with respect to low cost to buy, low cost to maintain+ run, AND high available chance to win on a stable equitable playing field (rules-wise)
BUT, one cannot skimp buying any old FM chassis! Most need a new floor pan (like a used S2000 or DSR or FF1600, but probably even more so since so many FM F500 are sprung very stifflyand were run on very bumpy solo pavements)

and Hi to Chris Bernard! long time... You know ur old 7 could be updated if you have any interest in running it again in anger.

[ChristopherBernard]

1st, anything that Pat Prince made was designed and built to very high standards. This is potentially one of the fastest BM cars available anywhere at any price. 2nd, FM is an extremely high value with respect to low cost to buy, low cost to maintain+ run, AND high available chance to win on a stable equitable playing field (rules-wise)
BUT, one cannot skimp buying any old FM chassis! Most need a new floor pan (like a used S2000 or DSR or FF1600, but probably even more so since so many FM F500 are sprung very stifflyand were run on very bumpy solo pavements)

and Hi to Chris Bernard! long time... You know ur old 7 could be updated if you have any interest in running it again in anger.

Hi Chuck, Long time indeed! Seven would probably need more ballast. SCCA Loves making small and light into heavy.

[Lynn]

For DM in 2021, the proposed weight for all cars (under 2 liters) is 1400 pounds.

[B17overhead]

For DM in 2021, the proposed weight for all cars (under 2 liters) is 1400 pounds.

Driver weight could potentially be a significant factor in times, so DM and EM official weight breaks include driver.

That 1400 lbs. that you mention can be 1225 lbs of car if the driver weighs an average 175 lbs.

For those who choose to run a lighter "car", the option of running in BM is available. There were cars starting to be built for DM that had carbon fiber bodies and motorcycle powerplants that would have quickly obsoleted everything else in DM. - However, to prevent them from being orphaned or forced to be totally uncompetitive in AM, there were special allowances so they could run in BM. They can run aero to the BM rules also. Again ,all BM weight breaks include the driver.

BTW, there was significant member input against allowing wings in DM EM back when the big rules revision took place.

You can indeed have an influence on whatever you feel is "wrong" in your mind about any proposed changes in any class. Lynn said "Proposed weight for all cars under 2L would be 1400 lbs." The word "proposed" hopefully mean that new rule's member input is not closed yet.

The new Aero rule in Prepared is still open to member input, I believe. I personally would argue that wing and splitter area needs to be tied to car weight since the possible weight RANGE for each of those classes is extremely wide.

[Lynn]

The Board of Directors should approve a long list of rule changes at their December meeting. Anyone competing in DM or EM should should check out the December Fastrack for the extensive changes being made to those two classes.

[B17overhead]

The Board of Directors should approve a long list of rule changes at their December meeting. Anyone competing in DM or EM should should check out the December Fastrack for the extensive changes being made to those two classes.

If member input to MAC and SEB is closed and that particular set of rule changes for DMEM has moved to the BOD, one can still contact their BOD area representative or simply write to the BOD itself to support or argue against proposed changes. Obviously, the more members you can muster to support your cause the better. It is surprising how few members actually DO anything meaningful to influence rules making compared to the number who complain! Just a paltry 3 letters on any particular rules topic was always lot of input in my experience.

[ChristopherBernard]

Driver weight could potentially be a significant factor in times, so DM and EM official weight breaks include driver.

That 1400 lbs. that you mention can be 1225 lbs of car if the driver weighs an average 175 lbs.

For those who choose to run a lighter "car", the option of running in BM is available. There were cars starting to be built for DM that had carbon fiber bodies and motorcycle powerplants that would have quickly obsoleted everything else in DM. - However, to prevent them from being orphaned or forced to be totally uncompetitive in AM, there were special allowances so they could run in BM. They can run aero to the BM rules also. Again ,all BM weight breaks include the driver.

BTW, there was significant member input against allowing wings in DM EM back when the big rules revision took place.

You can indeed have an influence on whatever you feel is "wrong" in your mind about any proposed changes in any class. Lynn said "Proposed weight for all cars under 2L would be 1400 lbs." The word "proposed" hopefully mean that new rule's member input is not closed yet.

The new Aero rule in Prepared is still open to member input, I believe. I personally would argue that wing and splitter area needs to be tied to car weight since the possible weight RANGE for each of those classes is extremely wide.

Yikes! That would mean 200 lbs of ballast in a 1037lb car. Times have changed! The class just drifts towards the mediocre!

[B17overhead]

Yikes! That would mean 200 lbs of ballast in a 1037lb car. Times have changed! The class just drifts towards the mediocre!

Yeah, I know it's hard to process when news like this hits you out of the blue.

This may not help you feel better, but here are some thoughts.

I'm only guessing as to intent, but the change appears to actually be trying to include as many cars as possible with equality to keep the class alive.

Again, I don't know any details, but I'd wager a guess that this change was due to member request(s)

Regardless of origin, you could have argued against it.- IF you knew about the request for change. And perhaps you still can, if you contact the BoD.

Going forward, as I mentioned before, just Like any other car that is significantly lighter than the majority of other cars in DM, you will still have the option of leaving it at its current weight and running in BM.

This following story may not make you feel any better either, but it demonstrates that adding large amounts of weight is not always such a horrible thing.

I have a friend here in AZ who added 380# to his Lotus Elan in DP. He used it very effectively for CG and weight bias fore-aft and left-right tweaking. Then... he took ALL the weight out to run the car in DM and it was horrible handling. It was bicycling up on 2 wheels at Nationals and I believe he bent the front upright and maybe the rim when it crashed back down. He went from being competitive in DP (was leading the class for a while and finished fairly high a few Nationals ago) to bottom of the pack in DM in 2019.

[B17overhead]

I do not see that the SEB has approved the rules changes for DMEM and passed it to the BoD since the December issue of Fastrack requests member input on wording still.

I have no horse in this race, but out of curiosity, I read all the 2020 Fastracks.

In May it looked like this for DM cars like Chris's with small engines:
"The MAC is recommending changingthe Modified weighing requirements such that classes DM and EM would weighwithout driver. This affects the minimum weight specification values inAppendix A, which are proposed to be amended as follows:
Modified class D (DM)
B. Weight of car only (nodriver)vs. computed displacement (lbs.):
• Piston engines,normally-aspirated up to & including 1800 cc ..... 1080#

July apparently killed off the all the small engine breaks, just like Lynn mentioned.
It was also back to weighing with driver and there are no breaks for 12A rotary or 1800cc and smaller 4 stroke.


The MAC is seeking memberfeedback on a set of possible changes for DM and EM. Conceptually those changeswould be as follows:
1. one weight for each class
2. no weight penalty for tubeframe cars
3. allowing wings with penalty
4. lowering the penalty fortraction control/abs systems
The goal is to not force cars torun wings/make changes to their cars, but to allow cars that are over minimumweight to be able to bolt on speed and go faster. Also to allow XP/SM cars tobump into Mod.

DM - 1400 (2.0 liter and under)

EM - 1700 (unlimiteddisplacement) no electric power plants
Allowed performancemodifications with weight penalty would be as follows:
SCCA Fastrack News July 2020 Page 6
1. Rear Wing Allowance with a200 pound penalty. Wings may be added, attached to the chassis or body behindthe center line of the rear axle. The total combined area of all wings shallnot exceed 8 sq feet. Wings must be locked into a single position, not adjustedwhile in motion.
2. ABS / Traction Control /Stability Control Allowance with a 100 pound penalty. Any ABS / tractioncontrol or stability control system(s) are permitted, including standard parts.
A large section of the rule bookwould go away (the whole section about frame/stock tub/mod tub). The rest ofthe rules would remain intact.
Note: Because other classeswithin Modified have less favorable power to weight ratios along with driverbeing a much higher percentage of total weight; the MAC is not entertainingweighing AM/BM/CM/FM without driver and will continue to recommend weighing thoseclasses with driver.
Also, if this concept isapproved and becomes formalized as a proposed set of changes to the appropriaterule book sections, those changes would (where applicable) supersede otherpreviously-proposed changes that are presently under consideration.
Current and prospective DM andEM competitors are invited to let the MAC know their thoughts on these changesfrom a conceptual standpoint. A package of specific rule book wording changeproposals would be published for review at a later time.

December 2020 says this:
Modified Category
#28954 Proposal for changes to DM and EM

The MAC is seeking feedback regarding the following wording changes

to the rule book to update the DM/EM rules to help class participation by allowing some modern updates to the rules. Then, the changes outlined in July follow in detail with the exact proposed wording woven into the rule book.

[Jim Garry]

That December Fastrack request for feedback means no, or just a few, members responded. This is classic. Rules get proposed. A few people respond positively, another request goes out. One or two more responses trickle in. The new rule is approved. People finally find out about it in the next iteration of the rulebook and all hell breaks loose.

[ChristopherBernard]

Yeah, I know it's hard to process when news like this hits you out of the blue.

This may not help you feel better, but here are some thoughts.

I'm only guessing as to intent, but the change appears to actually be trying to include as many cars as possible with equality to keep the class alive.

Again, I don't know any details, but I'd wager a guess that this change was due to member request(s)

Regardless of origin, you could have argued against it.- IF you knew about the request for change. And perhaps you still can, if you contact the BoD.

Going forward, as I mentioned before, just Like any other car that is significantly lighter than the majority of other cars in DM, you will still have the option of leaving it at its current weight and running in BM.

This following story may not make you feel any better either, but it demonstrates that adding large amounts of weight is not always such a horrible thing.

I have a friend here in AZ who added 380# to his Lotus Elan in DP. He used it very effectively for CG and weight bias fore-aft and left-right tweaking. Then... he took ALL the weight out to run the car in DM and it was horrible handling. It was bicycling up on 2 wheels at Nationals and I believe he bent the front upright and maybe the rim when it crashed back down. He went from being competitive in DP (was leading the class for a while and finished fairly high a few Nationals ago) to bottom of the pack in DM in 2019.

When I ran my street Caterham with a passenger I could run equal times. Power to weight suffers but handling improved slightly. Mostly , it didn't spin its rear inside wheel as much. And that's with a Quaiffe! Might not be that bad with the "Solo Seven".
Appologies to the OP for hijacking his Prince Racecar thread.

[Josh R.]

?

PAX means at most regional autox events you'd get "beat" buy a Ford Fiesta.

[stevekh44]

When I ran my street Caterham with a passenger I could run equal times. Power to weight suffers but handling improved slightly. Mostly , it didn't spin its rear inside wheel as much. And that's with a Quaiffe! Might not be that bad with the "Solo Seven".
Appologies to the OP for hijacking his Prince Racecar thread.

Chris, no apologies necessary. I find the continuation of the thread to be quite interesting. There is no perfect class. And you can't expect to move from from one class to another and expect to be more competitive if you still have opportunities to improve both car and driver. In my case, I can improve both. I'm adding auto-x valved Penske's, moving to Avon tires, tuning my aero, adding data logging and plan on more testing. Hence the car came off the market. Thanks to Jim Garry, Chris Kunkel, Ryan at Zebulon, and my co-driver, Mark Seelbinder for the pep talk. I have a budget. When that is spent, I'll determine my satisfaction level in continuing to run the car and make a decision from there. I believe that is the case in any class. When I am no longer having fun, I'll stop.

[Jim Garry]

PAX means at most regional autox events you'd get "beat" buy a Ford Fiesta.

Off topic but here's my take on the PAX situation. PAX is determined mostly by the results of the best driver in the best car at important events. The rule allowances in the Mod classes obviously make those cars more difficult and expensive to max out than cars in Street and Street Touring Category categories. Thus at regional events it is not common to find mod cars fighting for top PAX unless it is the home of a driver at the top of their class nationally.

Another problem with PAX is the issue of classes that use real race tires (note: people in classes that use 200 treadware street legal tires often refer to them as "race tires" to differentiate them from their everyday tires but really, we know these aren't race tires). In Solo, street tires do degrade over time but nothing compared to race tires. Thus, someone competing on a set of 10 event old street tires with 200 treadware might be giving away a little time over new tires, maybe not. But 10 event old race tires are at least a second off the pace if not more.

These two issues mean that except at important events like National Tours and the National Championship, it is unusual for Modified and Prepared Category classes to be in the running for top PAX.

Nevertheless I like using PAX to compare how I did at a regional when there aren't many mod cars around. I just don't take it too awful seriously.

[Lynn]

The last time I talked to Rick Ruth, he said he used the results from almost 2000 events each year. The PAX is not based on a limited number of events with the top drivers.

[Jim Garry]

Good to know that he uses a lot of events. I see that his statement for the 2020 pax states he uses about 500 events. I'm sure he doesn't use regionals or other small events. There would be no value there. He needs important events that attract quality drivers. The points I made above remain valid.

https://www.solotime.info/pax/rtp2020.html: This Index was developed by Rick Ruth and reflects study of results from well over 500 nationwide Solo events including, the Tire Rack^® Solo National Championships, National Tour, Alabama Region, Arkansas Region, Atlanta Region, Chicago Region, California Sports Car Club, Central Florida Region, Equipe Rapide (Florida & Texas), Great Lakes Solo Series, Hawaii Region, Houston Region, Midwest Divisional Series, Milwaukee Region, New England Region, Northwest Region, Northern New Jersey Region, Oregon Region, Philadelphia Region, Rocky Mountain Series, San Francisco Region, San Diego Region, South Jersey Region, St. Louis Region, Tri-State Sports Car Council, Texas Region, Washington DC Region, Wisconsin Autocrossers Inc., and many, many others.

[Lynn]

The statement about using 500 events has been on that website for years. Believe that "and many, many others." If Rick can get the results for any SCCA region event or clubs that use SCCA classing, he will use it.

[B17overhead]

It is certainly true that Mod cars ARE usually harder to setup and drive.
BUT, It is going to be like that for all Mod competitors in your class at Nationals- unless, of course, its a poorly attended class.

Bottomline is that PAX is actually quite useful to gauge your National competitiveness at a local event.

If you cannot consistently get into about the top 5-8 PAX spots locally where there are 5 to 8 top drivers (current or recent former National Champs or runner-ups REGARDLESS of class) out of 80 or so total entrants at an event, then you probably won't fare well going to Nebraska for the National.

There will always be a few exceptions to this guideline, I reckon, but I don't see someone who never ever finishes above mid-pack PAX out of 80 at a local event doing very well at Nationals.

[Jim Garry]

The statement about using 500 events has been on that website for years. Believe that "and many, many others." If Rick can get the results for any SCCA region event or clubs that use SCCA classing, he will use it.

Fine. But if he's using regional events like some of the ones I attend, then the entire system is flawed. Therefore, it is highly unlikely that he is using those small events. So he may look at every event he can find, but he doesn't use them all in making his final decision on a factor.

[Jim Garry]

It is certainly true that Mod cars ARE usually harder to setup and drive.
BUT, It is going to be like that for all Mod competitors in your class at Nationals- unless, of course, its a poorly attended class.

Bottomline is that PAX is actually quite useful to gauge your National competitiveness at a local event.

If you cannot consistently get into about the top 5-8 PAX spots locally where there are 5 to 8 top drivers (current or recent former National Champs or runner-ups REGARDLESS of class) out of 80 or so total entrants at an event, then you probably won't fare well going to Nebraska for the National.

There will always be a few exceptions to this guideline, I reckon, but I don't see someone who never ever finishes above mid-pack PAX out of 80 at a local event doing very well at Nationals.

And that's not what I said.

[B17overhead]

And that's not what I said.

My post was not in respose to anything you said, Jim.
I was merely to try to inform those who may think they have no chance at all with a Mod car at a high PAX standing- possibly Josh, who mentioned Ford Fiestas!

[Josh R.]

My post was not in respose to anything you said, Jim.
I was merely to try to inform those who may think they have no chance at all with a Mod car at a high PAX standing- possibly Josh, who mentioned Ford Fiestas!

I'm just poking fun at PAX. But in my opinion, there's almost always a street class car with a soft PAX that is the overdog unless you have a REALLY fast Mod car OR a really fast Nats/Tour-caliber course. But I'm not a serious autoxer and haven't been since 2013-ish. I did go to one autocross this year and drove the 2019 HS National champion's FiST and managed to finish just inside the top 10 in PAX.

[B17overhead]

I'm just poking fun at PAX. But in my opinion, there's almost always a street class car with a soft PAX that is the overdog unless you have a REALLY fast Mod car OR a really fast Nats/Tour-caliber course. But I'm not a serious autoxer and haven't been since 2013-ish. I did go to one autocross this year and drove the 2019 HS National champion's FiST and managed to finish just inside the top 10 in PAX.

You are abslutely correct, Josh, especially since there are so many classes now, there usually are some easier PAX factors that make the system less than perfect. However, the really soft ones often get corrected within a few years.

[CM/FFdriver]

Really The hardest Pax to beat at this point is ESP, HS, STR, DM, AS in that order From softest too soft but I look at ESP as a goal and if I'm 1.000 behind them at any event (crow's) and then go to the next event and be .700 behind I find that a win and if I go to the next event and I behind again I may look at course design but go home and look at data to see if I lost something, This is just example of course but it is what I look at.

B17overhead; I tell people this all the time at our local events all the time.

Quote: Bottomline is that PAX is actually quite useful to gauge your National competitiveness at a local event.

If you cannot consistently get into about the top 5-8 PAX spots locally where there are 5 to 8 top drivers (current or recent former National Champs or runner-ups REGARDLESS of class) out of 80 or so total entrants at an event, then you probably won't fare well going to Nebraska for the National.

Ben

[Jim Garry]

It is probably preferable to look at time behind the leader rather than position on the factor. At a large event with a lot of current and past national champions like a New England Region event you can finish 20th and actually have had a good day while at one of my local events I've finished 4th but been over 2 seconds behind the leader.

[B17overhead]

It is probably preferable to look at time behind the leader rather than position on the factor. At a large event with a lot of current and past national champions like a New England Region event you can finish 20th and actually have had a good day while at one of my local events I've finished 4th but been over 2 seconds behind the leader.

Now that you mention placing and how it can be deceiving in 2 different ways, Jim, I thought some more about this.

% top PAX is probably more meaningful after the event to gauge your level of National competitiveness and/or progress.
That number eliminates the course length as well as hopefully at least some of the level of competition factor.
Here in AZ Region, it is all integer, no decimal point, on a 0 to 1000 scale.

Example of course length effect: At one event where my car was running good, but not great, I wuz 1.8 sec faster than the DMod Multiple National Champ on a long, but very fast 29 sec course (for me).
He was still beating me for PAX on the 29 sec course by at least several tenths, but it would have been a LOT worse if it was still only 1.8 s ahead on a 54 s course!

If u are lucky, there is a PAX affectiondo at the event who tracks all the fast PAX guys and converts real time with his pocket calculator.

[CM/FFdriver]

He was still beating me for PAX on the 29 sec course by at least several tenths, but it would have been a LOT worse if it was still only 1.8 s ahead on a 54 s course!

If u are lucky, there is a PAX affectiondo at the event who tracks all the fast PAX guys and converts real time with his pocket calculator.

We have a very fast DM guy Steven Goldine here in the bay area and him and I battle it out in PAX all the time, He gets me all the time but just. BM gets me by 3.250 at every event and I just can't get closer IJPMO.

Ben

[CM/FFdriver]

Nevertheless I like using PAX to compare how I did at a regional when there aren't many mod cars around. I just don't take it too awful seriously.

Jim,

This is what I do to a more or less but I run at all events with a lot of National Champions, AAS ( American Auto Cross Series) Sac. SCCA, SFR SCCA, and work very hard to Pax in the Top 5.

The Classes I battle with are XP, DM, EM, STX, STU, STR, DS, HS, AS and ESP All the drivers in these classes are National's Champions so if I let my guard down I will Pax 11 or worse, So I put a lot of pressure to Pax in the top 5 or better, it's like having 11 CM competitors at every event. DS has to beat me by 5.000 sec and DM has to beat by .200 sec and the driver for the DM car is great driver, he will beat me 7 out of 10 events but sometimes only by .020 it's some great fun.

You should have seen what I have done to my CM car in the off season, I will be ready !!

Ben