Yet ANOTHER “What Izzit?”

[Rex B]

I’m looking at this roller. Texas Region roll hoop number. 032-514

what is it, who raced it?

What does a club Vee engine cost these days?

[problemchild]

That's a Citation or Citation clone, and could be a very good and competitive car today, certainly better than 99% of the "Whatizzzits?"

[fvracerone1]

If in truth this has a Noble motor running, and a Lybarger prepped trans, it will be competetive. Is it running? Looks like it's been sitting as grass grown around tires and paint faded. What are theyasking?

[FVRacer21]

I don’t leave my lawnmower out in the weather.......

ChrisZ

but it could be a good buy.

if it has an engine - rebuilds are $1500 - 2000.

A “regional” engine is probably around $3000.

If in TX - contact Big Hammer Racing?

[Rex B]

No motor, no clutch. Don’t know much else, but I did get a name for the last owner that raced it.
yeah, it’s a project. Looks like it’s going to run $1000 to $1500 to buy it

[Rex B]

I If in TX - contact Big Hammer Racing?

i actually talked to Bill at COTA last week. I learned today that he once owned this Citation

[GrahamLoughead35]

No motor, no clutch. Don’t know much else, but I did get a name for the last owner that raced it.
yeah, it’s a project. Looks like it’s going to run $1000 to $1500 to buy it

It may be worth the rebuild if you can get it for 1,000. A race ready citation with motor is around $6,500-7,000

[pacratt]

The side-pods are short...which is EARLY Citation bodywork.
The tail is also early Citation with Naca-ducts...definitely NOT a later Brewer tail.
Have to see the rear portion of the frame to know if it's Citation or clone.
Most certainly a good buy for the right price, but DOES appear to need a "frame-up" rebuild.

Glenn

[Rex Burkheimer]

Here is the rear end. Also a shot inside the vacant engine bay

Yeah, it's a frame-off nuts and bolts rebuild for sure. But I have time, workspace, and funds for it.

[Rex Burkheimer]

What is involved in updating the bodywork?
Every piece needs work. Good time to do it.

[Rex Burkheimer]

The rollhoop number is on record at Houston Region.
It shows a Zink Z-188
Logbook issued to Bill Paris in Nov 1981

All the photos of Zinks show no bodywork like this.
Bill Griffith owned it. He said it was a Citation.

[FVRacer21]

It is possible that it is a Z18 converted to a 84 Citation. If so it might be the Rubenzer winning car as there were 2 prototypes made and I have the other one..... The last time I heard of the car it was in CO so the move to TX would not be too hard.

Although Steve L said that the worth of a vee is what you make out of it.

We would need more pictures with the body off.

This does have some updated body work - original had elephant ears scoops - some people like the short pods - don't worry about that. The tail has the NACA ducts so there should be some internal scoop parts - they might be missing but lots of options.

Some body filler and paint and you will have a good looking car.

Most people do a frame up rebuild so the work is not bad, and unlike a FF there are a lot less parts.

If it was in CT I would buy it - if just for the parts, but I think it can be a good car.

Note - figure you might need a fuel cell, fire system and belts.

By the time you are done you will know the car inside out.

ChrisZ

[Campbell Motorsport]

I agree with Greg that for a "field find" this one has more potential than most. However, like all of these cars, it can rapidly become a never ending money pit.

While the engine is the most expensive need, there are several others that could challenge your interest and budget. These other items include the fuel cell, fire system, seat belts, and shocks. It will likely need new hydraulic components (master cylinders & slave cylinder), brake linngs for sure, brake drums probably. The electrical system will need to be replaced and maybe all the instruments and battery. We assume that VW components are OK, but you could have bent spindles, turkey legs, or even a bad beam. Transmissions last a long time, but not forever, likewise starters. Plus, there may be some of the Citation specific components damaged or missing. The current exhaust could be used as could the body work, but if you start updating them you have $1K in an exhaust and $2K-$3K in body work. It can get scary real fast.

Before you write a check you need to evaluate your goals. If you want to get to the track and go racing for the least amount of money- keep looking. There are complete, competitive, very nice cars available for less money than you will spend on this car. If however your goal is a project that will take 200 hours and you are not concerned that you will potentially spend far more then the car will ever be worth, it will be a fun project.

Larry Campbell

[pacratt]

The rollhoop number is on record at Houston Region.
It shows a Zink Z-188
Logbook issued to Bill Paris in Nov 1981

All the photos of Zinks show no bodywork like this.
Bill Griffith owned it. He said it was a Citation.

Not "Z-188"...I'll bet anything it's "Z-18B"...which were the predecessors to the '84 Citation and many were converted.
Zink Z-18B's were the last vees from Ed Zink. The design modifications/updates were made by Steve Lathrop of Citation Engineering.
I believe all the newer style bodywork is still available...if you want to spend about $1500.
But the existing glass looks to be in pretty good shape & can be fixed/cleaned up fairly easily (as already mentioned).
I'd say it's a good find.

Glenn

[Rex Burkheimer]

Not "Z-188"...I'll bet anything it's "Z-18B"...which were the predecessors to the '84 Citation and many were converted.

Well that makes sense. It was probably hand-written, read by a guy my age without his reading glasses, and then passed on by someone yet older

That would explain why I could find no info on a Zink Z-188

Thanks for that!

BTW, I still don't have this thing bought. The owner has no idea what he has, but he's "pretty sure" it's worth a lot of money. And yet it's still sitting out in a field, with rain predicted for the next several days.

[FVRacer21]

I agree with Greg that for a "field find" this one has more potential than most. However, like all of these cars, it can rapidly become a never ending money pit.

While the engine is the most expensive need, there are several others that could challenge your interest and budget. These other items include the fuel cell, fire system, seat belts, and shocks. It will likely need new hydraulic components (master cylinders & slave cylinder), brake linngs for sure, brake drums probably. The electrical system will need to be replaced and maybe all the instruments and battery. We assume that VW components are OK, but you could have bent spindles, turkey legs, or even a bad beam. Transmissions last a long time, but not forever, likewise starters. Plus, there may be some of the Citation specific components damaged or missing. The current exhaust could be used as could the body work, but if you start updating them you have $1K in an exhaust and $2K-$3K in body work. It can get scary real fast.

Before you write a check you need to evaluate your goals. If you want to get to the track and go racing for the least amount of money- keep looking. There are complete, competitive, very nice cars available for less money than you will spend on this car. If however your goal is a project that will take 200 hours and you are not concerned that you will potentially spend far more then the car will ever be worth, it will be a fun project.

Larry Campbell

Larry is right about what it could cost, but just as an alternative -

Find out when the car was last run and get the log book.

Then decide what your goal is - if it is to run Majors, good ready to run cars will pop up over the winter.

If your goal is to build a car and run it in Regionals, track days etc, then you can get buy with stock brake shoes and inexpensive shocks (good ones come up in the want ads on Apex Speed). There is a good chance that any Vee you buy will need new belts - you can have the ones in the car rewebbed in most cases for under $100.

The fuel cell might be the most expensive - most seem to go to Harmon in CA but many swear by Eagle which I think is in MI.

If the car was not crashed, then the front end will probably be as good as it came off the track - just a cleaning and greasing - most likely if it had run in the last 10 years it has the offset bushings - just make sure to have the spindles crack tested!

Transmissions can last forever with good maintenance, but if you can get any history that might calm you fears - Bill @ Big Hammer should be able to help in that area.

Yes - the hydraulics will all have to be gone through and you might replace the master cylinders just to be on the safe side. The wheel cylinders can be rebuild for cheap, but new cylinders are not that expensive.

Even without a top rated exhaust the car will probably be faster that you the first season.

We have had two racers in the NE rescue "orphans" like this. And both cars ended up being competitive, even front running cars.

"you will potentially spend far more then the car will ever be worth" . Larry - this is racing - did we ever spend less than he car is worth?

Speaking of budgets - keep in mind the cost of the car is only part of the cost of racing - there is the trailer, travel expenses, tools, driver safety equipment, cost of schools and track or race days (some racers might be surprised about the cost of street car "track" days - they are usually MORE than our entry fees....and you do have to leave money for crash and incidental maintenance - so plan your spending accordingly - better to have a long term goal than rush to get to the track.

Formula Vee is still the least expensive of the formula classes when all is taken into consideration.

ChrisZ

[FVRacer21]

Well that makes sense. It was probably hand-written, read by a guy my age without his reading glasses, and then passed on by someone yet older

That would explain why I could find no info on a Zink Z-188

Thanks for that!

BTW, I still don't have this thing bought. The owner has no idea what he has, but he's "pretty sure" it's worth a lot of money. And yet it's still sitting out in a field, with rain predicted for the next several days.

Rex,

The shame is that race cars are basically a group of throw away components. I looked at a barn find FC car years ago - I figured it would take $15K to bring it up basically to a $14K car, but I offered the guy $5K as it was probably worth that in parts.

If the car was sitting in a garage with a good fuel cell and decent belts and fire system, brakes not rusted and hydraulic system in good condition, but without a engine, body work fair - in other words - it just rolled off the track and the motor was pulled - it might be worth $3K (Ironic as I bought the exact setup from Butch Deer in 1992 for 6K - what a different world we are in....) so $1K - 1.5K is what is is worth today at max - I just hate to see any race car treated like that.

Vintage cars from the 60's - well - FV still are not Lotuses or Coopers...

If it was in the NE and sat out exposed like that - after 5 years I would look seriously at the frame for rust or water damage, but in TX?

ChrisZ

PS - Any spares to sweeten the deal?

[Rex Burkheimer]

Larry and Chris

Lots of good info here, thanks for that. I have raced, had two FC cars, still have all my safety gear, a nice shop with all the tools I ever wanted. I've been restoring machine tools so I can deal with rust,.

The only spare in sight is a nosecone.

I know what I'm getting into, as confirmed by your posts. I'm retired, looking for a project. Wanted to go vintage but this thing turned up and intrigued me.

At any rate I'm about to hook up the trailer and go after it.
Thanks much for all the good insight. I'm sure I'll be bugging you guys after I get this thing home an evaluate the scope of things.

Rex B, Fort Worth TX

[GrahamLoughead35]

It is possible that it is a Z18 converted to a 84 Citation. If so it might be the Rubenzer winning car as there were 2 prototypes made and I have the other one.
ChrisZ

If this is his winning car it would be a damn shame that the car has been sitting out and collecting dust. I hope it can get a good home

[Rex Burkheimer]

Scott's car was a Citation 85V, so probably not his.

Anyone have a photo of the car?

[FVRacer21]

Scott's car was a Citation 85V, so probably not his.

Anyone have a photo of the car?

at the June Sprints http://www.comicozzie.com/gallery2/v...4-133.jpg.html

ChrisZ

[Rex Burkheimer]

at the June Sprints http://www.comicozzie.com/gallery2/v...4-133.jpg.html

ChrisZ

Same bodywork, but no way to tell from that photo. Mine has no snorkle, but that could have been lost

[B Farnham]

The Rubenzer car is owned by the Holcomb family in Colorado.

Brian

[FVRacer21]

The Rubenzer car is owned by the Holcomb family in Colorado.

Brian

Brian,

Thanks - maybe we need a Citation registry....

I thought about that when the car had a TX log book number, but sometimes owners lose the log book and get a new number registered in a different region.

I don't know if Steve is in on this thread, but I wonder if Z-18B's were converted or just close enough that only the body work was changed. I kinda liked the Z-18 - had a more angular - Lotus 79 like body.

ChrisZ

[holcopa]

Yes, we still have the Rubenzer car and Nuby's Mysterian here if Colorado stored away nicely. We just replaced the fuel cell in the Mysterian. I've been busy with my kids sports. I hope to be out for a couple events this year and trying to get my oldest daughter out in the Citation.

Phil Holcomb