2019 Runoffs/HOT PULLS?

[Terry Abbott]

So just reading though the supp's i don't see anywhere (maybe i missed it) where or what will be happening during the entire event with regards to the need to remove a car that requires a Hot Pull, are we going to see Full course cautions, get the field bunched up , and then release the safety vehicles to said pick up?

As a lot of us know first hand this is what happened in the spring major and well didn't work out , short sessions, short races.

i know that this behavior will discourage a lot of folks from running.

Let it begin.................

[Amon]

So just reading though the supp's i don't see anywhere (maybe i missed it) where or what will be happening during the entire event with regards to the need to remove a car that requires a Hot Pull, are we going to see Full course cautions, get the field bunched up , and then release the safety vehicles to said pick up?

As a lot of us know first hand this is what happened in the spring major and well didn't work out , short sessions, short races.

i know that this behavior will discourage a lot of folks from running.

Let it begin.................

Nothing more frustrating than races ending under yellow which happened as you mentioned for the majority of the spring race weekend.


Mark

[John Nesbitt]

As of today, entrants should plan on no hot pulls, per VIR policy.

I expect that the Club is negotiating with the track about possible alternatives. The Club negotiates all sorts of policy tweaks with Runoffs tracks. One possibility might be Club- or Region-supplied EVs doing hot pulls, and track EVs (and ambulances, presumably) not. However, as of now, any changes from track EV policy are TBD.

[problemchild]

While one concern of using VIR supplied EV services is the customer's, sorry member's, quality of racing, of equal or more concern is response time to drivers in distress. Will there be a 5 minute delay, or so, to get all race cars under control (in pits with black flag, or behind pace car with FC yellow) before EV services are dispatched?

[Purple Frog]

I remember the good ol' days of the Pro Series when VIR did hot-pulls. It was so nice to not have 10 or 15 minutes of safety car laps. I also remember one time when Rand got tired of waiting for safety to arrive at the scene, so he vaulted the fence and when to the driver's aid.

[John Nesbitt]

I remember the good ol' days of the Pro Series when VIR did hot-pulls. It was so nice to not have 10 or 15 minutes of safety car laps. I also remember one time when Rand got tired of waiting for safety to arrive at the scene, so he vaulted the fence and when to the driver's aid.

I was that driver. I am sure that Rand got a ration from the track, but he earned my undying gratitude.

[Michael Rand]

Yes I did in fact get , as John says, "a ration form the track". I was threatened with expulsion in fact !
Further to Mike Eakins post about Hot Pulls vs lengthy FCY and races ending under yellow, my fellow racers of a certain age also well remember for years and years they would cover the stricken car with a local yellow for a couple of laps then pull it expecting all drivers had seen the car in question and leaving it to the intelligence of the racers to NOT HIT THAT CAR, but keep the race going.
Alternatively the corner workers were allowed, indeed even encouraged, to push the car in question to a safe location.
Sadly those concepts seem to have disappeared almost entirely.
Before I get burned by people saying I am not safety conscious I want to say for the record, when corner workers are in a position to possibly be hit by spinning car, like attending to a driver in distress or a car upside down or burning, I fully agree with FCY.
Given many drivers lack of situational awareness and true understanding of the yellow flag rules it becomes imperative on the stewards to punish those who put others in danger.
That is the sermon for Tuesday.....

[kea]

Further to Mike Eakins post about Hot Pulls vs lengthy FCY and races ending under yellow, my fellow racers of a certain age also well remember for years and years they would cover the stricken car with a local yellow for a couple of laps then pull it expecting all drivers had seen the car in question and leaving it to the intelligence of the racers to NOT HIT THAT CAR, but keep the race going.
Alternatively the corner workers were allowed, indeed even encouraged, to push the car in question to a safe location.
Sadly those concepts seem to have disappeared almost entirely.
.

I remember Corner Workers bragging that they were the only persons at a race who could get close enough to the action that they could put their toes up alongside the track during a race. From 1971 through 1988 (SCCA, CASC, and others), I don't think I ever did laps behind a pace car for FCY.
Anyone know of when this practice started ?

[Amon]

As of today, entrants should plan on no hot pulls, per VIR policy.

I expect that the Club is negotiating with the track about possible alternatives. The Club negotiates all sorts of policy tweaks with Runoffs tracks. One possibility might be Club- or Region-supplied EVs doing hot pulls, and track EVs (and ambulances, presumably) not. However, as of now, any changes from track EV policy are TBD.

John,

I'm surprised the SCCA didn't negotiate with the track prior to agreeing to hold the Runoff's at VIR as the horse is out of
the barn at this point and they have less leverage at this time.

Mark

[Bob Wright]

The tracks all have different specific protocol for how to handle disabled cars. VIR, for instance, will not dispatch EV until the field is "under control". That means either in the pits under BFA, or completely gathered behind the pace car under FCY. Same for WGI. For a 'real' emergency- car on fire with driver in it, or upside down, race control has to go to red flag and stop all cars before anything can happen. I suspect there is a bit of wiggle room in the actual timing of EV dispatch, but that call is usually discretion of the track dispatcher, not the stewards.

Watkins Glen will not allow corner workers over the guard rail for any reason, nor will COTA or, I believe, MO anymore. At the MO FRP race a corner worker handed a driver a fire extinguisher so he could put his car out, but did not leave the flag station. I had the same thing happen at COTA- the corner worker handed me the extinguisher under the fence and I put out the fire before EV even got to me.

I think its a combination of insurance and a different mindset of the flagging cadre (more and more flaggers are paid track staff with minimal training).

[John Nesbitt]

As a steward, I have been involved, directly or indirectly, with a number of at-track fatalities. For drivers, the modal cause of death is heart attack, often in the paddock post-session. For flaggers, it is trauma suffered when responding to an incident and out from behind protection.

VIR’s policy did not spring fully formed out of the blue. It came in response to at least two, to my knowledge, incidents where racecars at speed collided with EVs.

As Mike observes, we see shockingly bad behavior under yellow flag conditions. Some of it is deliberate overdriving, and some is not seeing the flag. It is hard to say which is worse.

I do know that, at Summit Point, we started pulling licenses for unsafe driving under (especially) yellow flags. Behavior magically improved.

[Terry Abbott]

I'm ALL about the safety side of things and also agree about some drivers actions under FCC or waving Caution at said corners with that being said and Our SCCA couldn't come to an agreement by said tracks and or insurance these days then do a little thinking out of the box.......

Don't count FCY as laps, give them 2 strikes at it or even one cause its better than none. Yes i know theirs schedules to keep.
there is No good answer to the problem but not trying something in my eyes is even worse.

The Racers i believe would welcome some sort of "were trying this" instead of ignoring what WILL happen.

The Runoffs arnt just another race weekend. (well it is but you all know what i mean ...i think)

See everyone at VIR

[iamuwere]

Leaders can do so much to help with this process. The mixed wings and things group has been a disaster this year with FCY (Sebring Majors comes to mind). Leaders still hauling around at near full speed in p1/FA cars and it takes two or three laps to get the safety car gathing everything up. If the leader of the group simply goes to a very reasonable speed as soon as FCY comes out, the safety car can be ready to dispatch and let the field gather and maybe go green the next lap or thereafter. Flying along at race pace under FCY doesn't help anyone.

[Steve Demeter]

Agreed 110%. FCY means exactly that ... The entire course is under yellow. Proceed totally under control at greatly reduced speed. No one is going to pass you and if they do they will likely be penalized. But for some selfish reasons as referenced in the post immediately above some imbeciles insist on proceed in at near full speed under FCY much to the detriment of everyone else in terms of getting screwed out of racing laps cause it takes so long to get the field under control. FCY should be driven at cool off lap speed by the leaders and the same when everyone else catches them. IN other words use your heads and common sense.

[mmi16]

Agreed 110%. FCY means exactly that ... The entire course is under yellow. Proceed totally under control at greatly reduced speed. No one is going to pass you and if they do they will likely be penalized. But for some selfish reasons as referenced in the post immediately above some imbeciles insist on proceed in at near full speed under FCY much to the detriment of everyone else in terms of getting screwed out of racing laps cause it takes so long to get the field under control. FCY should be driven at cool off lap speed by the leaders and the same when everyone else catches them. IN other words use your heads and common sense.

One part of FCY with Pace Car being deployed - the rest of the field has to catch up to the cars behind the Pace Car - to do so, the following cars need to be driving to at least 95% of race pace until the entirety of the field comes into view - on a 3.27 mile track that can take a while.

[Steve Demeter]

Correct. I should have said that the LEADERS drive at cool off lap speed.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[John Walsh]

Runoffs fields, particularly at long tracks, present unique challenges.

Short sessions (practice & qualifying), races that are lap- & time-limited, and big tracks conspire with each other to burn down the clock.

We are employing several things to avoid long delays at the Runoffs at VIR.

Multiple Safety Cars for Qualifying, staged around the course and dispatched all together, to "control" the pack(s) faster, allowing clean-ups and pick-ups to begin quickly. Rather than Black Flag All, and then re-start (burning ~5min each), we plan to leave cars circulating (if they choose) to preserve some semblance of tire temps, and then quickly go back to green as soon as whatever cause the stoppage is stuffed behind a wall somewhere.

Same thing to quickly control the fields during races, initially simulating "Virtual Safety Car" so Emergency Services can arrive on scene and begin work. At some point in the clean-up, the 2-3 "packs" will be merged for a re-start. We are employing a totally separate Pace/Safety Car dispatcher in Race Control, to help manage the ballet.

In addition to track-contracted Emergency Services and Recovery vehicles, a number of SCCA Regions are providing their Emergency Services staff and vehicles, to be staged around the course for quick response.

From Qualifying on, don't be surprised to see Safety Cars, ES and Recovery vehicles parked in the North Paddock, South Paddock and at either end of the Patriot Course cross-overs.

At the 2019 Sonoma Runoffs, every race finished under Green Flag conditions, and the longest FCY was 3-ish laps. That's our goal - we want races to run & finish under Green Flag conditions. Can't promise anything...and we've got some practice and gaming to do before Qualifying starts - but SCCA and Regions are conspiring to make this all work.

JW
Clerk of the Course - SCCA Runoffs

[Terry Abbott]

Runoffs fields, particularly at long tracks, present unique challenges.

Short sessions (practice & qualifying), races that are lap- & time-limited, and big tracks conspire with each other to burn down the clock.

We are employing several things to avoid long delays at the Runoffs at VIR.

Multiple Safety Cars for Qualifying, staged around the course and dispatched all together, to "control" the pack(s) faster, allowing clean-ups and pick-ups to begin quickly. Rather than Black Flag All, and then re-start (burning ~5min each), we plan to leave cars circulating (if they choose) to preserve some semblance of tire temps, and then quickly go back to green as soon as whatever cause the stoppage is stuffed behind a wall somewhere.

Same thing to quickly control the fields during races, initially simulating "Virtual Safety Car" so Emergency Services can arrive on scene and begin work. At some point in the clean-up, the 2-3 "packs" will be merged for a re-start. We are employing a totally separate Pace/Safety Car dispatcher in Race Control, to help manage the ballet.

In addition to track-contracted Emergency Services and Recovery vehicles, a number of SCCA Regions are providing their Emergency Services staff and vehicles, to be staged around the course for quick response.

From Qualifying on, don't be surprised to see Safety Cars, ES and Recovery vehicles parked in the North Paddock, South Paddock and at either end of the Patriot Course cross-overs.

At the 2019 Sonoma Runoffs, every race finished under Green Flag conditions, and the longest FCY was 3-ish laps. That's our goal - we want races to run & finish under Green Flag conditions. Can't promise anything...and we've got some practice and gaming to do before Qualifying starts - but SCCA and Regions are conspiring to make this all work.

JW
Clerk of the Course - SCCA Runoffs

John,

Thank you for giving some insight to the situation

[swiftdrivr]

Surely not applicable to the runoffs this year, but with the technology available now, it seems entirely possible to make a display for even a formula car dash that would flash a yellow or red or "IN" [black wouldn't show up] at the driver [flag station visible or not]. The display could also show MPH, and rules could mandate that when activated by race control, everyone drops to "X" MPH. It could collect data to confirm compliance, or justify punishment if ignored. This would work for all but local yellows, and since those don't seem to happen anymore, flags would suffice in that instance. It seems safer, more fair, as everyone gets the same signal at the same time, and would lead to theoretically nearly instantaneous control of the field. Also, gains would not be canceled, and the field could be released "where they were" as opposed to artificially bunched. And everyone would be released at the same time, as opposed to the guys at the flag and those with radios getting the green several hundred yards before the back of the pack.

This could be the next "buy then rent" transponder scheme! Somebody could get rich, but it sounds do-able and worth it.

[mmi16]

Surely not applicable to the runoffs this year, but with the technology available now, it seems entirely possible to make a display for even a formula car dash that would flash a yellow or red or "IN" [black wouldn't show up] at the driver [flag station visible or not]. The display could also show MPH, and rules could mandate that when activated by race control, everyone drops to "X" MPH. It could collect data to confirm compliance, or justify punishment if ignored. This would work for all but local yellows, and since those don't seem to happen anymore, flags would suffice in that instance. It seems safer, more fair, as everyone gets the same signal at the same time, and would lead to theoretically nearly instantaneous control of the field. Also, gains would not be canceled, and the field could be released "where they were" as opposed to artificially bunched. And everyone would be released at the same time, as opposed to the guys at the flag and those with radios getting the green several hundred yards before the back of the pack.

This could be the next "buy then rent" transponder scheme! Somebody could get rich, but it sounds do-able and worth it.

Just because technology MAY permit it - doesn't mean that for amateur level racing (with serious cost constraints) that it should be done.

There is too much of the 'Well it's only $500 here and $1000 there!' thinking in the CLUB already. Since I started racing, arm restraints have been required, driver restraint systems are now end dated, Transponders are required, HANS have become required - chaching chaching chaching! I fully expect there will be other expenses coming down the line that will be required but will not improve the racing experience.

[Jamesbe]

Doesn't mean ppl will see or not ignore the light anyways. Last race I ran the leaders ignored a red flag! Or didn't see it they were so concentrated on racing. Yet I was in 4th 1 sec behind also focused still saw it...

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

[swiftdrivr]

Just because technology MAY permit it - doesn't mean that for amateur level racing (with serious cost constraints) that it should be done.

There is too much of the 'Well it's only $500 here and $1000 there!' thinking in the CLUB already. Since I started racing, arm restraints have been required, driver restraint systems are now end dated, Transponders are required, HANS have become required - chaching chaching chaching! I fully expect there will be other expenses coming down the line that will be required but will not improve the racing experience.

Not a fan of "buy then rent schemes," or of escalating costs, but we will pay with higher insurance costs, money spent for laps behind a pace car, or some tech to manage what will surely be a growing problem. The macho era of track cleanup is over, and workers will rightly demand protection. It seems to me that short of throttle control by race central [currently possible in F1, I'd guess], this is a reasonable approach, with multiple pluses [no loss of position, field released at the same time, ability to prove non-compliance and punish offenders appropriately, etc.] Sure, lights can be missed, just like a flag, but if you miss a flag turning in to Oaktree in a tight crowd, the flag is gone. However, if you don't see the lights as you turn in, they will still be there when your wheel is straight. I'd think the technology would be cheap, apply to every form of racing, and spread over all cars, costs would be manageable.

[Peter Olivola]

Not a fan of "buy then rent schemes," or of escalating costs, but we will pay with higher insurance costs, money spent for laps behind a pace car, or some tech to manage what will surely be a growing problem. The macho era of track cleanup is over, and workers will rightly demand protection. It seems to me that short of throttle control by race central [currently possible in F1, I'd guess], this is a reasonable approach, with multiple pluses [no loss of position, field released at the same time, ability to prove non-compliance and punish offenders appropriately, etc.] Sure, lights can be missed, just like a flag, but if you miss a flag turning in to Oaktree in a tight crowd, the flag is gone. However, if you don't see the lights as you turn in, they will still be there when your wheel is straight. I'd think the technology would be cheap, apply to every form of racing, and spread over all cars, costs would be manageable.

The current release of timing and scoring software and hardware provides duplex capability. It will require replacement of current transponders. Pro series are already using the technology. It won't be cheap.

[Dave Gomberg]

Getting back to the original question, the following article was posted yesterday:

https://www.scca.com/articles/201259...yGoj2M7Q5WKXYc

Dave

[J.D. King]

I was in attendance at the Spring VIR and have to say that the level of recovery needed improvement. I know it was not the Runoffs but I sure hope some knowledgeable EV volunteers will be teamed up with the "hired help" so car recovery can be expedited.
One case I observed was a stricken sports racer where the driver demanded his car be put on a tilt bed instead of being hooked. I find this to be completely unacceptable, this alone helped hold up the schedule by at least 20 minutes as the flatbed was attending to other recovery efforts.
At NJMP, our South Jersey Region EV volunteers have helped train the hired help in all aspects of vehicle recovery. While we do run into an occasional hiccup, we are not the Runoffs.
The Runoffs is supposed to be the best amateur racing in the world, in all aspects. Let's act like it.

On another note and a separate rant, but I'll put it here.......can we get back to Divisional Championships being the qualifying criteria that gets a driver invited to the world's greatest amateur racing event?
This "just turn a wheel" crap is outrageous. If we keep going down this road, the talented drivers will look elsewhere to spend their hard earned time and money.

[problemchild]

This "just turn a wheel" crap is outrageous. If we keep going down this road, the talented drivers will look elsewhere to spend their hard earned time and money.

Is this 1985? It is what it is. A festival of participation at destination race tracks. It is not what the Runoffs once were, but what is apparently of interest to a large number of members as the record entries indicate. Unfortunately, or perhaps fortunately, OW participants are not being satisfied as other groups appear to be, and SCCA seems unable to, or unwilling, to remedy that service. Hopefully our OW groups will find other people and other organizations to better serve us going forward. There are still a half dozen good SCCA events on the east coast each year, but the quality falls off pretty quick if you cannot make those. i agree that a divisional format may be better for regular racers as we seem to have oversubscription to ST events and undersubscription to everything else. However, the only thing that will change the Runoffs will be a change in format. I assume that it is too lucrative to SCCA for that to ever happen.

Whether SCCA can manage EV service at the Runoffs effectively is to be seen, but atleast they seem aware and trying.
That is not always the case with all SCCA matters.

[Matt Clark]

I don't mean to go too far OT here, but it is mildly relevant to getting everyone slowed down & gathered back up safely at all events, including the Runoffs.

make a display for even a formula car dash that would flash a yellow or red

I think if we went to these folks & talked about making a more basic unit for us, it could be very useful. The following but is a copy & paste I sent to people a while back.....

The 1st link seems to be the most flexible, but has a more complex unit. The 2nd one looks to be a smaller & a much simpler install for a formula car.
My thought is, if we could get Flagtronics to do just a small series of LEDs similar to the Audible Flagging unit (but with no sound), that should be even cheaper & compact for our use.Ideally, it would be cool to see like 4 bulbs, where the center 2 flash together for a local yellow, and then an alternating 2 x 2 flash back & forth for full course.

https://www.flagtronics.com/

https://audibleflagging.com/

[T Brzezicki]

Is this 1985? It is what it is.

Can we just go back to Road Atlanta?