Engine Studs

[Dan Q]

A company who we work with, is in the business of manufacturing threaded fasteners. Today they enjoy a significant business producing fasteners for all the major US racing series. They work in stainless, low alloy, H11, A-286, Waspaloy, Titanium, the multiphase alloys and a bit more.

With the advent of aluminum heads in FF1600, is there any interest amoung the racers to utilize studs? If so, we would like to hear from you so we could anticipate the market and go to production with a significant lot so as to help provide the best price to the FF community as a whole.

It may make sense to use studs (head, intake, exhaust, valve cover), even on cast steel heads. Shoot it may be interesting to also do the mains.

John
[email]johndadd@earthlink.net[/email]

[Dan Q]

Been there, done that. Seems like the actual user will be more important than the engine builder. From an engine builder's standpoint, one engine may be able to use studs, say exhaust or intake, and fit it's intended chassis. The same engine type, when fitted with similar studs, may not fit a different chassis. So the end user becomes the one to define the ultimate consumption of this type of item. This is what has prompted me to try this approach. (For sure it would have been easier to just work with the major engine builders.)

Also, some exhaust systems, like ours, curl over the head. Some valve cover studs might not be useable in such an application. Wierd, but true.

Some folks that I have spoken with favor studs with a full radius ball nose. Actually I favor these as well, but I would like to find out what the users would prefer.

John D.

[markD]

I think this is a great idea! Most other types of racing engines use studs versus bolts for heads and mains in professional series (they must know something). Not sure of all of the technical merits but I am told that you get a more consistent torque with studs versus bolts and the grip type (sheer vs. ?) is also improved. I would run it by the comp. board first to make sure they don't feel that it is "not in the spirit of the class or rules". This also may assist in improving the longevity of cranks. Sign me up.

[ThinkFast]

I'm sure a lot of people who read this are building there own motors but you might want to talk to the major engine builders like Ivey, etc. Check out an issue of the SSCA magazine Sportscar for more names.

[LarryWinkelman]

I've used studs for the head and mains for over ten years and get them from ARP along with their rod bolts.

[markD]

Radicalone, would you mind posting the part numbers from ARP that you used for your last rebuild? thanks

[Dan Q]

As long as you guys will be using my post to conduct business for the "other guys", at least tell me if the ARP studs have ball ends. While you're at it, do you know the material? While I have used ARP rod bolts in the past, and without failure, please know that the company we work with supplies the highest levels of racing here in the US. Their sister company in France supports F1, Endurance Racing as well as superbike. (Look at the podium there and you'll see their customers.) They know their stuff! In house testing includes tensile testing, fatigue testing, micro and macro exams, and the coolest torque tension machine this side of the pond.

[Ferris11]

Davy,

Will / can your company do custom / one off Titanium bolts??????

Curtis
vector FF

[Dan Q]

Curtis:

Yes they can, and have done so. You should call me at 203.294.1837 (or e-mail at [email]johndadd@earthlink.net[/email]) and we can discuss.

I will warn you up front, one-offs are expensive. This is why I was trying to determine the "market size" for the FF1600 head studs. As we know, studs are available today for the FF1600 heads. I was leaning towards a stainless steel fastener (perhaps A-286, or something similar) aimed at the aluminum head sub-market. Why spend all those bucks on one of those babies only to have the black oxide coated steel studs rust up? So with your ti parts, yes they make them, but unless we can link them to some significant runs, the price would probably prohibit scare you to death.

John D.

[LarryWinkelman]

I put the part numbers someplace safe so they wouldn't get lost and so far it is so safe that I haven't been able to find them.If I run across them I will post the numbers. They are not ball end and are made from 8740 heat treated to 190,000 PSI,centerless ground and the threads are rolled after heat treat. I don't think our engine builders feel they are necessary and probably aren't. As I recall they were cheaper than the stock bolts. The main reason I like them is with blocks being hard to come by and the fact that I sometimes have my head off 10 or 12 times a year I feel it is much easier on the block threads. I would not want ball ends on mine because we go to great lengths and expense to get rid of as much weight as possible on the car so extra unused material for me is a no no.

[markD]

Sorry Davey, didn't mean to step on any toes, just thought if the parts already exists to use them versus wait until new ones were developed. Your explanation of the intended use differentiates your needs from the others. BTW I would have no qualms using anything developed by ARP, they are a top notch fastening company.

[Dan Q]

Guys, no problem. 1/2 was in jest, 1/2 was stomping my chest. Not to worry.

Radicalone: Thanks for the material/KSI rating. I understand about 'excess weight' and for me the ball ends would only be used for intake and exhaust studs. For the mains and head studs, this would not be as important.

In the production of fasteners everyone who rolls threads does the rolling after heat treatment. To control the pitch diameter, major and minor diameters, a precise "pre-roll" diameter is produced by grinding. Trial and error soon dictates the norms for these characteristics.

Where the tricky stuff comes in, is in areas like the under head fillet. Here extreme car must be taken to roll the fillet. The impact of a good quality roll, has a huge impact on the fatigue life of a headed fastener. This can truely 'make it or break it'.

All this stuff is neat, but the bottom line is that for a FF1600 or FF2000 engine, the loads are so low, that rarely is anything needed over and above what is out there today.

Again my idea for FF1600 head studs was more centered on the new aluminum head market, and the possibility of using SST fasteners for that application.

Thanks for all your comments, and please keep them comming.

John D.