Looking for a beginner/starter Formula car - $5K budget

[OmahaMR]

Looking to get my son introduced into formula racing. He currently karts (4-stroke Briggs and 2-stroke IAME X30's).

VIR is our closest track. Have about a $5k budget for the car alone. We are open to cars for autocross or road racing, but would prefer road racing.

My son is similar build to myself (5'11", but I got about 40lbs on him at my weight of 195).

I am told F-V is a decent entry class, but the race quality would be lacking in comparison to his karting races (x30).

Open to options is about how id describe it.

[Daryl DeArman]

I am told F-V is a decent entry class, but the race quality would be lacking in comparison to his karting races (x30).

Open to options is about how id describe it.

Yes, you are correct.

If the goal is race quality on a budget, stick with karting.

If the goal is to move up to a formula car and race on full size tracks, a FV is the only thing that might fit into your budget. That would depend on how much you have to spend once the car is purchased and how much you intend on racing.

A $5000 FV is akin to a $1500 kart. They are out there, and you can race one, but you won't be winning any races with it. It's also likely to cost you just as much to race it (or more) annually than the car/kart purchase price.

What are you looking for that you aren't getting in karting?

[OmahaMR]

Yes, you are correct.

If the goal is race quality on a budget, stick with karting.

If the goal is to move up to a formula car and race on full size tracks, a FV is the only thing that might fit into your budget. That would depend on how much you have to spend once the car is purchased and how much you intend on racing.

A $5000 FV is akin to a $1500 kart. They are out there, and you can race one, but you won't be winning any races with it. It's also likely to cost you just as much to race it (or more) annually than the car/kart purchase price.

What are you looking for that you aren't getting in karting?

My son has the passion to get into road racing. Believe it or not, the boy is the one who has saved the money for the car and he eventually would like to get into GT2 or Formula Continental/Enterprise racing. Its not so much that he isnt getting fulfillment from karting, just wanting to get a taste of road racing.

We are not looking to buy a car that is going to go out and win every race....we just want something that will run well and give him an opportunity to develop. I dont want to be that entry that jumps from Karting to Formula Continental and tears up a bunch of good race cars.

[holmberg]

People here are probably getting sick of me posting this spreadsheet, but here are the purchase and operating costs for a bunch of racing classes (mostly purpose-built, but some converted production cars).

Yes, FV and FST (a modification from FV) are probably the only classes in your price range. Keep in mind that the prices listed here are for top-notch cars that could win a Majors race or place in the top five at the Run-offs. A mid-pack regional-race car would be less.

An old Club Formula Ford or an F5 (2-stroke or 600cc motorcycle engine) might also be worth considering.

Besides purchase cost, consider operational costs--tires, engine rebuilds, gearbox rebuilds, brake pads, fuel, etc. For example, with FV you'll spend $700 per weekend on these items (plus hotel, towing fuel, food, entry fees, etc.). (I should note though, that the FV class is talking about a longer lasting spec tire that should reduce the operational cost for those cars.) Plus the cost to repair the car after a incident. All of this can make the initial purchase cost look small. In the long run you may be better off with a car that had a higher purchase cost but lower operational costs. You'll have to do the math for yourself.

Be aware, the popularity of classes varies considerably between SCCA regions. So find the SCCA region's website for your tracks and search for their season points to see how many cars race a given class. Depending on where you live, you may find with a given class that there's either lots of cars to race with or very few. One region will have lots of FV's and another almost none. Sometimes the FV's race with other organizations in a given area, and so the SCCA numbers make it look like there aren't any, when in fact you just need to look at another organization. I know that's the situation with FV's here in northern California--they're not racing with the SCCA here, but there are in fact quite a few in the area.


Greg

[Lotus7]

I'm not trying to dampen your enthusiasm, and I don't know FV pricing, but there is nothing in FF or above for $5k that would be worth buying, let alone risking your son's life in.
You'll need to get close to triple that for a decent FF, or conversely, try some days in Lucas Oil school to see how he likes it. Yes, it's 'lost money', but better that than buying a black hole car that he never gets any quality time in. Ymmv.

[Keith Robinson]

With or without that budget there is nothing better than a FV to get the first years experience!
I'm an instructor/Formula Ford racer at my local track and in the last 20 years I've coached a lot of novices.
To learn 'the lines' and learn how to keep up momentum in a racecar there is nothing better than a Formula Vee.
Example;
One of our young FV racers stepped out of his FV into a Formula Ford a couple of years ago. Because of his knowledge gained with the FV he was within half a second of the Formula Ford lap record within twenty laps !!

Your son might initially be disappointed with the speed of a FV but he will soon learn how skillful you need to be to be fast in one!

Looking to get my son introduced into formula racing. He currently karts (4-stroke Briggs and 2-stroke IAME X30's).

VIR is our closest track. Have about a $5k budget for the car alone. We are open to cars for autocross or road racing, but would prefer road racing.

My son is similar build to myself (5'11", but I got about 40lbs on him at my weight of 195).

I am told F-V is a decent entry class, but the race quality would be lacking in comparison to his karting races (x30).

Open to options is about how id describe it.

[Westroc]

With or without that budget there is nothing better than a FV to get the first years experience!
I'm an instructor/Formula Ford racer at my local track and in the last 20 years I've coached a lot of novices.
To learn 'the lines' and learn how to keep up momentum in a racecar there is nothing better than a Formula Vee.
Example;
One of our young FV racers stepped out of his FV into a Formula Ford a couple of years ago. Because of his knowledge gained with the FV he was within half a second of the Formula Ford lap record within twenty laps !!

Your son might initially be disappointed with the speed of a FV but he will soon learn how skillful you need to be to be fast in one!

Well I have taken 3 kids directly from karts to FC and none of them tore up the cars. Engines different story- lost 2 both on shifting. Which is why I had telltale tachs. Oh yes. All 3 were immature- in different ways. One of the dad's was the kids worst asset. Probably met the type. IF you are karting just club events then get better first. Here do this. Add 30lbs to the X30 and tell him you expect him to win. Believe me he will get better.It will also give you a preview on if he can adapt before you plunk down.

[Daryl DeArman]

To learn 'the lines' and learn how to keep up momentum in a race car there is nothing better than a Formula Vee.

Except an underpowered single speed kart

Your son might initially be disappointed with the speed of a FV but he will soon learn how skillful you need to be to be fast in one!

If he's fast in a kart, there is nothing (driving-wise) that FV is going to teach him that he doesn't already know, save the occasional shift from 3rd to 4th or 4th to 3rd gear.

IF GT2 is also a goal, karts to SM to GT2 might just be the wiser path to take than karts to FV to FC/FE.

[Keith Robinson]

Well I have taken 3 kids directly from karts to FC and none of them tore up the cars. Engines different story- lost 2 both on shifting. Which is why I had telltale tachs. Oh yes. All 3 were immature- in different ways. One of the dad's was the kids worst asset. Probably met the type. IF you are karting just club events then get better first. Here do this. Add 30lbs to the X30 and tell him you expect him to win. Believe me he will get better.It will also give you a preview on if he can adapt before you plunk down.

An FC + one engine, tough to get within the original post $5000 budget!!!

[B Farnham]

For 5K FV is the only class at that price point. The good thing is most say its best to start with a momentum class before you add downforce.

The other big advantage with FV is you can get a car from the mid 80's that may not be competitive right away but you can continue to build it up and eventually it will become competitive.

It's a great way to progress from track days to wheel to wheel racing. There isn't another class where you can buy a car from the 80's or 90's and make it competitive without major chassis revisions.

Brian

[jrh3]

Looking to get my son introduced into formula racing. He currently karts (4-stroke Briggs and 2-stroke IAME X30's).

VIR is our closest track. Have about a $5k budget for the car alone. We are open to cars for autocross or road racing, but would prefer road racing.

My son is similar build to myself (5'11", but I got about 40lbs on him at my weight of 195).

I am told F-V is a decent entry class, but the race quality would be lacking in comparison to his karting races (x30).

Open to options is about how id describe it.

djones Banshee is a bargain.
unfortunate part is it needs assembly , does not really have a class in most areas and not located near you.
Might be a good father son project while you continue kart racing

[HB280ZT]

Hopefully welcome to the FV community. There is a Regional race at VIR on March 9-10 so go out and check things out. It is a good place to meet people, check out cars and get a better idea of what's up in SCCA road racing. Ask lots of questions we do no bite. The may even let you sit in there cars if you ask. Here is a good place to look at events in the South East division (SEDiv):

http://sedivracing.com/road-racing/

Keep checking out the classified here and you may find something. Another person to talk to in the SEDiv is Fred Clark at Clark Racing and Caracal Cars in Jacksonville, FL. http://www.caracalcars.com/index.htm

Good luck and racing a FV is a blast and it takes some skill to race one at its limit.

Harry
FV#77 CFR

[Matt Clark]

I am told F-V is a decent entry class, but the race quality would be lacking in comparison to his karting races (x30).

what do you mean by the quality wold be lacking? generally, FV is one of the best races of the weekends.

djones Banshee is a bargain.
unfortunate part is it needs assembly , does not really have a class in most areas and not located near you.
Might be a good father son project while you continue kart racing

unfortunately, I would have to disagree that it would be a good project for them on a budget.
like you said, it has no class & would really just be a waste of money for them. they should just find an inexpensive FV & start with that.

For 5K FV is the only class at that price point.

The other big advantage with FV is you can get a car from the mid 80's that may not be competitive right away but you can continue to build it up and eventually it will become competitive.

exactly this.



How much travel would you be looking to do? If you are ok with some longer drive 5-6 times a year, FV Challenge Cup sounds like the ideal place for you guys to start out. Lots of other cars & guys to help you learn, and the costs are further reduced than even a normal FV. Because of the aero of their tires, even the older cars with less developed aero can be competitive.

also, if you guys are on FaceBook, join these 3 groups... you see many cars shared there for sale that don't always get posted here.
Formula Vee USA https://www.facebook.com/groups/formulaveeracingusa/
Challenge Cup & F1200 https://www.facebook.com/groups/344736898869/
Challenge Cup Series https://www.facebook.com/groups/155486181454972/

[Keith Robinson]

Watch Matt's video from Mosport Park (one of the world's most famous tracks).
This will give you an idea of how FV teaches you how to keep momentum and how one mistake can cost you!!
(Great video Matt, nice driving (for most of the race!!).

2018-05-13; FV Challenge Cup Series; Canadian Tire Motorsports Park (Mosport) Sunday Race 2

Looking to get my son introduced into formula racing. He currently karts (4-stroke Briggs and 2-stroke IAME X30's).

VIR is our closest track. Have about a $5k budget for the car alone. We are open to cars for autocross or road racing, but would prefer road racing.

My son is similar build to myself (5'11", but I got about 40lbs on him at my weight of 195).

I am told F-V is a decent entry class, but the race quality would be lacking in comparison to his karting races (x30).

Open to options is about how id describe it.

[Matt Clark]

thanks, Keith... although I think you picked one of my least favorite vids I have posted. lol
that whole weekend was a nightmare for me. I didn't have my good engine, the car had a weird snap oversteer I was afraid of (was later shown that my rear tires were bouncing completely off the ground) & I just couldn't find my rhythm on top of all that.

but yea, Mosport definitely is one of those tracks that really teaches you drafting & momentum... especially with the big radial tires. and the group of F1200 & FVCC drivers are absolutely stellar to race with.

[Daryl DeArman]

what do you mean by the quality wold be lacking? generally, FV is one of the best races of the weekends.

Relative to karting. The kid races X30 class. The bigger kart race is the SuperNats, they had 70 karts in the X30 class. The top 22 qualifying times were within 1/2 second, all the way to 60th place before you dropped a second.

Compare to FV RunOffs: 29 cars, only top 2 covered by 1/2 second and 5th place is already down a second.

You could compare % of pole for a "how much you missed the bullseye" and you would be 5th place in FV was off pole by a larger % than 22nd in the kart. Top 10 in FV were within the same window (%) as top 60 in kart.

Yes, FV usually puts on one of the better races, but the level and depth of competition is nowhere near what you get at the larger karting events. Fact is, a number of those kids racing karts are your future stars. Back 20 years ago some kid shows up to race in SoCal and who's in his class? Buddy Rice (Indy 500 winner), Kevin Harvick (Daytona 500 Winner and Winston Cup Champion), Patrick Long (Two time 24hr. LeMans winner, Three-Time ALMS Champion) and Joey Hand (2 time Daytona 24hr winner, 2 time LeMans Winner). You cut your teeth battling with that type of competition week-in and week-out and SCCA Club racing has got to fulfill you in other ways.

[Keith Robinson]

Relative to karting. The kid races X30 class. The bigger kart race is the SuperNats, they had 70 karts in the X30 class. The top 22 qualifying times were within 1/2 second, all the way to 60th place before you dropped a second.

Compare to FV RunOffs: 29 cars, only top 2 covered by 1/2 second and 5th place is already down a second.

You could compare % of pole for a "how much you missed the bullseye" and you would be 5th place in FV was off pole by a larger % than 22nd in the kart. Top 10 in FV were within the same window (%) as top 60 in kart.

Yes, FV usually puts on one of the better races, but the level and depth of competition is nowhere near what you get at the larger karting events. Fact is, a number of those kids racing karts are your future stars. Back 20 years ago some kid shows up to race in SoCal and who's in his class? Buddy Rice (Indy 500 winner), Kevin Harvick (Daytona 500 Winner and Winston Cup Champion), Patrick Long (Two time 24hr. LeMans winner, Three-Time ALMS Champion) and Joey Hand (2 time Daytona 24hr winner, 2 time LeMans Winner). You cut your teeth battling with that type of competition week-in and week-out and SCCA Club racing has got to fulfill you in other ways.

None of this was in dispute; after all if Fernando Alonso says karting is the purest form of racing, I believe him!
The original post was; what is the best entry level road racing with a $5000 budget?
I believe the answer is still FV.
I don't think any of the people you mentioned had a $5000 budget for their karts!! (their racing suits and helmets maybe).

[Daryl DeArman]

None of this was in dispute.

It appears the dad had been forewarned that the racing quality isn't going to be what they were accustomed.

Matt asked "What do you mean the quality would be lacking?"

If the kid is coming from a competitive karting program (X30 class certainly can be), the experience he gets racing in SCCA Club racing will be lacking in comparison.

[problemchild]

My son has the passion to get into road racing.

That passion was what drove most of us to get into this sport. Many of us who have been involved for many years, have lost that passion, and try to apply logic, financial responsibility, and common sense to the process ..... which probably means we are no longer behind the wheel ourselves. So despite this being a car racing forum, we offer a lot of negativity about entry level participation in an inexpensive starter car. In your area, there are a group of old-timers who are still very active in FV and would be delighted to help you get involved. Connect with them, visit some races, and don't let anyone dissuade you from following your passion. Kart racing will still be there in a few years, if you decide you don't like racing cars.

I must offer the disclaimer, that $7K cars that are being raced now, usually turn out to be better value than $3500 cars that have not been raced for a decade. The cheaper car is like a payment plan. You will likely pay more in the end, but you pay at your own pace. It is a buyer's market so shop wisely and find the best value package. IMO, buying a car with an engine from a known builder, with serviceable time remaining, is a huge plus in determining value.

Good luck!

[Daryl DeArman]

That passion was what drove most of us to get into this sport. Many of us who have been involved for many years, have lost that passion, and try to apply logic, financial responsibility, and common sense to the process ..... which probably means we are no longer behind the wheel ourselves. So despite this being a car racing forum, we offer a lot of negativity about entry level participation in an inexpensive starter car. In your area, there are a group of old-timers who are still very active in FV and would be delighted to help you get involved. Connect with them, visit some races, and don't let anyone dissuade you from following your passion. Kart racing will still be there in a few years, if you decide you don't like racing cars.

I must offer the disclaimer, that $7K cars that are being raced now, usually turn out to be better value than $3500 cars that have not been raced for a decade. The cheaper car is like a payment plan. You will likely pay more in the end, but you pay at your own pace. It is a buyer's market so shop wisely and find the best value package. IMO, buying a car with an engine from a known builder, with serviceable time remaining, is a huge plus in determining value.

Good luck!

A little too close to home, ha ha ha. But spot on.

[Thomas Wirtz]

Not mine, found this this morning. Could be a nice father / son project.


https://charlotte.craigslist.org/cto...784919864.html

[B Farnham]

Not mine, found this this morning. Could be a nice father / son project.

https://charlotte.craigslist.org/cto...784919864.html

Unfortunately that's a vintage car with what appears to be the wrong engine and trans for FV.

Greg is 100% right, buy a car that is ready to race. Itll be cheaper in the long run and far less headaches.

[Keith Robinson]

This is good advice; projects often never get to the track! (and that ones not legal, as already mentioned).

Greg is 100% right, buy a car that is ready to race. Itll be cheaper in the long run and far less headaches.[/QUOTE]

[Matt Clark]

Relative to karting. The kid races X30 class. The bigger kart race is the SuperNats, they had 70 karts in the X30 class. The top 22 qualifying times were within 1/2 second, all the way to 60th place before you dropped a second.

Compare to FV RunOffs: 29 cars, only top 2 covered by 1/2 second and 5th place is already down a second.

You could compare % of pole for a "how much you missed the bullseye" and you would be 5th place in FV was off pole by a larger % than 22nd in the kart. Top 10 in FV were within the same window (%) as top 60 in kart.

Yes, FV usually puts on one of the better races, but the level and depth of competition is nowhere near what you get at the larger karting events. Fact is, a number of those kids racing karts are your future stars. Back 20 years ago some kid shows up to race in SoCal and who's in his class? Buddy Rice (Indy 500 winner), Kevin Harvick (Daytona 500 Winner and Winston Cup Champion), Patrick Long (Two time 24hr. LeMans winner, Three-Time ALMS Champion) and Joey Hand (2 time Daytona 24hr winner, 2 time LeMans Winner). You cut your teeth battling with that type of competition week-in and week-out and SCCA Club racing has got to fulfill you in other ways.

Gotcha.
And I see what you are saying completely... but to be fair, the Runoffs has a huge spending difference among the field. And lets not forget then, that ANY class in SCCA will have a much large difference in times compared to karts. FV would probably be about the smallest differences of any class.

At a Regional level, or within Challenge Cup, the FV grid spread is normally waaay less. Here is a qualifying sheet from our Summit Point event last year. The top 15 cars are 2.1 seconds apart.

[Daryl DeArman]

Gotcha.
And I see what you are saying completely... but to be fair, the Runoffs has a huge spending difference among the field. And lets not forget then, that ANY class in SCCA will have a much large difference in times compared to karts. FV would probably be about the smallest differences of any class.

I chose to compare top level SCCA FV with top level X30 karting. I also chose to utilize percentage instead of just seconds (1 second off on a 40 second lap is just as off as 3 seconds on a 2 minute lap)

The easier a car is to drive at 99% of it's maximum potential, the more folks that can afford top notch equipment for the class, the easier it is to tune, the closer the racing will be. It's the primary reason FV, SM and SRF all offer such close racing. I wasn't meaning to imply that FV racing sucks, simply stating that it's not likely that the original poster is going to find any racing within SCCA as competitive/quality that he can find in karting.

As absurd as it might sound there are several karters spending BIG money annually in pursuit of their dreams. Budgets approaching six figures certainly aren't the norm, but they aren't unheard of.

[LenFC11]

I chose to compare top level SCCA FV with top level X30 karting. I also chose to utilize percentage instead of just seconds (1 second off on a 40 second lap is just as off as 3 seconds on a 2 minute lap)

The easier a car is to drive at 99% of it's maximum potential, the more folks that can afford top notch equipment for the class, the easier it is to tune, the closer the racing will be. It's the primary reason FV, SM and SRF all offer such close racing. I wasn't meaning to imply that FV racing sucks, simply stating that it's not likely that the original poster is going to find any racing within SCCA as competitive/quality that he can find in karting.

As absurd as it might sound there are several karters spending BIG money annually in pursuit of their dreams. Budgets approaching six figures certainly aren't the norm, but they aren't unheard of.

All you said is well and good, but the likely hood they are running any type of national effort is slim considering their budget

I would think something more along the lines of a mid level local track budget is more likely... Possibly even a lower then average local track budget.

That said even at that level there is likely very strong competition with podiums hard to come by for a budget racer

Sounds to me like they are more in it for the fun and experience of racing and are now ready to explore real tracks and cars

[Daryl DeArman]

All you said is well and good, but the likely hood they are running any type of national effort is slim considering their budget

I would think something more along the lines of a mid level local track budget is more likely... Possibly even a lower then average local track budget.

That said even at that level there is likely very strong competition with podiums hard to come by for a budget racer

Sounds to me like they are more in it for the fun and experience of racing and are now ready to explore real tracks and cars

You are quite likely correct. The only reason I'm thinking otherwise is the OP stated this is his sons' money to buy the FV. Somebody that knows the family told dad that the quality of racing would be worse.

It's possible the kid is a pretty serious karter, parents may have been supporting his efforts for years and are now saying "done, we rode this is as far as we can, if you want to keep at it, it's on your own dime".

[Matt Clark]

I wasn't meaning to imply that FV racing sucks, simply stating that it's not likely that the original poster is going to find any racing within SCCA as competitive/quality that he can find in karting.

oh, no worries... I just threw that out there to make sure newer people didn't focus too much on our field spread at the Runoffs & get the wrong ideas about the class. Like you said, any racing in SCCA is going to be different than the top level of karting.

[djones]

Thanks for the plug but I recently turned over the Banshee to a young broke
want to be racer.
unless you have safety concerns I would suggest road racing karts.
you can pick up good used 125cc shifters with spares for way under 5k.
pretty cheap way to get on the full size road courses.

[OmahaMR]

A lot of good feedback for you all. A lot to digest as I read thru the posts.

Perhaps one thing I did not do very well at stating is the $5k budget. My son is really excited to be in a position to purchase his first race car and the $5k is his purchase budget. Given the karting experience we have, I would not be surprised if I were to find the $$$-dropped in a karting race weekend to even exceed the cost for a FV race weekend. Our X30's run a new set of tires each race weekend ($200/set), 2-stroke karts in general eat sprockets, 110-fuel, oil, etc. Its not uncommon to drop $500-$800 per race weekend just on the X30 karts alone. That said, I will be the good dad I am and support the cost to race on the weekends, but the initial cost for the car is on my son.

Additionally, we are not abandoning karting by any means. We love karting and will continue to race. I have a younger son who is doing well in karting and enjoys it thoroughly. We are simply looking for the best entry level class for transitioning from karts to road racing. A key point one of the fellow-karting racers who recently moved to car racing mentioned is the learning & breaking of karting habits is what has made the transition most challenging....basically he talked about the usage of mirrors to see traffic next-to and behind him. Not being able to turn your head over your shoulder to see whats behind you has been the biggest adjustment he has made....and while he says it doesnt sound like much, its not as easy as just doing it. Those transitional/developmental pieces is why we are initially looking at FV.

I have found in conversations with some of you that the best step is to attend the SCCA event at VIR in April to get a feel for what the SCCA is all about and talk with the members to understand the size and support of FV.

If there are things involved with FV that I am missing, please let me know. I am also trying to educate myself in the various classes of Formula cars between FV to FC. I see FF, F500, F1000, but I know nothing of these classes.

[TimH]

I have found in conversations with some of you that the best step is to attend the SCCA event at VIR in April to get a feel for what the SCCA is all about and talk with the members to understand the size and support of FV.

This.

I also think FV is exactly where he belongs for now. Much as I love FF....

[Matt Clark]

It is definitely drinking from a firehose to try & learn all the various formula car classes out there, but definitely get to the race & talk to as many folks as you can. Hopefully there is a good turnout since VIR is both a Northeast & Southeast combination event. It sounds like you are on the right path, though.

As a side anecdote about the challenges of transitioning to cars from karts... In Challenge Cup, we have a several 15-16-17 year old kids running with us now, fresh from & still doing karts. One of them said the biggest thing he had to get used to was the car unweighting over crests & it not meaning a crash. Mainly, he was dealing with this through turn 9 at Mid-Ohio.... It's been amusing to see them trying to get used to things the rest of us just take for granted, but they are picking it up quick.

[marshall9]

This:
https://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...631#post578631

[Farrout48]

Talk with Fred Clark. He usually has a handle on what FVs are available that have not been advertised yet. Plus, if there is information on FVs that he does not know, it will be a first. clarkfv@bellsouth.net

[stevent3]

I have a Vee to fit your budget. If you are still looking let me know and I will provide more detail.