Buying a Pro F1600?

[LastOfTheLateBrakers]

Hey everyone, I'm back. After a long period of thinking about where to take my racing career. I've made a decision. I'll be old enough for an SCCA Race License in 2020, and until then, I'll work hard to expand my karting CV. After I get my race license, I will participate in regional F1600 championships, to improve my racecraft and prepare for the SCCA Pro F1600 Championship Series. However, during this time, I'll be searching for a F1600. My parents have set me a budget of 10K for a car. I'm perfectly happy buying a car that I'll have to work on, and both my father and I are experienced in working on automobiles, and when my dad bought a RCR Formula Libre, we built that together. Is it possible to buy a F1600 for under 10K? I think the most likely car will be a early 90s Van Diemen. Are there others? Is this low budget even possible?

[Westroc]

Not to be negative but no it's not even close to doable. Stay in karts for awhile, I have a lot of experience with karts and karting kids. Taken 3 kids from karts to FC and they were OK. No big mishaps. If you are in Briggs you absolutely need to go Tag (or faster) and be at Skusa (or close) level to get enough racecraft for a guy like me or anybody I know to put you in a car. Without 2 stroke experience at the front I would have to ask a large damage deposit which makes it impossible. I would gladly speak to you off Apex. I currently have 2 F2000 cars for sale as well as 7 Tag karts and raced karts at the world level. You are young ad don't need to be in a hurry just don't give up. But buying a car at that price would not suit your end goal. Guys who converted a good car to the Honda engine paid considerable more than that just for the conversion alone and they already had the car.

[S Lathrop]

Take a serious look at FV. Many of the top drivers started in FV. There are certain driving skills that FV is the best class room to learn in. And with $10,000 you are in the ball part for a car than can become competitive.

I am giving this advise as a person who started driving in FVs and spent several decades as a race engineer in FA and Indy Lights. And I have done a bit of engineering in Indy cars. When you get to Indy or the ovals in Indy lights, your FV skills will be very important.

[LenFC11]

An FF for $10k or less will be a $20k car by the time it hits the track and still no chance of being competitive

A very minimal budget for f1600 pro series is $3k a weekend.. and that is doing everything yourself.

FV seems closer to your reality
Good luck..

[DanW]

The advice you are given is golden from the above three gents. Hone your skills in karting, work hard in learning racecraft and setup.

When the time is right for a car for you and your dad, start attending club races. FV is very strong in your area with lots of excellent competition. Talk with the drivers and crews. If you can be fast in a FV carrying the momentum, you can be fast in most any car.

Study hard in school, learn math and physics as much as you can get. Join the debate club and learn to speak and present yourself as a professional. If there is a Toastmasters club nearby, go every week. Learn about marketing and promotion so you understand what sponsors are looking for in a spokes person and the message they want to convey.

[RyanGreener]

Curious perspective from a bystander, do you guys recommend staying in karting because of the cost benefit of the racecraft you learn? For the most part, I'm told that driving a kart has some similar fundamentals but does not really drive like a car.

[LenFC11]

Most guys who do well in cars also kart. It's great for race craft and conditioning

If you can run at the pointy end of national/ skusa event in a tag kart you will do well in cars

[RyanGreener]

Most guys who do well in cars also kart. It's great for race craft and conditioning

If you can run at the pointy end of national/ skusa event in a tag kart you will do well in cars

What would you suggest for people who already started racing in cars?

[problemchild]

Staying in karts would be good if you have a program in place to do for another year or so, rather than starting another temporary program. If you want to race cars, and you are not part of a very good kart program, then you should get on with racing cars.

Depending on your technical background, and the technical expertise of your crew, learning to prepare and race a car is generally a multi-year program, as well as learning the racecar driving process. While I started in FV, and believe it is a great place to start, if you want to be racing a front-running F1600 car in the short-term, spending several years in FV may not be the best path. You might as well start in a F1600 car and be acquiring parts, tools and expertise with those cars, even if not as a front runner or with a winning car.

The karters that have an immediate impact in cars buy rides with Pro teams. Sometimes, on rare occasions, they have fathers and friends who set up their own program. With really good funding, and very capable crew, the new driver may get competitive in a year or less. That is rare.

The Pro teams have been going to the same tracks with the same cars for years. They have data, video, and expertise. Their service often costs 3X what the serious DIY racer spends. There is a reason those teams exist and are successful.

Perhaps a (halfway) alternative would be renting a good FV ride in the Challenge Cup or NEFV Series. Advantage Motorsport runs programs of the quality I mention above. There are other rentals available in Challenge Cup which would be advantageous as that Series shares the same venues with the Pro F1600 Series. One year of that would get you familiar with the tracks, the car racing process, and would be loads of fun. You may even decide the value is such that you will stay racing in that Series. I suggest these Series in preference to trying to do a DIY effort in National FV. You might as well just start in FF than do that.

Full disclosure. I run a Pro F1600 operation supporting the FRP F1600 Series, SCCA SuperTour/Majors, and Canadian F1600 events.

[Westroc]

Very first thing. If you are shy or scared to approach just about any guy in the pits about talking to him don't be. MAKE yourself do it! Like your Dad just kicked you in the arse. Go up dude. I find this over and over. Some of the nicest people are there you are going to find.Personally I could care less if you ask what you think it's a stupid question ask it.
As far driving the car you will be surprised I know zip about FVee but FF and FC the first thing is you need to slow down your hands. The heat inside the car is quite a bit more and WAY longer. Racecraft: You know about Noreberg right. PSL factory guy and won tons. Think you are as good? I am told he has a full ride and racecraft. Rate his results against yours. Get the idea. Once you go to the track have the balls to ask to sign in as crew. He will maybe say yes just as long as you stay out of the way. Just bring a. chair and PAY ATTENTION (which for you teeners is leave the damn phone in the car) like a hawk. You process what they do and how and when.When I went to work @ Indy Lights team the first thing they
gave me was cleaning wheels and getting tires.I was racing 10 yrs by then.Attiude equals Altitude. I said to myself well they will be pretty now and I also thought they are probably a disgrace right now. Yep right on both and yep we were on the grid and another team barked out nice to see you finally cleaned the wheels. Honest to God. Yeah I had the job and many more.

[LenFC11]

What would you suggest for people who already started racing in cars?

In my opinion a TAG kart. Usually has the best competition and strong fields

[RyanGreener]

In my opinion a TAG kart. Usually has the best competition and strong fields

Haha, in other words, whether you're karting now or in cars now, karting is always the answer?

[Chris Livengood]

At that budget, you can forget formula cars.

TAG karting is dead at all but the top levels, and TAG in it's original sense is basically is gone. Single (make) engine classes have taken over. Still, a decent top level 125cc kart is like $8k, then you have operating expenses beyond that. The guys who are good have 5 engines on a shelf at $4k each. A top level karting program starts at like $100k annually. A top level FF program is not that much more expensive, in fact, there are probably some mid level programs that are cheaper.

All of that said, karting is way more competitive than the majority of car racing, even at the local levels. Karting locally can be done on the cheap, with a nice used kart and some determination $10k will provide a fantastic karting season.

In summary, unless you have lots of cash, karting is most definitely the answer.

[jimmy neutron]

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[Jamesbe]

New way into pro racing is become a top level sim racer. Way cheaper tons of dedication and time a good sim setup will be $3k ish, maybe more if you go high level gear.

But it's not as thrilling that's for sure.

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

[problemchild]

OMG. The guy wants to race real race cars on a real life-size race track like Watkins Glen or Lime Rock.
This is a car racing forum. Why would people be telling him not to race cars?

When we started, most of us could not afford it either. It made no sense. We did it anyway. We were racers! Perhaps racers no more but we are still on the car racing forum today!

We are not his parents.
Let's help the guy race cars!

[John Robinson II]

Try and get a Swift DB1.
It will be a lot better, they are about 15k with a kent motor.
I recommend getting a job if your parent's budget is 10k.

Jimmy, when are you starting your job?

[Matt Clark]

with a $10k budget for the car, your only real choice is FV with NEFV or Challenge Cup (which is even better on tire budgets).

one thing I did not see, is what is your operating budget then?
if you cannot afford about $1000 per weekend of running (travel costs, entry fees, wear & tear on the car, etc) then you unfortunately cannot even afford any formula cars yet.

with that said, I was in your shoes not that many years ago. being young & very limited in experience, a F1600 is probably gonna be over your head for a bit. get a FV & learn what formula car racing is about, then look at moving up after you are used to it. there are a TON of hidden expenses you have no idea about yet. and you will have more fun with FV in the meantime. the last thing you want to happen, is to scrape & barely afford a car, then go thru all the frustration of never being able to afford a proper effort.

[Robins Ken]

Rent a decent FV and go from there. Experiencing tracks and racing in a pack will get you on the learning curve. If it works out buy a front running Vee and run it yourself.

A sub $10k FF will be a frustrating money pit in your case.

Good luck.

with a $10k budget for the car, your only real choice is FV with NEFV or Challenge Cup (which is even better on tire budgets).

one thing I did not see, is what is your operating budget then?
if you cannot afford about $1000 per weekend of running (travel costs, entry fees, wear & tear on the car, etc) then you unfortunately cannot even afford any formula cars yet.

with that said, I was in your shoes not that many years ago. being young & very limited in experience, a F1600 is probably gonna be over your head for a bit. get a FV & learn what formula car racing is about, then look at moving up after you are used to it. there are a TON of hidden expenses you have no idea about yet. and you will have more fun with FV in the meantime. the last thing you want to happen, is to scrape & barely afford a car, then go thru all the frustration of never being able to afford a proper effort.

[GAC]

An option to FV would be a Formula 500. There are a couple of decent F500s for sale right now that are less than $10k, and the lap times are very similar to FF, which is much quicker than FV. It would also be more similar to the karts you have been running, so you might have an easier time transitioning to one of them. I have driven and owned both a F5 and FFs, and the F5 was a good car.

Also, if you keep your eyes open, every once in a while a decent, running FF will show up for 10K or less. If you have some patience, you may find one. But, it will not be competitive in PRO F1600. You would have to be ok with running at the back or running in club racing. You could use it to refine your skills until you find more money to buy a more competitive car.