The new allowances for the Pinto should make a difference. It may take some time to develop the new combination but they will be in the hunt as soon as someone gets the combo close.
The new allowances for the Pinto should make a difference. It may take some time to develop the new combination but they will be in the hunt as soon as someone gets the combo close.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Pinto Upgrades
Not likely.Originally Posted by Jnovak
Weber 38?
Does anyone here have info or feedback regarding the 38? I'm curious to know what jets and emulsion tubes were found to work well? You can pm me if you prefer.
Thanks,
Jim Gustafson
OK sportsfans,
4.5 years after i started this thread...
Here is a picture of the comparison between the old and new legal SCCA parts.
Old short rod and tall piston on the bottom of picture.
New long rod and short piston on the top of picture.
You'll probably get about double the ring and cylinder sleeve life using these new parts. A no brainer.
Why care about the Pinto almost 50 years later? Because for the beginner or budget minded racer the pinto is a cool way to go. If you aren't afraid of wrenching it's an easy engine to keep running on the regional level. No ECU, no submerged electric fuel pump, no injectors to send off for cleaning. Don't get me wrong, the zetec or MZR is better, but the bang for the buck for the budget minded, the pinto can produce a lot of fun.
Look at the current boom in S2 racing using the pinto.
Only half a piston!
I spent last weekend sorting out problems/gremlins after a tear down and re-assembly.Because for the beginner or budget minded racer the pinto is a cool way to go.
I introduced myself to another local racer that I had not met before and explained why I missed a session and that I was going to adjust the cam timing. In reply I was asked if that was something I could do from the cockpit.
We don't send fighter pilots or astronauts up without a working knowledge of their aircraft but we have no problem with racers not having a clue. I found it sad.
But that sadness was replaced by the pride of knowing I can visualize every nut, bolt, bearing, gear, etc. and their interactions whenever I accelerate, turn, shift or brake. I feel sad for those that don't get the complete experience of this sport.
Yep, it may be a PITA sometimes, but on my budget I can race this.
Kinda like a Kent powered FF.
Stonebridge Sports & Classics ltd
15 Great Pasture Rd Danbury, CT. 06810 (203) 744-1120
www.cryosciencetechnologies.com
Cryogenic Processing · REM-ISF Processing · Race Prep & Driver Development
BTW - I could adjust the cam timing of my 2L MZR / MoTeC from the cockpit if I wanted to.
And you know how that works....BTW - I could adjust the cam timing of my 2L MZR / MoTeC from the cockpit if I wanted to.
This driver was in a 93 VD Pinto nearly identical to my 94. My point is: do you know what you're driving?
I can't imagine not wanting to know and understand.
Pinto Engine
The Pinto will not make the same HP or Torque curve the Zetec makes. The Zetec dyno sheet from a well known engine builder on a Zetec motor that ran at the run off's in 2018 that finished in the top 10 had a HP and Torque curve that was as flat as a table top from 5000rpm to 7000rpm making over 150 hp. It is impossible to get a carburetor to do that you have to pick your sweet spot bottom mid or top end you can't have it all with a carb.
I would like to have my question answered as to why the Zetec has a 8 lb flywheel and the pinto 10 lb flywheel. If the Pinto had the 8 lb flywheel and the Zetec the 10 lb flywheel chances are they maybe a little closer out the hole or at least allow the Pinto to run the same 8 lb flywheel. Not quite sure why anyone would object to helping the Pinto it is a cheap fix that only helps the bottom end and has no advantage on the top end. +-$400 for a flywheel verses $2000 for pistons rods carb plus a rebuild.
Anyone got a dyno sheet from a Zetec or a long stroke Pinto? Here is mine from a regular Pinto with the upgraded cam rebuilt by Farley in July. I know dyno's vary, but it would still be good to compare curves. anyone willing to share?
162 hp at redline. Yee Haw!
You shouldn't have shown what a lot of us knew.
Somebody will start wanting to slow pintos down.
Here is a long rod pinto off of our dyno with all the legal updates.I think this would run with a zetec well.
In my case it doesn't necessarily show on the track! With a faster driver it would be a different situation, but I do enjoy it.162 hp at redline. Yee Haw!
You shouldn't have shown what a lot of us knew.
Somebody will start wanting to slow pintos down.
Word is that sealed Zetecs in the pro series vary from 151 to 153. Just saying...
Looks like the real problem is only that people aren't going racing with the rule set they have.
It would be interesting to see a top driver in a car powered by one to see what happens against the Zetecs.
Here is a long rod pinto off of our dyno with all the legal updates.I think this would run with a zetec well.
Niki, the last great pinto pilot, went off to build things out of concrete.
But, flashing back to 2005. I can picture Cole in their DB-6 with wings and 153 HP. Certainly would be interesting.
A great test would be 2 2001 VDs. Same driver, same tires, etc.
Added:
Thinking about this more I'd prefer a test with an average driver. Consistent but average.
After all, who is the guy choosing between the pinto and the zetec. We're not looking for records, just the advantage of one engine over another.
A top driver would probably yield too close a result.
Last edited by BeerBudgetRacing; 01.23.19 at 8:09 PM.
Best Pinto dyno results I ever saw (Farley's), but there seems to be variation in the dynos. The QS one looks pretty good too.
If someone's got a good Pinto FC at a reasonable price, I'm interested. Mid-to-Southeast US.
I am looking for a car... reviewing FB, FC, and PFM cars. But at this point in life I'd be happy tooling around in a cheaper Pinto FC with analog dash.
The SE-3 that was just put up for sale should work nicely!
Too tight! Thanks for pointing it out.
I am definitely looking forward to getting my RF97's Pinto engine back with the latest upgrades soon. I'll post a dyno sheet when available.
Curious as to why the curves don't cross at the magic 5250 on this motor.
Pinto Engine
I will post a dyno sheet of a Zetec when i get it for a comparison on hp and torque curve but i'm still want an answer to my question about the flywheel weights as a cheap fix to help improve Pinto out the hole grunt. This isn't about hp numbers or which dyno can or engine can out hp the other or what driver can make a Pinto keep up with a Zetec.
The reality is the Zetec engines being built are cheater engines according to the SCCA rules that no blueprinting is allowed and aren't being enforced so why the strangle hold on the Pinto to be legal and force the owns to spend thousands of dollars in costly upgrades that are for one limit to one size piston. Not like we can just go to the junkyard and pickup a bunch of blocks and cranks or cylinder heads for the Pinto like you can the Zetec.
Something appears off with the numbers in general.
Power = Torque * RPM / 5252
Torque = Power / RPM * 5252
RPM = Power / Torque * 5252
With the data in the window (I assume that is the peak hp and the associated torque with the RPM at which the peak power occurred)
153.2 <> 115.9 * 6593.9 / 5252
Either the hp = 145.1 (115.9 * 6593.9 / 5252) or torque = 122.0 (153.2 / 6593.9 * 5252) or RPM = 6942.2 (153.2 / 115.9 * 5252)
Or... the data in that window is not what I think it is.
Eric (math is fun) Little
154 for Al head, 32/36, std cam, std rods, legal flywheel, from Butler's
The torque curve appears to be shifted upward to make it more easily visible. I've noticed the same on each of the QS dyno sheets I've received. Otherwise, the torque signal isn't on the chart.
That sheet is scaled for HP not TQ.
Flywheel...
I sort of remember the history.
A few years back we attempted to improve the Pinto. The new cam, adjustable pulley, lighter flywheel, etc, etc.
Elite was selling a professionally made flywheel that I believe was 10 lb.
And a bunch of us who were lightening the stock ones on lathes thought that 10 lb was about the safe limit before they would start exploding.
So... the committee picked 10 lb.
That way the do-it-yourself guys would have an inexpensive option.
Double jeopardy... If we picked a unit that was lighter than 10 lb, then the masses would scream that we were forcing them to have to buy an expensive unit. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Flaming became one of the reasons a lot of experienced racers have retired from volunteering on rules committees.
Which is why I recommend the Zetec min weight be increased.
This is a typical January thread. The age old pinto vs. zetec debate.
Think about this. The committee, when poling the engine builders a few years back, came to the conclusion that the new rules set really is close to making the pinto the over dog. Increase the combustion ratio a tick and it would be for sure.
It is the opinion of many that if a new rules pinto were installed in a modern car, and you install one of the top drivers it would be very competitive.
We are about as close as you can get matching an iron 2 valve engine to a aluminum 4 valve engine.
There are some that believe it is time to move forward again, maybe a 1.5 liter with a small turbo...Something that reflects more current technology.
Today we are at the point that current production engines exceed the power of what were state-of-the-art race engines a few years ago.
For example... Take FIA rules for formula cars. If you exceed 300 HP then the chassis must meet the higher F! style crash standards.
Many current production 2 liter motors must be de-tuned to stay under that threshold.
Seems crazy to be spending tons to replicate old Toyota engines for FA at very high dollars, when crate/junk yard engines are available.
As always... YMMV
I agree. My new rules Pinto is night and day from the last gen one.This is a typical January thread. The age old pinto vs. zetec debate.
It is the opinion of many that if a new rules pinto were installed in a modern car, and you install one of the top drivers it would be very competitive.
Thanks Erik. I have to admit, that makes me more curious. I am not an engine builder but I do have a pretty decent background in math. So I hope you don't mind educating me on this.
If power is a calculation that is not directly measured and torque and RPM are directly measured, what is being scaled, how, and why to produce numbers in the tables that will not compute to the formula for power?
Sorry to be a dunce but I really do enjoy learning and I am guessing that I may not be the only one that does not understand this scaling (if I am, then perhaps I am the same guy that asked Beerbudget if he adjusts cam timing from the cockpit. I can but I have to loosen the arm restraints a lot to get to it)
Thanks
Eric Little
We have a custom CDS data system Peter made for us on our dyno. It plots the HP and TQ on different graphs so to read the actual TQ value I need to tab over to the tq scale.The power is calculated the same way it is just displayed on 2 different graphs and I didnt feel like scanning 2 sheets.So your right with both curves on the HP scale they do not cross in the normal place I should have cut the TQ curve out and posted a separate sheet for it.
Thanks Erik. I have to admit, that makes me more curious. I am not an engine builder but I do have a pretty decent background in math. So I hope you don't mind educating me on this.
If power is a calculation that is not directly measured and torque and RPM are directly measured, what is being scaled, how, and why to produce numbers in the tables that will not compute to the formula for power?
Sorry to be a dunce but I really do enjoy learning and I am guessing that I may not be the only one that does not understand this scaling (if I am, then perhaps I am the same guy that asked Beerbudget if he adjusts cam timing from the cockpit. I can but I have to loosen the arm restraints a lot to get to it
Thanks
Eric Little
The scale on the Y-axis is for HP. No numbers for TQ curve plotted. In other words, the motor did not make 155TQ at 5200 RPM nor did it make 151TQ at 5800.Thanks Erik. I have to admit, that makes me more curious. I am not an engine builder but I do have a pretty decent background in math. So I hope you don't mind educating me on this.
If power is a calculation that is not directly measured and torque and RPM are directly measured, what is being scaled, how, and why to produce numbers in the tables that will not compute to the formula for power?
Sorry to be a dunce but I really do enjoy learning and I am guessing that I may not be the only one that does not understand this scaling (if I am, then perhaps I am the same guy that asked Beerbudget if he adjusts cam timing from the cockpit. I can but I have to loosen the arm restraints a lot to get to it
Thanks
Eric Little
Last edited by Daryl DeArman; 01.24.19 at 1:27 PM.
Correct it is only plotted for HP
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